NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
145
43%
Eastern Orthodox
20
6%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
1
0%
Anglican/Episcopalian
20
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
40
12%
Methodist
5
1%
Baptist
30
9%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
27
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
13
4%
Other Christian
38
11%
 
Total votes : 339

User avatar
Auristania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1021
Founded: Aug 12, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:38 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
New Visayan Islands wrote:Are we assuming that Moscow is the Third Rome in this scenario?


Purely for the memes of course. :)

No. British Empire is 5th Rome. USA is 6th Rome

The prophecy that Moscow is 3rd Rome defines that 4th Rome shall never be. 4th Rome is Holy Roman Empire which is defined as neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, This proves that HRE never be-ed
Last edited by Auristania on Mon Jun 01, 2020 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:36 pm

Auristania wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:I mention this only because it's a subject that interests me, and not as an enforcement of anything:
Virtually everyone in the world has Jewish ancestry. Because Judaism is an old religion.

That thing you've heard about everyone in Europe being descended from Charlemagne - because: math - doesn't just apply to him. Because the number of ancestors you have doubles with each generation you go back, you don't have to go back that many generations before you have just an astronomical number of ancestors.

So by the time of Charlemagne this is enough, that every European ought to be related to him through at least two different lines. And a plurality of non-Europeans are likely to be descended from him as well. Judaism is - very conservatively - at least a thousand years older than that, and there were and are a lot of Jews.

So you have a Jewish ancestor. I can basically guarantee it. You have lots, probably. And there's a pretty good chance you share most of them with most of the other people in this thread. Because: math.

This is a mathematical truth. So the Jews made a rule: it's gotta be descent by mother's mother's mother etc all the way back to count as actually Jewish.

12 apostles, 11 were Jewish, Judas was Canaanite.


no he was not. Judas was Jewish too. Seriously these myths to distinguish Judas an "inferior" race, are despicable.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Neanderthaland
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5913
Founded: Sep 10, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Neanderthaland » Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:42 pm

Auristania wrote:
Dogmeat wrote:I mention this only because it's a subject that interests me, and not as an enforcement of anything:
Virtually everyone in the world has Jewish ancestry. Because Judaism is an old religion.

That thing you've heard about everyone in Europe being descended from Charlemagne - because: math - doesn't just apply to him. Because the number of ancestors you have doubles with each generation you go back, you don't have to go back that many generations before you have just an astronomical number of ancestors.

So by the time of Charlemagne this is enough, that every European ought to be related to him through at least two different lines. And a plurality of non-Europeans are likely to be descended from him as well. Judaism is - very conservatively - at least a thousand years older than that, and there were and are a lot of Jews.

So you have a Jewish ancestor. I can basically guarantee it. You have lots, probably. And there's a pretty good chance you share most of them with most of the other people in this thread. Because: math.

This is a mathematical truth. So the Jews made a rule: it's gotta be descent by mother's mother's mother etc all the way back to count as actually Jewish.

12 apostles, 11 were Jewish, Judas was Canaanite.

Of course he was :roll:
Ug make fire. Mod ban Ug.

User avatar
Sundiata
Minister
 
Posts: 2594
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Sundiata » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:43 am

God didn't create evil, he permits it for a greater good.
Gender: Male
Religion: Catholic (Opus Dei)
Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
Economics: Rerum Novarum (The Encyclical)
Alignment: Lawful Good

"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva (Founder of Opus Dei)

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:49 am

Sundiata wrote:God didn't create evil, he permits it for a greater good.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:01 am

Menassa wrote:
Sundiata wrote:God didn't create evil, he permits it for a greater good.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


There's a couple ways of interpreting that.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
New Visayan Islands
Minister
 
Posts: 2868
Founded: Jan 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Visayan Islands » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:04 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


There's a couple ways of interpreting that.

One of which can be paralleled in Newton's Third Law: for every good, there is an equal and opposite evil. Chilling if one presumes the same.
Embassy program of the NVI
Time zone: GMT+8
For details on the man behind NVI, click here.

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:07 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


There's a couple ways of interpreting that.

In a way that shows God does not 'create evil?'
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:39 am

Menassa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
There's a couple ways of interpreting that.

In a way that shows God does not 'create evil?'


Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
New Visayan Islands
Minister
 
Posts: 2868
Founded: Jan 31, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby New Visayan Islands » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:48 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote:In a way that shows God does not 'create evil?'


Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.

So TL;DR: God does not so much create evil as He unmasks it for all to see.

Did I get that right?
Embassy program of the NVI
Time zone: GMT+8
For details on the man behind NVI, click here.

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:58 am

New Visayan Islands wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.

So TL;DR: God does not so much create evil as He unmasks it for all to see.

Did I get that right?


Yes, but also that evil can be a tangential effect. Take Pharoah right? Scripture tells us God hardened Pharaoh's heart, but it also says Pharoah hardened his own heart. On the surface that appears contradictory, but really it makes sense. Pharoah hardened his own heart, but the hardening was a reaction to God's actions. God doesn't create evil, so much as Evil's existence is inherently tied to God's existence, the same way Cold is directly related to Heat.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:16 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote:In a way that shows God does not 'create evil?'


Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.

It seems that the word being used in Isaiah for 'create' is the exact same word that is used in Genesis to show God's creation of things like, light, animals, and man. As in Isaiah 45 where God is showing Cyrus that he is the master of all things, good and evil are totally in God's control. The same God that will "straighten the crooked paths" (45:2) is the same one who makes peace and creates evil.

You could further argue that Genesis 1: does not specifically say that God 'created' darkness because the darkness was already there when he created light. As 1:1 says "In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth" and 1:2 says "the darkness was on the face of the deep" so then God separates light from the darkness that is already there. I don't believe that Genesis 1 necessarily shows that 'Darkness is the absent of light' and darkness is not a thing to be created.

It seems that in this discussion there are two philosophical points that you can follow. Either Evil is the absence of Good or Evil is a specific thing. Regardless of your philosophical opinion on that, God's point in Isaiah is that whatever 'evil' is. He creates it and he is in control of it.

Now you will say 'God creating an absence is a contradiction!' to which I will posit that it needn't be for all the reasons you have said above. If we assume that evil is the absence of Good, by God creating Good he has shown/created evil. Now obviously this doesn't mean God wants evil, as I am sure you know, just that he controls it.

Further, as I am certain you know, the picture painted by the OT is that God (not a man, angel, devil etc.) is fully in control of everything in the universe, including Evil. Which, whatever it is, he 'created.'
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55072
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:27 am

Menassa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.

It seems that the word being used in Isaiah for 'create' is the exact same word that is used in Genesis to show God's creation of things like, light, animals, and man. As in Isaiah 45 where God is showing Cyrus that he is the master of all things, good and evil are totally in God's control. The same God that will "straighten the crooked paths" (45:2) is the same one who makes peace and creates evil.

You could further argue that Genesis 1: does not specifically say that God 'created' darkness because the darkness was already there when he created light. As 1:1 says "In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth" and 1:2 says "the darkness was on the face of the deep" so then God separates light from the darkness that is already there. I don't believe that Genesis 1 necessarily shows that 'Darkness is the absent of light' and darkness is not a thing to be created.

It seems that in this discussion there are two philosophical points that you can follow. Either Evil is the absence of Good or Evil is a specific thing. Regardless of your philosophical opinion on that, God's point in Isaiah is that whatever 'evil' is. He creates it and he is in control of it.

Now you will say 'God creating an absence is a contradiction!' to which I will posit that it needn't be for all the reasons you have said above. If we assume that evil is the absence of Good, by God creating Good he has shown/created evil. Now obviously this doesn't mean God wants evil, as I am sure you know, just that he controls it.

Further, as I am certain you know, the picture painted by the OT is that God (not a man, angel, devil etc.) is fully in control of everything in the universe, including Evil. Which, whatever it is, he 'created.'

I think the problem is that we have to see what the source of both is. If all good comes from God, all evil comes from the Devil. That means all good is created by the vastly superior, infinite being. Evil can only be good twisted into something else. God absolutely has control over everything in the universe, including evil, but He created the Devil as a good Angel who then fell by himself. God allowed this. But the Devil can never overcome God. Thus evil can never truly overcome good. That’s the difference.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Minister
 
Posts: 2037
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:15 pm

Auristania wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Purely for the memes of course. :)

No. British Empire is 5th Rome. USA is 6th Rome

The prophecy that Moscow is 3rd Rome defines that 4th Rome shall never be. 4th Rome is Holy Roman Empire which is defined as neither Holy nor Roman nor an Empire, This proves that HRE never be-ed


I’m not letting a Republic become the 6th Rome. We’ll skip the 6th and go straight to the 7th Rome - Bangkok.
  1. Anglo-Catholic
    Anglican
  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Economically Centre-left
  4. Asperger
    Syndrome
  5. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:21 pm

Menassa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Sure. Take the first phrase right I form the light, and create darkness." But we know that darkness doesn't really exist, rather darkness is the absence of light. In effect the concept of darkness doesn't exist without light. God created darkness by separating night and day:

"And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness."


Technically God didn't create darkness as darkness is absence of light, but in creating light He caused the Darkness to be known.

The same can be understood when reading the second phrase "I make peace and create evil." The theme is the same: by creating the one, the other is defined.

Now the word for peace here is Shalom which you know doesn't really mean martial peace, but the peace/harmony that comes from uniting oneself to God, and God's will. Given the context of Isaiah 45, explaining to the Jews why the Babylonian Diaspora happened, it makes sense that we can understand that the evil here is the wickedness that is the inverse of uniting one's self to God, not evil that is created directly by God.

By defining what shalom is, we also know what anti-shalom is. And ultimately it is defined through the Covenant. By adhering to the covenant, Israel prospered. But when Israel deviated from the Covenant, they suffered. Not because God created that suffering, but rather he pulled back His providence as the Covenant have been violated.

God doesn't directly create evil in the same way that we would say he created the Universe. Rather God defines evil when he makes himself known, evil abounds when God pulls back his providence.

Which is ultimately what Sundiata meant here. God does not directly create evil, he makes no actions that are evil. But neither does he snuff evil out, allowing it to permit for ,which we have faith is, a divine purpose.

It seems that the word being used in Isaiah for 'create' is the exact same word that is used in Genesis to show God's creation of things like, light, animals, and man. As in Isaiah 45 where God is showing Cyrus that he is the master of all things, good and evil are totally in God's control. The same God that will "straighten the crooked paths" (45:2) is the same one who makes peace and creates evil.

You could further argue that Genesis 1: does not specifically say that God 'created' darkness because the darkness was already there when he created light. As 1:1 says "In the beginning God created Heaven and Earth" and 1:2 says "the darkness was on the face of the deep" so then God separates light from the darkness that is already there. I don't believe that Genesis 1 necessarily shows that 'Darkness is the absent of light' and darkness is not a thing to be created.


Except that's entirely observable from our POV. Darkness is the absence of light, the absence of photons to reflect off surfaces and to interact with the optic nerve creating vision. Just like Cold is not actually a thing, but rather the absence of Heat. We don't add cold during refrigeration, rather we remove the heat.

It seems that in this discussion there are two philosophical points that you can follow. Either Evil is the absence of Good or Evil is a specific thing. Regardless of your philosophical opinion on that, God's point in Isaiah is that whatever 'evil' is. He creates it and he is in control of it.
But that's not an issue you can just brush aside, as the what has huge ramifications on the philosophy.

Now you will say 'God creating an absence is a contradiction!' to which I will posit that it needn't be for all the reasons you have said above. If we assume that evil is the absence of Good, by God creating Good he has shown/created evil. Now obviously this doesn't mean God wants evil, as I am sure you know, just that he controls it.
Did God control Cain when he murdered Able? Did the Babylonians sack Judah in the name of God? No. To say that God controls evil is misleading, as it implies God directs the evil. Rather God dispels the evil, and keeps it at bay. Just as light casts out the darkness, the darkness returns when the light leaves.



Further, as I am certain you know, the picture painted by the OT is that God (not a man, angel, devil etc.) is fully in control of everything in the universe, including Evil. Which, whatever it is, he 'created.'

I would disagree. The OT, while portraying God as All Powerful and the origin of all Creation, the goes out of its way to point out that God is in fact not the creator of evil, but rather is creation not conforming to God.


God did not cause Adam and Eve to Fall, the serpent did.
Cain did not murder Abel at God's command, he was jealous of Abel's favor. God didnt flood the world because Humanity was doing the evil he directed, but because the world specifically wasn't doing the Good he directed and Noah was the only guy who was.

Isaac was warned not to dwell in Egypt, Jacob didn't really get the memo.

Israel had an issue with worshiping outside the temple, and because they broke covenant with God, the Assyrians were able to defeat them.

Judah fell to the Babylonians because they broke Covenant with God.

It is technically correct to say that God controls evil, but it must be understood how God controls evil. Not by directing it, but by dispelling it. These concepts are very important to understand, because if not its very easy to come to the conclusion that God directs evil. I mean *gestures at all of Calvinism*
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Minister
 
Posts: 2037
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:33 pm

Menassa wrote:
Sundiata wrote:God didn't create evil, he permits it for a greater good.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


Assuming it refers to evil then the antithetical nature of the comparison no longer works, because the opposite of peace is not evil, but adversity. Which is an acceptable, and contextual, use of the term ra.
  1. Anglo-Catholic
    Anglican
  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Economically Centre-left
  4. Asperger
    Syndrome
  5. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:21 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Menassa wrote: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7)


Assuming it refers to evil then the antithetical nature of the comparison no longer works, because the opposite of peace is not evil, but adversity. Which is an acceptable, and contextual, use of the term ra.

Ra always means 'evil.'
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:30 pm

Tarsonis wrote:It is technically correct to say that God controls evil, but it must be understood how God controls evil. Not by directing it, but by dispelling it. These concepts are very important to understand, because if not its very easy to come to the conclusion that God directs evil. I mean *gestures at all of Calvinism*

I felt that our other conversations were tertiary when this is the exact point I would like to address. Whether or not evil exists ontologically as a 'created' thing or a 'derived' thing is not entirely important because it is either way under the control of God. I never said that God acts in an evil way or does things that are evil. God 'created' evil for a purpose just as he 'created' light for its purposes and darkness for its purposes. Evil has a very important purposes in God's general schema of the world, that thing which humans must rule over (Genesis 4:6) as God already has plenty of mindless of robots (angels) who worship him.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55072
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:34 pm

Menassa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:It is technically correct to say that God controls evil, but it must be understood how God controls evil. Not by directing it, but by dispelling it. These concepts are very important to understand, because if not its very easy to come to the conclusion that God directs evil. I mean *gestures at all of Calvinism*

I felt that our other conversations were tertiary when this is the exact point I would like to address. Whether or not evil exists ontologically as a 'created' thing or a 'derived' thing is not entirely important because it is either way under the control of God. I never said that God acts in an evil way or does things that are evil. God 'created' evil for a purpose just as he 'created' light for its purposes and darkness for its purposes. Evil has a very important purposes in God's general schema of the world, that thing which humans must rule over (Genesis 4:6) as God already has plenty of mindless of robots (angels) who worship him.

Not sure if angels with intelligences high above ours would be considered 'mindless robots'. Unless we're talking about Neon Genesis Evangelion.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:59 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Menassa wrote:I felt that our other conversations were tertiary when this is the exact point I would like to address. Whether or not evil exists ontologically as a 'created' thing or a 'derived' thing is not entirely important because it is either way under the control of God. I never said that God acts in an evil way or does things that are evil. God 'created' evil for a purpose just as he 'created' light for its purposes and darkness for its purposes. Evil has a very important purposes in God's general schema of the world, that thing which humans must rule over (Genesis 4:6) as God already has plenty of mindless of robots (angels) who worship him.

Not sure if angels with intelligences high above ours would be considered 'mindless robots'. Unless we're talking about Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Angles are messengers of God to serve a single purpose with no free will.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11853
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:50 pm

Menassa wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Assuming it refers to evil then the antithetical nature of the comparison no longer works, because the opposite of peace is not evil, but adversity. Which is an acceptable, and contextual, use of the term ra.

Ra always means 'evil.'


Ehhhh, Ra technically means bad. Context dictates on whether it means moral badness, aka evil, or Natural badness, i.e calamity, pain, suffering. Nubia's comment here isn't that ra doesn't ever mean evil, but that the context of the verse leans more toward the "natural badness" interpretation.


Menassa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:It is technically correct to say that God controls evil, but it must be understood how God controls evil. Not by directing it, but by dispelling it. These concepts are very important to understand, because if not its very easy to come to the conclusion that God directs evil. I mean *gestures at all of Calvinism*

I felt that our other conversations were tertiary when this is the exact point I would like to address. Whether or not evil exists ontologically as a 'created' thing or a 'derived' thing is not entirely important because it is either way under the control of God. I never said that God acts in an evil way or does things that are evil. God 'created' evil for a purpose just as he 'created' light for its purposes and darkness for its purposes. Evil has a very important purposes in God's general schema of the world, that thing which humans must rule over (Genesis 4:6) as God already has plenty of mindless of robots (angels) who worship him.



While I agree with the underlined, the rest I would not. The Ontology of "Good" and "Evil" aren't just things we can side step, they're fundamentally involved in this issue. If we're going to say that God creates both Good and Evil, we have to agree about what Good and Evil are. They're not just terms for positive and negative, they have important mimetic properties that "positive" and "negative" don't. In Judeo/Christian ethics, Good is defined by its positional relation to to God, and evil inversely so. Moral Goodness is dictated by God, and is affixed by God's nature. Evil on the other hand, is the opposite of Godliness, it is immorality, it is Anti-God. For God to create "Evil" would mean that God is capable of immoral action, which would derail the entire system of God's immovable Goodness, as well as invalidate the existence of evil in the first place. If God created evil, it would by definition then be Good as God had created and purposed it. Thus immorality would become morality. So the question of whether or not evil is "Created" verses "derived" is incredibly important. For if evil is created then God commits evil. But if evil is derived then God does not commit evil.


Menassa wrote:
Luminesa wrote:Not sure if angels with intelligences high above ours would be considered 'mindless robots'. Unless we're talking about Neon Genesis Evangelion.

Angles are messengers of God to serve a single purpose with no free will.

Sure, but at the same time they are also persons. Individuals, with decision making abilities. The difference between us and them, in terms of will, depends on what definition of "free will" we're using. If we're using the libertarian concept of will, then the difference is that our will is free while theirs is bound. We can choose to disobey God, and to reject God entirely. Angels, and by extension demons, cannot. While they are individuals with personality and decision making abilities, their will is subjugated to God's. They cannot defy God. Even the Rabbi's acknowledge this. Hell Miltonian lore, which is the "popular" accounting of the Devil's origins, is influenced primarily by Rabbi Eliezer's account of the fall.

Now if we're using patristic ideals of will, then Angels would technically have a free will, and humans would have the subjugated will. In this context, serving God is the natural inclination of the will, while the concupiscence of the natural body to sin, binds the will and ordinates it toward sinful desires. To have free will would be to have your will freed from such concupiscence so that one can follow God without distraction.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Minister
 
Posts: 2037
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:55 pm

Menassa wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Assuming it refers to evil then the antithetical nature of the comparison no longer works, because the opposite of peace is not evil, but adversity. Which is an acceptable, and contextual, use of the term ra.

Ra always means 'evil.'


Shalom does not mean good though. Which makes the statement unbalanced when the earlier statement of contrast is light and darkness - polar opposites. Which means ra cannot be evil. As that is not the logical juxtaposition to shalom, whereas as tov would be a better contextual fit, as per Isaiah 5:20. Assuming it is evil here, rather than calamity, or adversity.

Besides, your statement is false, ra is not only used for moral evil, but also adversity as per Numbers 11:1, Numbers 22:34, Deuteronomy 17:1, Joshua 24:15, 1 Samuel 29:7, 2 Kings 4:41, Psalm 94:13, and Proverbs 25:20.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
  1. Anglo-Catholic
    Anglican
  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Economically Centre-left
  4. Asperger
    Syndrome
  5. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:04 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote:Ra always means 'evil.'


Ehhhh, Ra technically means bad. Context dictates on whether it means moral badness, aka evil, or Natural badness, i.e calamity, pain, suffering. Nubia's comment here isn't that ra doesn't ever mean evil, but that the context of the verse leans more toward the "natural badness" interpretation.

I don't believe this is the case, in every time it appears it can be aptly translated as evil. The plain meaning of the word 'ra' is bad or 'evil' as you say, anything other than that is the translator/interpreter posing what they believe fits onto the text. There are other words in Hebrew for disasters and natural calamities that are not chosen, but the word for 'evil' is. It's simple, the lord makes (oseh) peace and creates (barah) evil, the same creation that he enacted at the dawn of time.


Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote:I felt that our other conversations were tertiary when this is the exact point I would like to address. Whether or not evil exists ontologically as a 'created' thing or a 'derived' thing is not entirely important because it is either way under the control of God. I never said that God acts in an evil way or does things that are evil. God 'created' evil for a purpose just as he 'created' light for its purposes and darkness for its purposes. Evil has a very important purposes in God's general schema of the world, that thing which humans must rule over (Genesis 4:6) as God already has plenty of mindless of robots (angels) who worship him.



While I agree with the underlined, the rest I would not. The Ontology of "Good" and "Evil" aren't just things we can side step, they're fundamentally involved in this issue. If we're going to say that God creates both Good and Evil, we have to agree about what Good and Evil are. They're not just terms for positive and negative, they have important mimetic properties that "positive" and "negative" don't. In Judeo/Christian ethics, Good is defined by its positional relation to to God, and evil inversely so. Moral Goodness is dictated by God, and is affixed by God's nature. Evil on the other hand, is the opposite of Godliness, it is immorality, it is Anti-God. For God to create "Evil" would mean that God is capable of immoral action, which would derail the entire system of God's immovable Goodness, as well as invalidate the existence of evil in the first place. If God created evil, it would by definition then be Good as God had created and purposed it. Thus immorality would become morality. So the question of whether or not evil is "Created" verses "derived" is incredibly important. For if evil is created then God commits evil. But if evil is derived then God does not commit evil.

This is actually a great debate of medieval scholars both Jewish and Christian. Whether or not Evil is a thing unto itself or it is the absence of Good. Either way, it is totally in the purview of God and given his use of the word 'barah' (create) is shown that he is in control of it.

Furthermore, I wouldn't chalk anything up to the 'Judeo-Christian' ethic, there are plenty great Jewish scholars medievalists and modern ones who believe that Evil is a thing that exists in the world, a thing unto itself that was created by God.


Tarsonis wrote:
Menassa wrote:Angles are messengers of God to serve a single purpose with no free will.

Sure, but at the same time they are also persons. Individuals, with decision making abilities. The difference between us and them, in terms of will, depends on what definition of "free will" we're using. If we're using the libertarian concept of will, then the difference is that our will is free while theirs is bound. We can choose to disobey God, and to reject God entirely. Angels, and by extension demons, cannot. While they are individuals with personality and decision making abilities, their will is subjugated to God's. They cannot defy God. [...]

I wouldn't call them 'decision' making abilities as they do not decide on anything. As you said, whatever God commands the angels do and they cannot do anything that God does not want them to do. Wheras it appears that humans can.

Tarsonis wrote:Even the Rabbi's acknowledge this. Hell Miltonian lore, which is the "popular" accounting of the Devil's origins, is influenced primarily by Rabbi Eliezer's account of the fall.

Can you please expound on this?
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Menassa
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33687
Founded: Aug 11, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Menassa » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:08 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:Shalom does not mean good though. Which makes the statement unbalanced when the earlier statement of contrast is light and darkness - polar opposites. Which means ra cannot be evil. As that is not the logical juxtaposition to shalom, whereas as tov would be a better contextual fit, as per Isaiah 5:20. Assuming it is evil here, rather than calamity, or adversity.

Besides, your statement is false, ra is not only used for moral evil, but also adversity as per Numbers 11:1, Numbers 22:34, Deuteronomy 17:1, Joshua 24:15, 1 Samuel 29:7, 2 Kings 4:41, Psalm 94:13, and Proverbs 25:20.

Menassa wrote:I don't believe this is the case, in every time it appears it can be aptly translated as evil. The plain meaning of the word 'ra' is bad or 'evil' as you say, anything other than that is the translator/interpreter posing what they believe fits onto the text. There are other words in Hebrew for disasters and natural calamities that are not chosen, but the word for 'evil' is. [...]
Last edited by Menassa on Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Radical Monotheist
Their hollow inheritance.
This is my god and I shall exalt him
Jewish Discussion Thread בְּ
"A missionary uses the Bible like a drunk uses a lamppost, not so much for illumination, but for support"
"Imagine of a bunch of Zulu tribesmen told Congress how to read the Constitution, that's how it feels to a Jew when you tell us how to read our bible"
"God said: you must teach, as I taught, without a fee."
"Against your will you are formed, against your will you are born, against your will you live, against your will you die, and against your will you are destined to give a judgement and accounting before the king, king of all kings..."

User avatar
Lower Nubia
Minister
 
Posts: 2037
Founded: Dec 22, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lower Nubia » Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:22 pm

Menassa wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:Shalom does not mean good though. Which makes the statement unbalanced when the earlier statement of contrast is light and darkness - polar opposites. Which means ra cannot be evil. As that is not the logical juxtaposition to shalom, whereas as tov would be a better contextual fit, as per Isaiah 5:20. Assuming it is evil here, rather than calamity, or adversity.

Besides, your statement is false, ra is not only used for moral evil, but also adversity as per Numbers 11:1, Numbers 22:34, Deuteronomy 17:1, Joshua 24:15, 1 Samuel 29:7, 2 Kings 4:41, Psalm 94:13, and Proverbs 25:20.

Menassa wrote:I don't believe this is the case, in every time it appears it can be aptly translated as evil. The plain meaning of the word 'ra' is bad or 'evil' as you say, anything other than that is the translator/interpreter posing what they believe fits onto the text. There are other words in Hebrew for disasters and natural calamities that are not chosen, but the word for 'evil' is. [...]


Ra is not an abnormal word to use for calamity, disaster, and adversity. Again, context makes the idea that ra refers to moral evil as unlikely. I refer to Psalm 34:14, where shalom is not juxtaposed to evil.
  1. Anglo-Catholic
    Anglican
  2. Socially Centre-Right
  3. Economically Centre-left
  4. Asperger
    Syndrome
  5. Graduated
    in Biochemistry
Her Region of Africa
Her Overview (WIP)
"These are they who are made like to God as far as possible, of their own free will, and by God's indwelling, and by His abiding grace. They are truly called gods, not by nature, but by participation; just as red-hot iron is called fire, not by nature, but by participation in the fire's action."
Signature Updated: 19th March, 2020

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Awesomeland012345, Bombadil, Cisairse, Majestic-12 [Bot], Neanderthaland, Nobel Hobos 2, Northern Davincia, Shrillland, South Odreria 2, The Alma Mater, The Two Jerseys, Trollgaard, Wayneactia

Advertisement

Remove ads