Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Immortan Khan]

The call for peace on both sides can be expressed legitimately. It's saying "Sure but" to a call to pray for our brothers and sisters that are facing bombing and ethnic cleansing that seems rather flippant and insincere. Also when told that peace was offered but rejected, trying to legitimize and defend said rejection further makes seem like a flippant and insincere thing.

[Tarsonis]

And I said sure, also pray for the people of Israel, who are also in the crossfire. I said pray for peace. that was all I said.
Your response to that was to go on a tirade about the evils of Israel.

Don't point fingers at me for grandstanding dude.

I'm not going to pretend your response wasn't intended to get a rise.

It wasn't, this is a complex issue with victims on every side. You're playing the victim because I'm not on your team.

Even so, I only said that Hamas had offered a ceasefire, which Israel had rejected, your response to that was to justify the rejection of the ceasefire. If you want to pray for both sides to bring peace, why support the rejection of the ceasefire?

Dude, because these events don't exist in a vacuum. They're part of a conflict that's been going on for close to a hundred years now. Hamas has used Gaza as a staging point for attacks into Israel since they took it in 97. They attack, Israel responds, Hamas cries to the international media, wash. rinse. repeat. They call for ceasefire, Israel agrees and draws down. Islamists break the cease fire, and the whole dance starts again.

It happend in 2008, 2014, and hell it just happened last year in 2020.

Them rejecting the ceasefire isn't evidence they don't want peace, it's evidence they're fed up with the cycle and are gonna "finish the fight once and for all." They know that the ceasefire will only be temporary, for Islamists and hamas to bide their time before starting the next cycle.

[Tarsonis]

The call for peace on both sides can be expressed legitimately. It's saying "Sure but" to a call to pray for our brothers and sisters that are facing bombing and ethnic cleansing that seems rather flippant and insincere. Also when told that peace was offered but rejected, trying to legitimize and defend said rejection further makes seem like a flippant and insincere thing.

Alright I guess we're doing this. I'd agree if I thought the call for ceasefire was made in the legitimate interests of peace. It's not. We know it's not, because we've seen this all before. It's a stalling tactic. Israel is fed up with it, and this time it seams they're aiming to end it once and for all. The tragedy is that it means a lot of innocent people are going to die before that happens.

[Tarsonis]

I'm not obligated to be on your side of things.

And you're not obligated to reply to every single post. You were looking for shit to start.

I wasn't. I made an earnest reply. You're just upset that I'm not on your side.

[Tarsonis]

And I said sure, also pray for the people of Israel, who are also in the crossfire. I said pray for peace. that was all I said.
Your response to that was to go on a tirade about the evils of Israel.

Don't point fingers at me for grandstanding dude.

And it is this US VS them that is the biggest problem, it turns groups of people into faceless masses.

The problem is that there are people on both sides that benefit from the violence, and regular people are the victim as always.

We just need to pray for peace, for everyone.

This. 1000%

[Punished UMN]

I'm not going to pretend your response wasn't intended to get a rise.

It wasn't, this is a complex issue with victims on every side. You're playing the victim because I'm not on your team.

Even so, I only said that Hamas had offered a ceasefire, which Israel had rejected, your response to that was to justify the rejection of the ceasefire. If you want to pray for both sides to bring peace, why support the rejection of the ceasefire?

Dude, because these events don't exist in a vacuum. They're part of a conflict that's been going on for close to a hundred years now. Hamas has used Gaza as a staging point for attacks into Israel since they took it in 97. They attack, Israel responds, Hamas cries to the international media, wash. rinse. repeat. They call for ceasefire, Israel agrees and draws down. Islamists break the cease fire, and the whole dance starts again.

It happend in 2008, 2014, and hell it just happened last year in 2020.

Them rejecting the ceasefire isn't evidence they don't want peace, it's evidence they're fed up with the cycle and are gonna "finish the fight once and for all." They know that the ceasefire will only be temporary, for Islamists and hamas to bide their time before starting the next cycle.

The ceasefires are pretty meaningless when Israel continues the building of settlements in the West bank and the expulsion of Palestinians from their homes throughout Israel.

All peace is temporary, that's not a reason to reject them. Continuing a bombing campaign largely against civilians because you're "fed up" is a shit excuse and just shows that you don't really give a shit about the people being bombed.

[Immortan Khan]

The call for peace on both sides can be expressed legitimately. It's saying "Sure but" to a call to pray for our brothers and sisters that are facing bombing and ethnic cleansing that seems rather flippant and insincere. Also when told that peace was offered but rejected, trying to legitimize and defend said rejection further makes seem like a flippant and insincere thing.

Alright I guess we're doing this. I'd agree if I thought the call for ceasefire was made in the legitimate interests of peace. It's not. We know it's not, because we've seen this all before. It's a stalling tactic. Israel is fed up with it, and this time it seams they're aiming to end it once and for all. The tragedy is that it means a lot of innocent people are going to die before that happens.

Israel routinely aggravates the situation by continuing to build settlements, ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their own land, and flat out commits murder and other abuses. Are the Palestinians not able to defend themselves from these abuses either? I don't even know why you're shilling for Israel, it's a country that is increasingly becoming hostile to our brothers and sisters with attacks on Christians going unpunished or given slaps on the wrist.

Once again however, this just furthers the notion that your call for peace on both sides was not legitimate and thus UMN is right in suspecting you're just doing it to get a rise out of him.

[Tarsonis]

UMN: Pray for Palestine.

Me: Yes. And we should pray for Isreal and for Peace.

UMN: man Fuck Israel.


Yes. That's right guys you got me. You uncovered my dastardly plot to cause conflict by calling for peace. I'm such a schemer.

[Tarsonis]

Alright I guess we're doing this. I'd agree if I thought the call for ceasefire was made in the legitimate interests of peace. It's not. We know it's not, because we've seen this all before. It's a stalling tactic. Israel is fed up with it, and this time it seams they're aiming to end it once and for all. The tragedy is that it means a lot of innocent people are going to die before that happens.

Israel routinely aggravates the situation by continuing to build settlements, ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their own land, and flat out commits murder and other abuses. Are the Palestinians not able to defend themselves from these abuses either? I don't even know why you're shilling for Israel, it's a country that is increasingly becoming hostile to our brothers and sisters with attacks on Christians going unpunished or given slaps on the wrist.

Once again however, this just furthers the notion that your call for peace on both sides was not legitimate and thus UMN is right in suspecting you're just doing it to get a rise out of him.

No what this tells me, is you're siding with him because you also side with Palestine. This is precisely why I didn't want this to be argued in here and why I said multiple times to leave it in the dedicated discussion thread. But y'all wouldn't stop. All your wining about toxicity and conflict is worthless, you court it just as much as anybody else.

[Immortan Khan]

Israel routinely aggravates the situation by continuing to build settlements, ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their own land, and flat out commits murder and other abuses. Are the Palestinians not able to defend themselves from these abuses either? I don't even know why you're shilling for Israel, it's a country that is increasingly becoming hostile to our brothers and sisters with attacks on Christians going unpunished or given slaps on the wrist.

Once again however, this just furthers the notion that your call for peace on both sides was not legitimate and thus UMN is right in suspecting you're just doing it to get a rise out of him.

No what this tells me, is you're siding with him because you also side with Palestine. This is precisely why I didn't want this to be argued in here and why I said multiple times to leave it in the dedicated discussion thread. But y'all wouldn't stop. All your wining about toxicity and conflict is worthless, you court it just as much as anybody else.

I don't mind if people genuinely call for peace on both sides. The issue is the genuineness of it and the flippant response you initially gave.

[Herzpunkt]

No what this tells me, is you're siding with him because you also side with Palestine. This is precisely why I didn't want this to be argued in here and why I said multiple times to leave it in the dedicated discussion thread. But y'all wouldn't stop. All your wining about toxicity and conflict is worthless, you court it just as much as anybody else.

I don't mind if people genuinely call for peace on both sides. The issue is the genuineness of it and the flippant response you initially gave.

lets be real, the palestinians propped up Hamas democractically, whether it was "out of survival" or not, they made that bed.

They are both equally culpable.

and you know what, maybe Christians should control it....or not lol

[Tarsonis]

No what this tells me, is you're siding with him because you also side with Palestine. This is precisely why I didn't want this to be argued in here and why I said multiple times to leave it in the dedicated discussion thread. But y'all wouldn't stop. All your wining about toxicity and conflict is worthless, you court it just as much as anybody else.

I don't mind if people genuinely call for peace on both sides. The issue is the genuineness of it and the flippant response you initially gave.

There was nothing flippant about it. You're reading into it, and since I've explained myself multiple times, I can only assume you're doing it on purpose in your quest to demonize me further.

[Luminesa]

And here we go again.....

MFW:

[Luminesa]

That's fascinating; it will be interesting to see the direction she takes her church.

Especially now, when they're worried about young people not being interested in the church.

Church attendance in Europe is rather low in many places, much due to an attitude of making worship a “private” thing and not a “community” thing in Europe. France is one example of...maybe an extreme?

[Tarsonis]

I don't mind if people genuinely call for peace on both sides. The issue is the genuineness of it and the flippant response you initially gave.

lets be real, the palestinians propped up Hamas democractically, whether it was "out of survival" or not, they made that bed.

They are both equally culpable.

and you know what, maybe Christians should control it....or not lol

There is something to be said for magnanimity in power. Isreal is seven dozen weight classes above Palestine, and should be more cognizant of the definition of "proportional response." One does question the value of responding to a 200 pound rocket with a 20 ton Lazer guided missile. And the evictions are definitely on the wrong side of the spectrum.

But we can't dismiss Hamas and the other Islamist Palestinian history of violence either. Israel and Palestine both have a right to exist and both sides are gonna have to acknowledge that before peace can happen.

[Luminesa]

I don't mind if people genuinely call for peace on both sides. The issue is the genuineness of it and the flippant response you initially gave.

lets be real, the palestinians propped up Hamas democractically, whether it was "out of survival" or not, they made that bed.

They are both equally culpable.

and you know what, maybe Christians should control it....or not lol

Hamas is not super-popular in Palestine and I don’t think they deserved to have innocent civilians caught in the fire.

Either way, I fear for many people in Palestine, including the tiny Christian communities there. We have visitors from Bethlehem who come to sell olive wood items to benefit their families. Israel’s government makes it very hard for them to visit holy sites in Jerusalem (on the other side of the strip). I fear that a very secular, rabid government is going to find a way to destroy many holy sites, and the Christian communities in both countries require prayers.

[Herzpunkt]

lets be real, the palestinians propped up Hamas democractically, whether it was "out of survival" or not, they made that bed.

They are both equally culpable.

and you know what, maybe Christians should control it....or not lol

There is something to be said for magnanimity in power. Isreal is seven dozen weight classes above Palestine, and should be more cognizant of the definition of "proportional response." One does question the value of responding to a 200 pound rocket with a 20 ton Lazer guided missile. And the evictions are definitely on the wrong side of the spectrum.

But we can't dismiss Hamas and the other Islamist Palestinian history of violence either. Israel and Palestijr both have a right to exist and both sides are gonna have to acknowledge that before peace can happen.

exactly

[Luminesa]

Israel routinely aggravates the situation by continuing to build settlements, ethnically cleanse Palestinians from their own land, and flat out commits murder and other abuses. Are the Palestinians not able to defend themselves from these abuses either? I don't even know why you're shilling for Israel, it's a country that is increasingly becoming hostile to our brothers and sisters with attacks on Christians going unpunished or given slaps on the wrist.

Once again however, this just furthers the notion that your call for peace on both sides was not legitimate and thus UMN is right in suspecting you're just doing it to get a rise out of him.

No what this tells me, is you're siding with him because you also side with Palestine. This is precisely why I didn't want this to be argued in here and why I said multiple times to leave it in the dedicated discussion thread. But y'all wouldn't stop. All your wining about toxicity and conflict is worthless, you court it just as much as anybody else.

I mean if we want to be fair, the Pope also supports Palestine having a homeland and has appealed for an end to the violence. Let’s not turn this into a, “He said, she said,” fight, we need to call for peace and for an end to genocide, and that’s it. Your response came across as hostile, theirs came across to you as “toxic”, so maybe ya’ll need a break from each other for a bit.

[Neanderthaland]

If we're going to be throwing up a big stink about comments that are probably meant well, and presented in good faith, then the whole "many of whom are our brothers" thing is a little bit frustrating. It certainly seems to imply that you should care more about the oppression and murder of innocent people when those people happen to be Christian. And I don't think that's justifiable theologically or morally.

But let's not. Let's accept that UMN probably wasn't trying to say, "to hell with the heathen" and move on. And maybe UMN can do something similar for Tarsonis.

[Salus Maior]

And how dare Israel defend itself as it has had to do from the very beginning?

With excessive force which has led to the deaths of many, many women and children, including expectant mothers. And quite likely people whom we are in Communion with and share the same faith.

[Tarsonis]

And how dare Israel defend itself as it has had to do from the very beginning?

With excessive force which has led to the deaths of many, many women and children, including expectant mothers.

You say that like Palestine doesn't have its share of blood on its hands.

And quite likely people whom we are in Communion with and share the same faith.

I don't find that communion part relevant. They're people plain and simple, Once again the point isn't to stan Israel or Palestine. It's a messy bloody affair on both sides.

[Salus Maior]

With excessive force which has led to the deaths of many, many women and children, including expectant mothers.

You say that like Palestine doesn't have its share of blood on its hands.

And quite likely people whom we are in Communion with and share the same faith.

I don't find that communion part relevant. They're people plain and simple, Once again the point isn't to stan Israel or Palestine. It's a messy bloody affair on both sides.

Israel has far more blood on their hands. This is demonstrably true, I’m this current conflict alone this is fact let alone the long term conflict.

Should we have no loyalty at all to what Scripture and Tradition call our ‘brethren’? Or is that an empty phrase?

[Kowani]

You say that like Palestine doesn't have its share of blood on its hands.



I don't find that communion part relevant. They're people plain and simple, Once again the point isn't to stan Israel or Palestine. It's a messy bloody affair on both sides.

Israel has far more blood on their hands. This is demonstrably true, I’m this current conflict alone this is fact let alone the long term conflict.

Should we have no loyalty at all to what Scripture and Tradition call our ‘brethren’? Or is that an empty phrase?

it's not even close lmao

[Luminesa]

If we're going to be throwing up a big stink about comments that are probably meant well, and presented in good faith, then the whole "many of whom are our brothers" thing is a little bit frustrating. It certainly seems to imply that you should care more about the oppression and murder of innocent people when those people happen to be Christian. And I don't think that's justifiable theologically or morally.

But let's not. Let's accept that UMN probably wasn't trying to say, "to hell with the heathen" and move on. And maybe UMN can do something similar for Tarsonis.

We should definitely care for all of the innocent victims regardless of their religion. I do agree with that. We do, however, refer to fellow Christians as “brothers and sisters in Christ”, following St. Paul’s example.

[Tarsonis]

Israel has far more blood on their hands. This is demonstrably true, I’m this current conflict alone this is fact let alone the long term conflict.

Should we have no loyalty at all to what Scripture and Tradition call our ‘brethren’? Or is that an empty phrase?

it's not even close lmao

That's not a rebutal