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Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
220
38%
Eastern Orthodox
41
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
3
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
31
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
61
11%
Methodist
11
2%
Baptist
54
9%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
46
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
25
4%
Other Christian
80
14%
 
Total votes : 572

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Fri May 22, 2020 7:53 pm

Northern Davincia wrote:
Brunswick-upon-Raritan wrote:The legalization of abortion hasn’t increased abortion. If anything, the proliferation of comprehensive sex education and access to contraceptives has brought the U.S. abortion rate to its lowest levels ever, below than what they were at when Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973. It’s based on the Fourth Amendment, which guarantees people the right to be secure in their persons from unreasonable search and seizure, the right to privacy.

To the contrary, the rates were far, far lower before Roe v. Wade. The right to privacy is irrelevant.

They didn’t say that the rates were lower after Roe v. Wade. They said that the rates of abortion are lower now than they were at Roe v. Wade, which is true.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... roe-v-wade

Unless somethings changed and I haven’t caught it anyway.

EDIT although It is worth adding that they said that the rates went down because of contraception and what not, which is kind of irrelevant to abortion but whatever I guess
Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Fri May 22, 2020 7:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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South Odreria 2
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Postby South Odreria 2 » Fri May 22, 2020 7:57 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
South Odreria 2 wrote:And what is your analogy for helping escaped slaves?


There doesn't have to be.

The point is that something gravely immoral was constitutional, and to some extent the constitution had to be bent or outright ignored in order for that to be changed.

And certainly so if the South didn't make it easier by committing mass treason.

Pretty sure slavery was gotten rid of by outlawing it in states and then changing the constitution, not by bending or ignoring it.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Fri May 22, 2020 8:00 pm

South Odreria 2 wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
There doesn't have to be.

The point is that something gravely immoral was constitutional, and to some extent the constitution had to be bent or outright ignored in order for that to be changed.

And certainly so if the South didn't make it easier by committing mass treason.

Pretty sure slavery was gotten rid of by outlawing it in states and then changing the constitution, not by bending or ignoring it.


Lincoln technically used a lot of powers he didn't have constitutionally to fight the Confederacy.

Such as, through presidential power, imprisoning Southern conspirators without trial. You can do that through a Congressional order constitutionally, but not through Presidential power.

And for the reconstruction amendments to be passed, the Southern states had to lose their status in the Union. Which only the war managed to do.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Fri May 22, 2020 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Sat May 23, 2020 10:45 am

Salus Maior wrote:As an aside, I've been reading up on St. Gregory of Nyssa as part of a Christian abolitionism essay I'm writing and his criticism of slave owning is pretty rad.

“For what price, tell me? What did you find in existence worth as much as this human nature? What price did you put on rationality? How many obols did you reckon the equivalent the likeness of God? How many staters did you get for selling the being shaped by God?”


I'd also read: "Slaves in the New Testament: Literary, Social, and Moral Dimensions" (2006) by J. Albert Harrill.
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun May 24, 2020 5:36 am

Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Sun May 24, 2020 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Sun May 24, 2020 6:11 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

It isn't really in the past.
There are still 1,121,820 reportedly active cases in the US, with around 22k new cases reported each day, in the last 3 weeks, just imagine how many infected are out there and not yet detected. (the past week had something like 1400 reported virus related deaths every day)

Then sure, not all US regions are affected in the same way, but a generalized reopening of any kind of public gathering is madness for the US at this stage.
A selective reopening would be more reasonable, even if that's still playing with fire, when the current outbreak centers don't seem to be under control, making it possible for the infection to spread to less affected zones.

That said, given how church masses usually gather only once every week, church masses look like a minor issue to me, public gathering places with a full weekly activity look far more sensitible to this issue. As there are far more chances for contact to happen there. (restaurants-pubs-clubs, public administrative offices, post offices, sport facilities, etc)

Still, the US is still too deep into the shit to be eligible to any loosening.
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Postby Luminesa » Sun May 24, 2020 9:41 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

It depends on the state. Louisiana has just started “phase 1” of reopening, but we’ve started a bit far behind other Southern states. Our churches are open, but are only allowing 25% of their normal capacity. And people are required to wear masks and to follow the CDC guidelines.

Churches should be allowed to reopen, if their state is reporting a drop or plateau of cases based on the federal guidelines for re-opening. If they are not, they can continue online services. It’s a matter of keeping people safe so that when they go to worship, they do not run the risk of getting gravely ill.
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun May 24, 2020 6:36 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?


So long as Churches follow the same protocols every other open thing is, I see no reason why not.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun May 24, 2020 7:45 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?


So long as Churches follow the same protocols every other open thing is, I see no reason why not.

Well here, churches are only allowed 10 worshipers
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun May 24, 2020 9:51 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
So long as Churches follow the same protocols every other open thing is, I see no reason why not.

Well here, churches are only allowed 10 worshipers


Which is silly, considering other places which are open allow plenty more than that.
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Postby New Visayan Islands » Sun May 24, 2020 10:43 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

It depends on the state. Louisiana has just started “phase 1” of reopening, but we’ve started a bit far behind other Southern states. Our churches are open, but are only allowing 25% of their normal capacity. And people are required to wear masks and to follow the CDC guidelines.

Churches should be allowed to reopen, if their state is reporting a drop or plateau of cases based on the federal guidelines for re-opening. If they are not, they can continue online services. It’s a matter of keeping people safe so that when they go to worship, they do not run the risk of getting gravely ill.


Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Well... this is worrying.
More than 40 churchgoers who attended a service after lockdown was eased in Germany earlier this month have contracted coronavirus, officials say.
The service was held on 10 May at a Baptist church in Frankfurt.
Church officials say they followed social distancing rules and disinfected the building ahead of the service.
Each of Germany's 16 states determines its own lockdown exit plans. Hesse, where Frankfurt located, relaxed restrictions on worship on 1 May.
Those attending services have to be kept 1.5m (5ft) apart, and provided with hand sanitiser.
Wladimir Pritzkau, the deputy head of Frankfurt's Evangelical Christian Baptist congregation, told German media that the rules were adhered to during the 20 May service.
Six of those infected were taken to hospital.

Extra worrying in fact.

...because this happens otherwise?
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Postby Lower Nubia » Mon May 25, 2020 3:51 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?


"The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Churches can't open when you have a very likely possibility of killing your neighbour. We set by example, not economic demand like bars or shops. We work in the Church to help the weakest in society - what do the weakest need? Not a deadly virus.
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon May 25, 2020 4:43 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?


No. Not for regular church services.

I would look into other ways to give support to my congregation, but I do not want to risk the spreading of the virus among my flock.

I might help the out the weak, maybe open up a few rooms in the church for victims of domestic violence, since that has increased during the lockdown. And the regular shelters in the neighbourhood also need to restrict their locations.
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Postby Luminesa » Mon May 25, 2020 4:54 am

New Visayan Islands wrote:
Luminesa wrote:It depends on the state. Louisiana has just started “phase 1” of reopening, but we’ve started a bit far behind other Southern states. Our churches are open, but are only allowing 25% of their normal capacity. And people are required to wear masks and to follow the CDC guidelines.

Churches should be allowed to reopen, if their state is reporting a drop or plateau of cases based on the federal guidelines for re-opening. If they are not, they can continue online services. It’s a matter of keeping people safe so that when they go to worship, they do not run the risk of getting gravely ill.


Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Well... this is worrying.

Extra worrying in fact.

...because this happens otherwise?

I have to wonder if it’s more virulent in some areas than others, but they could have got it some place beside the church itself. People have been going to places beside church, after all. But I do hope those people get better. It might have really been too early for Frankfurt to re-open?
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Postby Ghost in the Shell » Tue May 26, 2020 9:17 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.
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Postby New Lunenburg » Tue May 26, 2020 9:24 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.


Completely agreed, it is also disheartening (yet unsurprising) that the reopening process has laid bare the fact that many governments are totally ambivalent about the spiritual life of the people they govern.
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Postby Diopolis » Tue May 26, 2020 9:42 am

New Lunenburg wrote:
Ghost in the Shell wrote:Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.


Completely agreed, it is also disheartening (yet unsurprising) that the reopening process has laid bare the fact that many governments are totally ambivalent about the spiritual life of the people they govern.

Not to mention many princes of the church.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue May 26, 2020 10:17 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.


Killing people is a salvific matter.
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Postby Luminesa » Tue May 26, 2020 10:56 am

Ghost in the Shell wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Donald Trump is urging American churches to reopen. If you were a priest, knowing how badly the USA was hit, if you were in charge of a church, would you reopen?

Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.

The Church does have a responsibility to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life, though. Feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the people in jail, helping people who have struggled with drug addictions, running hospitals and charities...all of these things are ways the Church takes care of the physical person, as well as the spiritual.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue May 26, 2020 12:05 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Ghost in the Shell wrote:Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.

The Church does have a responsibility to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life, though. Feeding the hungry, giving drink to the thirsty, clothing the naked, visiting the people in jail, helping people who have struggled with drug addictions, running hospitals and charities...all of these things are ways the Church takes care of the physical person, as well as the spiritual.


We're also literally anti-suicide and anti-euthanasia.
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Postby New Lunenburg » Tue May 26, 2020 1:47 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:
Ghost in the Shell wrote:Without hesitation. The job of the Church is to aid the salvation of mankind, not to aid in the longevity of one's earthly life. I know too many people, myself included, who are struggling greatly without access to Mass and the sacraments.


Killing people is a salvific matter.


This assumes that churches will reopen without thorough social distancing measures in place, which has certainly not been the case in places where they have already reopened.
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue May 26, 2020 1:50 pm

New Lunenburg wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
Killing people is a salvific matter.


This assumes that churches will reopen without thorough social distancing measures in place, which has certainly not been the case in places where they have already reopened.


That fine, as long as they enforce the proper preventative measures.
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Postby Hakons » Tue May 26, 2020 2:44 pm

Dioceses in Indiana opened up this last weekend, so I can talk about this some. If the virus is receding, then you should reinstate public worship. We had pretty strict measures, but we were still able to gather for Mass again finally. I find it questionable for people to say public mass should be suspended until it’s entirely “safe.” When will that be? 15 months from now when we have vaccine? Mass is valuable. We get to be in the presence of God and consume the Holy Eucharist. That is concrete spiritual value. Online streaming doesn’t replace that. The original suspensions of public mass were laudable and necessary, but the calls to keep mass suspended even as commerce is allowed to reopen are just wrong. It seems one doesn’t value the sacraments, worship, or the Church. In the words of a bishop in Minnesota, “throughout this time Catholic charities have been feeding gatherings of hundreds of needy people. Why can’t we spiritually feed them?”

To talk about some of the health and safety measures for mass, the most conspicuous is that everyone has to wear a mask. It’s definitely a shock to say the Credo muffled through a mask, but at least you’re there. Every other row is blocked off to enforce social distancing, and family units take up one row each. We don’t sing hymns at the moment, since that’s too much exhaling. We don’t shake hands. When we great each other, you wave and imagine that they’re smiling behind the mask. Entering in and out of the Church, you sanitize from a dispenser. Our priest doesn’t greet us or process down the aisle, he starts mass by ringing a bell from the chancellery and walking to the alter from there. There is no giving of the offering, since that would have too much contact. We can give online, or drop an offering in a box by the entrance. Most importantly, we can receive the blessed Eucharist. Each pew is dismissed by an usher, and people distance themselves as they walk forward. Mask still on, you receive the host on your hand, walk a few paces, unmask, consume, remask. We don’t drink from the cup for the time being, for obvious reasons. Ever since first communion I’ve always received on the tongue, but because of health restrictions I can’t do that anymore. But, it’s still the Eucharist. Blessed be God forever.

These changes are sad. They’re hard on the faithful, who have known what mass used to be like and enjoyed it for so long. Older people, the largest group in the Church, have been told not to come. The mass obligation has been dispensed until August, so even at mass the Churches are still quieter and emptier than normal. You’re paranoid about coughing, because it rings out across the whole Church.

Still, we take up any suffering God gives us, as it is our due. For those that want to keep masses or worship services locked down, just know that we’re already sacrificing much. Consider the spiritual, mental, and emotional needs of religious people, as you would the needs of everyone.
Last edited by Hakons on Tue May 26, 2020 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Tue May 26, 2020 3:03 pm

The obvious caveat is that the virus is receding because of lockdown, not of its own accord. Opening everything up again will stop it from receding.

The fact it is receding is not evidence that lockdown should be over, but that it works.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Tue May 26, 2020 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Lunenburg
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Postby New Lunenburg » Tue May 26, 2020 3:29 pm

Lower Nubia wrote:The obvious caveat is that the virus is receding because of lockdown, not of its own accord. Opening everything up again will stop it from receding.

The fact it is receding is not evidence that lockdown should be over, but that it works.


Sweden didn’t lock down in the same manner as the UK, keeping with similar social distancing guidelines to those we saw in the week leading up to the lockdown, and the statistic for deaths per million from with Coronavirus there is 20% lower than here. That’s without even mentioning the crisis’ negative effects on personal freedom, mental health and business being mitigated somewhat by less stringent measures being taken.
Last edited by New Lunenburg on Tue May 26, 2020 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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