Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Tarsonis]

Purgatory is a part of Heaven, so it really wouldn't.

I simply mean in its flexibility in comparison to say a Reformed understanding of the question.

Not sure I follow. Purgatory is for the saved, it's not really flexible.

[Lower Nubia]

I simply mean in its flexibility in comparison to say a Reformed understanding of the question.

Not sure I follow. Purgatory is for the saved, it's not really flexible.

It's more flexible than: "Say the prayer & you're saved, If you don't, you're damned!"

[Tarsonis]

Not sure I follow. Purgatory is for the saved, it's not really flexible.

It's more flexible than: "Say the prayer & you're saved, If you don't, you're damned!"

Well yeah, but that's a problem with Reformed theory in general. This "ABC" christianity idea is really problematic.

[Narland]

It's more flexible than: "Say the prayer & you're saved, If you don't, you're damned!"

Well yeah, but that's a problem with Reformed theory in general. This "ABC" christianity idea is really problematic.

Can you eleborate what is meant by "ABC" Christianity?

[Lower Nubia]

It's more flexible than: "Say the prayer & you're saved, If you don't, you're damned!"

Well yeah, but that's a problem with Reformed theory in general. This "ABC" christianity idea is really problematic.

Purgatory/purgation, to my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, is a (one of many) Catholic bridge between "conditional election", and the unconditional election as pronounced by Augustine/Aquinas.

[Tarsonis]

Well yeah, but that's a problem with Reformed theory in general. This "ABC" christianity idea is really problematic.

Can you eleborate what is meant by "ABC" Christianity?

All you gotta do to be saved is:

Admit to God you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus is God's son.
Confess your faith in Jesus as your savior and Lord, forever more.


(I Hate VBS)

[Tarsonis]

Well yeah, but that's a problem with Reformed theory in general. This "ABC" christianity idea is really problematic.

Purgatory/purgation, to my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, is a (one of many) Catholic bridge between "conditional election", and the unconditional election as pronounced by Augustine/Aquinas.

I don't think so. Purgatory is the cleansing of the soul from the stain of sin as it enters heaven. The larger the stain, the longer the time of purgation. It really doesnt have anything to do with the economy of salvation, it's just part of going to heaven for everybody.

[Tarsonis]

Ouch. I'm reading James right now, and every word feels like an indictment.

[Lower Nubia]

Purgatory/purgation, to my mind, correct me if I'm wrong, is a (one of many) Catholic bridge between "conditional election", and the unconditional election as pronounced by Augustine/Aquinas.

I don't think so. Purgatory is the cleansing of the soul from the stain of sin as it enters heaven. The larger the stain, the longer the time of purgation. It really doesnt have anything to do with the economy of salvation, it's just part of going to heaven for everybody.

That's fair enough.

[Narland]

Can you eleborate what is meant by "ABC" Christianity?

All you gotta do to be saved is:

Admit to God you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus is God's son.
Confess your faith in Jesus as your savior and Lord, forever more.


(I Hate VBS)

IC... decisional regeneration... thanks .

Addenda:
I understand the VBS, there is nothing more frustrating than witnessing to someone who thinks they are saved when their lifestyle shows otherwise. And the reason they think so is that they asked Jesus into their heart, but have not been transformed. There is a branch of my family that does VBS but they think I am a heretic.

[Argotera]

.

[Lower Nubia]

Ouch. I'm reading James right now, and every word feels like an indictment.

It's a beautifully sobering book.

[Narland]

Ouch. I'm reading James right now, and every word feels like an indictment.

It's a beautifully sobering book.

Its a great template for Christian behaviour and growth. I read it continuously through jr. high, and it was both very comforting and very prickly.

[Lower Nubia]

I don't think so. Purgatory is the cleansing of the soul from the stain of sin as it enters heaven. The larger the stain, the longer the time of purgation. It really doesnt have anything to do with the economy of salvation, it's just part of going to heaven for everybody.

Wait, so does it or does it not apply to leaving the church and coming back?

It would depend on the reasons for leaving the Church:

No. I'm being brash, forgive me. The "went out from us" bit doesnt refer to those who have a legitimate crisis of faith and struggle. It refers to those who go their own way, abandoning the Church, to follow their own warped version of the Gospel. It suggest they never really held allegiance in the first place.

Those that have a legit crisis of faith and leave the Church, are more akin to the Prodical Son, and we pray daily that the lost find their way home to the Church.

[Sundiata]

Some of the Old Testament can be a drag to read. The books are long, often repetitive, and are difficult to understand due to their focus on ancient cultures. Still, when you read in the OT you stumble on amazing passages that you might not have known before.

I'm reading Job, and it's pretty repetitive and it references a lot of things that I don't understand much, but here's a wonderful message from the first chapter:

20 Then Job rose up, and rent his garments, and having shaven his head fell down upon the ground and worshipped,

21 And said: Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: as it hath pleased the Lord so is it done: blessed be the name of the Lord.
---

In goods times or in despair, the Christian faith is that of devotion to and praise of the Lord.

I did actually try to read Leviticus while I was sitting in Eucharistic Adoration, and I almost fell asleep.

Song of Songs is still one of the best books of the Bible, though. Change my mind, you can't.

Luminesa! You love the song of songs? I love the song of songs!

[Tarsonis]

All you gotta do to be saved is:

Admit to God you are a sinner
Believe that Jesus is God's son.
Confess your faith in Jesus as your savior and Lord, forever more.


(I Hate VBS)

IC... decisional regeneration... thanks .

Addenda:
I understand the VBS, there is nothing more frustrating than witnessing to someone who thinks they are saved when their lifestyle shows otherwise. And the reason they think so is that they asked Jesus into their heart, but have not been transformed. There is a branch of my family that does VBS but they think I am a heretic.

Transformation doesnt happen on a dime.

[Argotera]

.

[Sundiata]

I think that one of the many problems with most Protestant denominations is their abandonment of Christian tradition, especially the Eucharist.

*cough* Reformed Tradition *cough*

I had a protestant neighbor when I was young.

[Lower Nubia]

It would depend on the reasons for leaving the Church:

Ok…but if someone left the church to go their own way, then considering they never return are quite possibly damned. They would not go to heaven. And the one in crises, their time in purgatory be longer or shorter based on how faithful or unfaithful they were.

"to go their own way" seeking Christ, not their own pride, would not necessarily risk their salvation, as much as it would risk further time in purgatory.

[Tarsonis]

It would depend on the reasons for leaving the Church:

Ok…but if someone left the church to go their own way, then considering they never return are quite possibly damned. They would not go to heaven. And the one in crises, their time in purgatory be longer or shorter based on how faithful or unfaithful they were.

Were getting into hypothetical that only God could really judge.

[Argotera]

.

[Lower Nubia]

"to go their own way" seeking Christ, not their own pride, would not necessarily risk their salvation, as much as it would risk further time in purgatory.

Pardon me, I thought Tarsonis was speaking of those who never believed, as they already mentioned Christians having crises of faith.

There are different reasons for leaving. The seriousness of the leaving is dependant on a number of factors, in that just because you left, does not mean you were never Christian, you may have left, mistakenly, to be more Christian elsewhere. That is not as serious as leaving because of pride.

[Argotera]

.

[Tarsonis]

Were getting into hypothetical that only God could really judge.

The damned part, or the longer time in purgatory part?

The Damned part. Ultimately who is and who isnt dead is up to God's judgment, on a case by case basis. We can make broad aspersions, but when we start getting into specific hypothetical cases, it always ends up as an "I dunno maybe," since only God knows someone's heart

[Sundiata]

And they were very wrong. Both the Marcionites and Cathars were gnostics who believed in two Gods, the Demiurge (antagonistic God) and the Monad (benevolent God.) The believed the OT God was the Demiurge and the NT Father Christ spoke of was the not the God of Isreal, but the Monad.

Not only is such thinking is antithetical to Christianity, it doesn't even make sense.

Nah its merely a radical different interpretation of christianity. And it was by far not the only one like that floating around. Like there were syncretic and gnostic forms around then too, like Manicheaism and so on. At some point they became extremly popular, too. So for a lot of people it made a lot of sense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

Gnosticism is a heresy. Do not adhere to doctrinal error.