Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[The Archregimancy]

1.I'm not even going to respond to this. You're just arguing in bad faith again; you've done this before and it gets tiresome after a while.

2.I'm aware of that, and I'm also aware that was also the case in the RCC until Vatican II. I can be critical of things I like, Salus. Your constant deflection to whataboutism and washing your hands of history isn't an argument. These things still happened and no matter how much the Roman Church has improved - and I will openly admit it's been getting better - that fact doesn't change.


3.Yes, I know about the spiritual authority of the Byzantine Emperors thank you very much. I can assure you as an unapologetic Byzaboo that I know quite a bit about the Byzantine Empire/Eastern Roman Empire and how it worked.

At any rate, I'm also well aware that the RCC doesn't officially tout Divine Right anymore - which I view is a good thing - but it's still accepted doctrine and there are still many Roman Catholics, yourself included, that genuinely believe in it and so that gives me every right to criticize the Roman Church for it.

4. I should also note that this authority was, conveniently, undisputed by the Bishop of Rome until the Empire committed the grave sin of... *checks notes* ...being ruled by a woman. Yes, that's right, a female. God save us all! What will those Eastern Christians think of next, I wonder? A woman giving birth to God Himself? Preposterous!

At any rate, I'm also well aware that the RCC doesn't officially tout Divine Right anymore - which I view is a good thing - but it's still accepted doctrine and there are still many Roman Catholics, yourself included, that genuinely believe in it and so that gives me every right to criticize the Roman Church for it.

5.Pro-tip: Whataboutism isn't a good defense.

I'm not ignorant to Orthodox crimes, Salus. I can still criticize Catholicism for them.


6.My dude, you were quite literally just criticizing me for not having "real" criticisms of the RCC and now when I present "real" criticisms you insist I just have some weird, romanticist view of what Orthodoxy is like and that I'm only drawn to it because I don't like Catholicism?!


7.My guy, we were not discussing why I like Orthodoxy; we were discussing why I dislike Catholicism..

8.I didn't say he was. You're missing the point. Again. Maybe even deliberately? That potshot you decided to take at our resident Orthodox members for no apparent reasons has me wondering now...


9.Please spare me this moral elitism you've got going on.

1. It is not ‘bad faith’ to recognize your ignorance when it comes to recognizing the depth of Catholic spirituality, which is just as intense and deep as Orthodox practice, on the flimsiest of notions of ‘but the Pope sat on a gold chair’ when the Patriarchs of your favored, supposedly more spiritual church do the same. Do you not see the clear bigotry here? How is that arguing in ‘good faith’?

2. I am not whitewashing history, I live with the fact that my church has done wrong, as all mature Christians have to. My question is, how can you argue that the Catholic Church is unecumenical as a real criticism, when they have made far more progress and have far more openness to ecumenism than your favored church does? How am I, or anyone, supposed to see that as anything other than sheer hypocrisy?

3. Then, again, how can you argue this as a specific criticism of the Catholic Church without appearing hypocritical? If it doesn’t keep you from wanting to embrace the Orthodox Church, why is it a grudge against the Catholic Church? Especially when you admit that the RCC doesn’t hold this position anymore?

It’s not an official doctrine, that I’m aware of, in the present. That being said, I’ve been a monarchist since before I was Catholic.

4. While technically that was part of 3 I felt it had to be put in its own category. There were multiple reasons for the Pope to reject Irene as Empress: 1. It was technically against law and precedent for her to be the Basileus. I certainly have no problems with female monarchs (St.Jadwiga, Ora Pro Nobis), but at the time that was controversial and I don’t really blame the Pope for rejecting her legitimacy. Secondly, Byzantium was really only overlord in name over Italy and had no ability to actually protect Rome or Western Christendom. The Franks could, however, which is why the Pope made Charlemagne the Western Emperor (legitimately or no) and assisted the rise of a western Christian empire.

5. I’m aware. But from how you’re posting you’re making it seem as if the Orthodix either doesn’t have these problems or handles them better. I’m informing you that this is not the case. Again, my question is how you can hold these things as grudges when you recognize these problems exist in your favored church without hypocrisy?

6. I didn’t say you didn’t have real criticisms. I was saying those particular criticisms were bad, and baseless.

7. I don’t think anyone was asking why you dislike Catholicism. I don’t think anyone’s chomping at the bit for your personal criticisms.

8. Upon further reflection, I retract my criticism of Orthodix posters and apologize for my unfair assertion.

9. You’re the one who’s saying Orthodoxy has a superior spirituality here.

With both Easters now well out of the way, I was finally going to sit down today and finally reply to your TG where you reached out to me and invited me to engage with you; where you seemed to be upset that I was deeply disappointed with your level of aggression against Orthodoxy and that I saw you (in your own words) as 'unreasonable', where you characterised yourself as open-minded and willing to engage in a more mutually respectful tone.

I thought I would dip into this thread quickly first, though - after weeks of staying away - to see if you'd managed to match deeds to words, whether you really were sincere about wanting a better dialogue.

I now see, however, that there's no point. You will never change; more to the point, you're clearly unwilling to change, and fundamentally uninterested in changing. You're clearly not interested in attempting to understand an Orthodox perspective, will react to any Orthodox viewpoint that even hints at criticism of Catholicism with aggression and defensiveness, and you have no interest in broadening your understanding of the key historical issues - which you're not as strong on as you seem to think you are. I'm saddened by this, but it's perhaps best to be realistic.

Please don't TG me again on this; I'm not particularly interested in discussing this further in public or private.

I'm now going to go away and ignore this thread's toxicity again for at least a few more weeks.

[Luminesa]

Oh geez, even Arch got fed-up...

While I know that I have not always added to this conversation in a peaceable manner, I think between all the arguing and fussing we are missing something important. Yes, I say “we”. If Trollzyn wants to enter the Orthodox Church, let her. And just offer prayers for her soul and be open to questions about the faith. Apologetics is not a bad thing. We’re all expected to defend our faiths as part of evangelization. But the other important part of evangelization is welcomeness. Unfortunately, that hasn’t always been our priority here. I would not like for Trollzyn to be dissuaded, because she got in a couple fights on the internet. I want her to follow her heart, and Pope Francis has even said to treat those who have chosen Eastern Orthodoxy as brothers and sisters. Brothers and sisters bicker, sometimes with the truth in mind. But that does not mean we should forget mercy as well.

[Lady Victory]

US Lutheran Church elects first transgender Bishop, Megan Rowe

Based.

Shame they're Lutherans.

(I kid, of course )

[Lady Victory]

Oh geez, even Arch got fed-up...

While I know that I have not always added to this conversation in a peaceable manner, I think between all the arguing and fussing we are missing something important. Yes, I say “we”. If Trollzyn wants to enter the Orthodox Church, let her. And just offer prayers for her soul and be open to questions about the faith. Apologetics is not a bad thing. We’re all expected to defend our faiths as part of evangelization. But the other important part of evangelization is welcomeness. Unfortunately, that hasn’t always been our priority here. I would not like for Trollzyn to be dissuaded, because she got in a couple fights on the internet. I want her to follow her heart, and Pope Francis has even said to treat those who have chosen Eastern Orthodoxy as brothers and sisters. Brothers and sisters bicker, sometimes with the truth in mind. But that does not mean we should forget mercy as well.

Thank you for that, Lumi. I appreciate it.

Also I'd appreciate if you didn't call me "Trollzyn" anymore. LV, Lady V, or Levy will do. Thanks.

[Kedri]

That didn't seem to stop the Lollards, Waldensians, Arians, Cathars, Bogomils, Iconoclasts, Adamites, Messalians, Monophysites, Paulicians, etc.

And where are they now?

I think the Waldensians are still around in Italy, iirc.

[Tarsonis]

And where are they now?

I think the Waldensians are still around in Italy, iirc.

True. And Francis lacks the stomach to finish the job.


I kid of course, in case anyone thinks I've been serious this whole time.

[Loeje]

US Lutheran Church elects first transgender Bishop, Megan Rowe

It's ELCA. I'm not surprised.

[Sundiata]

They were all atheists anyway.

Not necessarily, but they do live as if there is no God. Instead of a ferrari give me a rosary.

[Salus Maior]

With both Easters now well out of the way, I was finally going to sit down today and finally reply to your TG where you reached out to me and invited me to engage with you; where you seemed to be upset that I was deeply disappointed with your level of aggression against Orthodoxy and that I saw you (in your own words) as 'unreasonable', where you characterised yourself as open-minded and willing to engage in a more mutually respectful tone.

I thought I would dip into this thread quickly first, though - after weeks of staying away - to see if you'd managed to match deeds to words, whether you really were sincere about wanting a better dialogue.

I now see, however, that there's no point. You will never change; more to the point, you're clearly unwilling to change, and fundamentally uninterested in changing. You're clearly not interested in attempting to understand an Orthodox perspective, will react to any Orthodox viewpoint that even hints at criticism of Catholicism with aggression and defensiveness, and you have no interest in broadening your understanding of the key historical issues - which you're not as strong on as you seem to think you are. I'm saddened by this, but it's perhaps best to be realistic.

Please don't TG me again on this; I'm not particularly interested in discussing this further in public or private.

I'm now going to go away and ignore this thread's toxicity again for at least a few more weeks.

Lady Victory, last I checked, was not Orthodox. She is rather, technically, a non-denom Christian with a particular fascination, but no actual experience, with Orthodoxy and yet despite that she’s ready to declare Orthodoxy’s superiority to Catholicism in every way. I think Tars voiced our frustrations with that position well in his post earlier where he pointed out that this was upsetting for the reason that a number of problems she lists about the Catholic Church that exist in the Orthodox Church, suddenly don’t become a problem but only for Orthodoxy. I would also say that it would be unfair to discount Catholic spirituality out of hand as being lacking when they don’t have any experience with Catholicism or know much either.

Of course, I’m wasting my time responding to you. As apparently, you’re only willing to respond when it comes to naming posters as disgraces to Christendom and harshly condemn them, rather then when they ask to make amends and try to mend bridges, or get a better understanding. But fine, go ahead and leave, and take what toxicity you bring to the table with you. I certainly know I’m not the best poster on this site, or the best Christian, but at least I’m aware of that and try to apologize rather than outright burn bridges and declare others can ‘never change’.

I’m not the best Catholic, sure, not even close; but you’re certainly not the best I’ve seen from Orthodoxy. In your snideness, in your judgemental attitude, and your lack of charity.

[Luminesa]

Oh geez, even Arch got fed-up...

While I know that I have not always added to this conversation in a peaceable manner, I think between all the arguing and fussing we are missing something important. Yes, I say “we”. If Trollzyn wants to enter the Orthodox Church, let her. And just offer prayers for her soul and be open to questions about the faith. Apologetics is not a bad thing. We’re all expected to defend our faiths as part of evangelization. But the other important part of evangelization is welcomeness. Unfortunately, that hasn’t always been our priority here. I would not like for Trollzyn to be dissuaded, because she got in a couple fights on the internet. I want her to follow her heart, and Pope Francis has even said to treat those who have chosen Eastern Orthodoxy as brothers and sisters. Brothers and sisters bicker, sometimes with the truth in mind. But that does not mean we should forget mercy as well.

Thank you for that, Lumi. I appreciate it.

Also I'd appreciate if you didn't call me "Trollzyn" anymore. LV, Lady V, or Levy will do. Thanks.

Aight. I've tended to call people by whatever name I remember them by, but that's fine by me. I'm no expert on Orthodoxy, but if you need help locating a pastor or a nearby church, I can always ask St. Google.

[Luminesa]

US Lutheran Church elects first transgender Bishop, Megan Rowe

Based.

Shame they're Lutherans.

(I kid, of course )

Specially the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Not sure where Missouri Synod stands on the matter.

[Loeje]

Based.

Shame they're Lutherans.

(I kid, of course )

Specially the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Not sure where Missouri Synod stands on the matter.

They're the opposite. Love the sinner, hate the sin, basically.

[Sundiata]

Specially the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Not sure where Missouri Synod stands on the matter.

They're the opposite. Love the sinner, hate the sin, basically.

Similar to the Catholic teaching. Although, from what I understand, a few like Fr. James Martin disagree with the Vatican on church teaching/catechism.

[Salus Maior]

US Lutheran Church elects first transgender Bishop, Megan Rowe

Based.

Shame they're Lutherans.

(I kid, of course )

Eh, Lutherans aren’t that bad. There’s plenty of appreciation for the history and tradition of Christianity within it.

[Old Tyrannia]

1. It is not ‘bad faith’ to recognize your ignorance when it comes to recognizing the depth of Catholic spirituality, which is just as intense and deep as Orthodox practice, on the flimsiest of notions of ‘but the Pope sat on a gold chair’ when the Patriarchs of your favored, supposedly more spiritual church do the same. Do you not see the clear bigotry here? How is that arguing in ‘good faith’?

2. I am not whitewashing history, I live with the fact that my church has done wrong, as all mature Christians have to. My question is, how can you argue that the Catholic Church is unecumenical as a real criticism, when they have made far more progress and have far more openness to ecumenism than your favored church does? How am I, or anyone, supposed to see that as anything other than sheer hypocrisy?

3. Then, again, how can you argue this as a specific criticism of the Catholic Church without appearing hypocritical? If it doesn’t keep you from wanting to embrace the Orthodox Church, why is it a grudge against the Catholic Church? Especially when you admit that the RCC doesn’t hold this position anymore?

It’s not an official doctrine, that I’m aware of, in the present. That being said, I’ve been a monarchist since before I was Catholic.

4. While technically that was part of 3 I felt it had to be put in its own category. There were multiple reasons for the Pope to reject Irene as Empress: 1. It was technically against law and precedent for her to be the Basileus. I certainly have no problems with female monarchs (St.Jadwiga, Ora Pro Nobis), but at the time that was controversial and I don’t really blame the Pope for rejecting her legitimacy. Secondly, Byzantium was really only overlord in name over Italy and had no ability to actually protect Rome or Western Christendom. The Franks could, however, which is why the Pope made Charlemagne the Western Emperor (legitimately or no) and assisted the rise of a western Christian empire.

5. I’m aware. But from how you’re posting you’re making it seem as if the Orthodix either doesn’t have these problems or handles them better. I’m informing you that this is not the case. Again, my question is how you can hold these things as grudges when you recognize these problems exist in your favored church without hypocrisy?

6. I didn’t say you didn’t have real criticisms. I was saying those particular criticisms were bad, and baseless.

7. I don’t think anyone was asking why you dislike Catholicism. I don’t think anyone’s chomping at the bit for your personal criticisms.

8. Upon further reflection, I retract my criticism of Orthodix posters and apologize for my unfair assertion.

9. You’re the one who’s saying Orthodoxy has a superior spirituality here.

With both Easters now well out of the way, I was finally going to sit down today and finally reply to your TG where you reached out to me and invited me to engage with you; where you seemed to be upset that I was deeply disappointed with your level of aggression against Orthodoxy and that I saw you (in your own words) as 'unreasonable', where you characterised yourself as open-minded and willing to engage in a more mutually respectful tone.

I thought I would dip into this thread quickly first, though - after weeks of staying away - to see if you'd managed to match deeds to words, whether you really were sincere about wanting a better dialogue.

I now see, however, that there's no point. You will never change; more to the point, you're clearly unwilling to change, and fundamentally uninterested in changing. You're clearly not interested in attempting to understand an Orthodox perspective, will react to any Orthodox viewpoint that even hints at criticism of Catholicism with aggression and defensiveness, and you have no interest in broadening your understanding of the key historical issues - which you're not as strong on as you seem to think you are. I'm saddened by this, but it's perhaps best to be realistic.

Please don't TG me again on this; I'm not particularly interested in discussing this further in public or private.

I'm now going to go away and ignore this thread's toxicity again for at least a few more weeks.

I must say that I don't feel Salus' post was especially unfair or hostile to Eastern Orthodoxy. Certainly he may have been intemperate in his tone, but LV is not exactly an easy poster to have a civil conversation with, and I would have to agree that many of her criticisms of the Roman Catholic Church are unreasonable, hypocritical or puerile. I don't blame Catholic posters for feeling offended by being told they're less spiritual than the Orthodox because the pope has a golden throne.

Mostly, though, I just feel angry that both Catholic and Orthodox posters feel entitled to take dire offense at anything they perceive as an attack on their denominations whilst blithely ignoring at best, and actively contributing to at worst, the constant hostility towards Protestants in this thread that no one besides me ever seems concerned with. I don't think anyone in this thread has ever insisted that Catholics or Orthodox aren't real Christians, are satanic, or are the "worst heresy in Christian history," all things that have been said about Protestants or particular groups of Protestants here. I think you should all remove the beams from your own eyes.

[Salus Maior]

Based.

Shame they're Lutherans.

(I kid, of course )

Specially the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Not sure where Missouri Synod stands on the matter.

LCMS are essentially Lutheran trads, so it would be safe to say they toe the conservative line.

[Lady Victory]

With both Easters now well out of the way, I was finally going to sit down today and finally reply to your TG where you reached out to me and invited me to engage with you; where you seemed to be upset that I was deeply disappointed with your level of aggression against Orthodoxy and that I saw you (in your own words) as 'unreasonable', where you characterised yourself as open-minded and willing to engage in a more mutually respectful tone.

I thought I would dip into this thread quickly first, though - after weeks of staying away - to see if you'd managed to match deeds to words, whether you really were sincere about wanting a better dialogue.

I now see, however, that there's no point. You will never change; more to the point, you're clearly unwilling to change, and fundamentally uninterested in changing. You're clearly not interested in attempting to understand an Orthodox perspective, will react to any Orthodox viewpoint that even hints at criticism of Catholicism with aggression and defensiveness, and you have no interest in broadening your understanding of the key historical issues - which you're not as strong on as you seem to think you are. I'm saddened by this, but it's perhaps best to be realistic.

Please don't TG me again on this; I'm not particularly interested in discussing this further in public or private.

I'm now going to go away and ignore this thread's toxicity again for at least a few more weeks.

Lady Victory, last I checked, was not Orthodox. She is rather, technically, a non-denom Christian with a particular fascination, but no actual experience, with Orthodoxy and yet despite that she’s ready to declare Orthodoxy’s superiority to Catholicism in every way. I think Tars voiced our frustrations with that position well in his post earlier where he pointed out that this was upsetting for the reason that a number of problems she lists about the Catholic Church that exist in the Orthodox Church, suddenly don’t become a problem but only for Orthodoxy. I would also say that it would be unfair to discount Catholic spirituality out of hand as being lacking when they don’t have any experience with Catholicism or know much either.

Of course, I’m wasting my time responding to you. As apparently, you’re only willing to respond when it comes to naming posters as disgraces to Christendom and harshly condemn them, rather then when they ask to make amends and try to mend bridges, or get a better understanding. But fine, go ahead and leave, and take what toxicity you bring to the table with you. I certainly know I’m not the best poster on this site, or the best Christian, but at least I’m aware of that and try to apologize rather than outright burn bridges and declare others can ‘never change’.

I’m not the best Catholic, sure, not even close; but you’re certainly not the best I’ve seen from Orthodoxy. In your snideness, in your judgemental attitude, and your lack of charity.

The issue is what you think I was arguing and what I was actually arguing were two entirely different things. You were misrepresenting my argument from the very beginning and dismissed my numerous attempts to clarify what I was saying.

I generally like to assume the best in people so I'm willing to chalk this misunderstanding as accidental due to my inherent inability to explain things clearly rather than intentional malice on your part.

But regardless of whether you intentionally or accidentally misinterpreted what I said the fact remains that your general stubbornness makes any attempt at discussing this topic at further length totally impossible. So I won't even bother, and encourage you to drop the subject altogether.

[Tarsonis]

Dishonor. Dishonor on your houses. Dishonor on your cows.

[Salus Maior]

Dishonor. Dishonor on your houses. Dishonor on your cows.

Essentially

[Tarsonis]

Dishonor. Dishonor on your houses. Dishonor on your cows.

Essentially

Just to be clear, I'm including everyonein that.

[Luminesa]

Really at this point this thread has become the same five people yelling at each other over some of the same things over and over. I think it’s kinda like how this pandemic has just made many people sick of living with each other. I think we need to maybe not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over in the same manner that we do. For example, papal infallibility is a difficult issue, yes, but when a Protestant poster has genuine questions about it the move is not to bang your head against a wall. Evangelization requires actually meeting a person where they are at, and it doesn’t require a degree or any sort of expertise beside a Bible and a Catechism (if you’re Catholic). But when it becomes those same five people talking about each other’s faults and failings, are we really talking about Christianity anymore?

And yes, I know exactly which posters I am referring to, and I’m not innocent of this problem. I take pride in my faith and I’m the last person who should be talking about the sin of pride. Though it has been telling at times when people have decided to jump for the same old arguments rather than eagerly embracing new converts or people with questions. What example do we set for other people when we get hoighty toighty over which crimes each denomination has committed in the past? It’s telling that the most well-behaved members of this thread are the atheists who pop in to offer articles on Christian news, two archaeology nerds (I say “nerd” in a loving manner) who are simply interested in conversation, and some of our Low Church friends who simply have questions.

Nobody is immune to bad faith, no matter how long they’ve been on this website, what their faith is, and who their friends are. Or how many scriptural commentaries they’ve read. The most important parts of our faith are prayer, works, and charity. To quote a certain famous metal musician, nothing else matters. But on a web forum, people will see only your words, and therefore your charity. Yes, speak honestly and forthright when someone is speaking in bad faith. But remember that we are not meant to build fences between each other like this. And if we all stop talking to each other, and this thread dies, we lose a resource for NSers who might be eagerly looking into Christianity. I have had my scuffles with LV in the past, but I’m not going to down on her for choosing Orthodoxy because it’s a little different from Catholicism, and if any of ya’ll turn her away from seeking to be closer to God, it’s on your souls. Ezekiel said so.

So if need be, take a break, go cool your heads, and think about what you represent in this forum. It might not seem like much, but to someone else, you just might change their life.

[Tarsonis]

Really at this point this thread has become the same five people yelling at each other over some of the same things over and over. I think it’s kinda like how this pandemic has just made many people sick of living with each other. I think we need to maybe not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over in the same manner that we do. For example, papal infallibility is a difficult issue, yes, but when a Protestant poster has genuine questions about it the move is not to bang your head against a wall. Evangelization requires actually meeting a person where they are at, and it doesn’t require a degree or any sort of expertise beside a Bible and a Catechism (if you’re Catholic). But when it becomes those same five people talking about each other’s faults and failings, are we really talking about Christianity anymore?

And yes, I know exactly which posters I am referring to, and I’m not innocent of this problem. I take pride in my faith and I’m the last person who should be talking about the sin of pride. Though it has been telling at times when people have decided to jump for the same old arguments rather than eagerly embracing new converts or people with questions. What example do we set for other people when we get hoighty toighty over which crimes each denomination has committed in the past? It’s telling that the most well-behaved members of this thread are the atheists who pop in to offer articles on Christian news, two archaeology nerds (I say “nerd” in a loving manner) who are simply interested in conversation, and some of our Low Church friends who simply have questions.

Nobody is immune to bad faith, no matter how long they’ve been on this website, what their faith is, and who their friends are. Or how many scriptural commentaries they’ve read. The most important parts of our faith are prayer, works, and charity. To quote a certain famous metal musician, nothing else matters. But on a web forum, people will see only your words, and therefore your charity. Yes, speak honestly and forthright when someone is speaking in bad faith. But remember that we are not meant to build fences between each other like this. And if we all stop talking to each other, and this thread dies, we lose a resource for NSers who might be eagerly looking into Christianity. I have had my scuffles with LV in the past, but I’m not going to down on her for choosing Orthodoxy because it’s a little different from Catholicism, and if any of ya’ll turn her away from seeking to be closer to God, it’s on your souls. Ezekiel said so.

So if need be, take a break, go cool your heads, and think about what you represent in this forum. It might not seem like much, but to someone else, you just might change their life.

I miss Const

[Kowani]

man i really hate to drop in on this uplifting conversation with bad news
buttttttttttt

78 Priests massacred in Tigray, Ethiopia

At least 78 priests were ‘massacred’ in one zone of Tigray, according to an official church letter leaked to the Telegraph.

The letter, which was addressed to the Synod of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, says that “priests, deacons, choristers, and monks” have been “massacred” over the last five months.

Half a dozen survivors confirmed the news to this newspaper and said that both Ethiopian national army soldiers and Eritrean troops went into their holy spaces across southeast Tigray and “shot them down”.

Ethiopia has been wracked by a horrific civil war since the Nobel Peace Prize winner Abiy Ahmed sent his national army into the mountainous northern region of Tigray to oust the powerful regional government there on November 4.

The news comes several days after a video was smuggled out of the country showing the head of Ethiopia’s Orthodox Church Abune Mathias condemning what he calls a ‘genocide’ being committed on the ethnic Tigrayan people by the Ethiopian state.

The conflict has released an almighty humanitarian crisis and neither priests nor religious sites have not been spared. Centuries-old monasteries and mosques, including the 6th century Debre Damo monastery and Al-Nejashi, Africa's first Mosque, have been looted and bombed by Eritrean troops who are allied to Ethiopia’s government in Addis Ababa.

The stamped letter was sent on April 15 and lists the number of clergymen killed over the past five months in the church administrations.

Priests who survived the killings told the Telegraph the number of dead clergymen could be much higher than 78.

Gergera Maryam, Adi’Zeban Karagiorgis, Kidanemihret Bosa, Taksa and the monastery of Da Abune Ayzgi are some of the churches where churchmen were massacred, according to witnesses.

Kahsay* and his deacon son Halfom* fled their homes to the nearby mountains of Seharti after receiving news that the Eritrean and Ethiopian troops were raiding churches.

Two days later, Halfom returned back to the church in their village to see if the situation had improved. “I begged my son not to go back. He promised me he would return. But he did not return. The Eritrean soldiers killed my son” says Kahsay, an old man. “I learned a week later the villagers picked up my son’s body. I did not attend his burial. He was only 25.” In Ethiopian Orthodox tradition, many priests and deacons gather in churchyards to celebrate Saints’ Celebration days. Three witnesses told the Telegraph that Ethiopian and Eritrean soldiers specifically target these celebration days to execute members of the church.

“In the afternoon of January 9, there were many of us in the church of Adi’Zeban Karagiorgis. We were there to celebrate the birth of the Virgin Mary,” one witness who asked to remain anonymous, said. “Suddenly, eight Ethiopian soldiers entered the churchyard. The soldiers picked 12 young deacons between the ages of 15 and 20. They took them out and shot them down,” he says.

Hadera*, an old priest, survived a massacre at the church of Gergera Da Mariam. He says there have been various killings and massacres since early December 2020.

The 76-year-old says he was praying on February 1 when 12 Ethiopian and Eritrean soldiers barged into the sacred room of the church.

“They entered the holy room with their shoes. They shouted over us saying; ‘You are our enemies because you have comforted and preached to the villagers that this shall pass. You should not have done that,” recounts Hadera.

“There were six priests in the room. They shot us all and left the church. My friends died. It is nothing short of a miracle I survived.”

The Telegraph approached Eritrea’s information minister, Yemane Gebremeskel and spokeswoman of the Ethiopian Prime Minister office Billene Seyoum for comment. Neither had replied at the time of going to press.

[Immortan Khan]

Really at this point this thread has become the same five people yelling at each other over some of the same things over and over. I think it’s kinda like how this pandemic has just made many people sick of living with each other. I think we need to maybe not keep rehashing the same arguments over and over in the same manner that we do. For example, papal infallibility is a difficult issue, yes, but when a Protestant poster has genuine questions about it the move is not to bang your head against a wall. Evangelization requires actually meeting a person where they are at, and it doesn’t require a degree or any sort of expertise beside a Bible and a Catechism (if you’re Catholic). But when it becomes those same five people talking about each other’s faults and failings, are we really talking about Christianity anymore?

And yes, I know exactly which posters I am referring to, and I’m not innocent of this problem. I take pride in my faith and I’m the last person who should be talking about the sin of pride. Though it has been telling at times when people have decided to jump for the same old arguments rather than eagerly embracing new converts or people with questions. What example do we set for other people when we get hoighty toighty over which crimes each denomination has committed in the past? It’s telling that the most well-behaved members of this thread are the atheists who pop in to offer articles on Christian news, two archaeology nerds (I say “nerd” in a loving manner) who are simply interested in conversation, and some of our Low Church friends who simply have questions.

Nobody is immune to bad faith, no matter how long they’ve been on this website, what their faith is, and who their friends are. Or how many scriptural commentaries they’ve read. The most important parts of our faith are prayer, works, and charity. To quote a certain famous metal musician, nothing else matters. But on a web forum, people will see only your words, and therefore your charity. Yes, speak honestly and forthright when someone is speaking in bad faith. But remember that we are not meant to build fences between each other like this. And if we all stop talking to each other, and this thread dies, we lose a resource for NSers who might be eagerly looking into Christianity. I have had my scuffles with LV in the past, but I’m not going to down on her for choosing Orthodoxy because it’s a little different from Catholicism, and if any of ya’ll turn her away from seeking to be closer to God, it’s on your souls. Ezekiel said so.

So if need be, take a break, go cool your heads, and think about what you represent in this forum. It might not seem like much, but to someone else, you just might change their life.

Thank you for this post.

[Luminesa]

man i really hate to drop in on this uplifting conversation with bad news
buttttttttttt

78 Priests massacred in Tigray, Ethiopia

At least 78 priests were ‘massacred’ in one zone of Tigray, according to an official church letter leaked to the Telegraph.

The letter, which was addressed to the Synod of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, says that “priests, deacons, choristers, and monks” have been “massacred” over the last five months.

Half a dozen survivors confirmed the news to this newspaper and said that both Ethiopian national army soldiers and Eritrean troops went into their holy spaces across southeast Tigray and “shot them down”.

Ethiopia has been wracked by a horrific civil war since the Nobel Peace Prize winner Abiy Ahmed sent his national army into the mountainous northern region of Tigray to oust the powerful regional government there on November 4.

The news comes several days after a video was smuggled out of the country showing the head of Ethiopia’s Orthodox Church Abune Mathias condemning what he calls a ‘genocide’ being committed on the ethnic Tigrayan people by the Ethiopian state.

The conflict has released an almighty humanitarian crisis and neither priests nor religious sites have not been spared. Centuries-old monasteries and mosques, including the 6th century Debre Damo monastery and Al-Nejashi, Africa's first Mosque, have been looted and bombed by Eritrean troops who are allied to Ethiopia’s government in Addis Ababa.

The stamped letter was sent on April 15 and lists the number of clergymen killed over the past five months in the church administrations.

Priests who survived the killings told the Telegraph the number of dead clergymen could be much higher than 78.

Gergera Maryam, Adi’Zeban Karagiorgis, Kidanemihret Bosa, Taksa and the monastery of Da Abune Ayzgi are some of the churches where churchmen were massacred, according to witnesses.

Kahsay* and his deacon son Halfom* fled their homes to the nearby mountains of Seharti after receiving news that the Eritrean and Ethiopian troops were raiding churches.

Two days later, Halfom returned back to the church in their village to see if the situation had improved. “I begged my son not to go back. He promised me he would return. But he did not return. The Eritrean soldiers killed my son” says Kahsay, an old man. “I learned a week later the villagers picked up my son’s body. I did not attend his burial. He was only 25.” In Ethiopian Orthodox tradition, many priests and deacons gather in churchyards to celebrate Saints’ Celebration days. Three witnesses told the Telegraph that Ethiopian and Eritrean soldiers specifically target these celebration days to execute members of the church.

“In the afternoon of January 9, there were many of us in the church of Adi’Zeban Karagiorgis. We were there to celebrate the birth of the Virgin Mary,” one witness who asked to remain anonymous, said. “Suddenly, eight Ethiopian soldiers entered the churchyard. The soldiers picked 12 young deacons between the ages of 15 and 20. They took them out and shot them down,” he says.

Hadera*, an old priest, survived a massacre at the church of Gergera Da Mariam. He says there have been various killings and massacres since early December 2020.

The 76-year-old says he was praying on February 1 when 12 Ethiopian and Eritrean soldiers barged into the sacred room of the church.

“They entered the holy room with their shoes. They shouted over us saying; ‘You are our enemies because you have comforted and preached to the villagers that this shall pass. You should not have done that,” recounts Hadera.

“There were six priests in the room. They shot us all and left the church. My friends died. It is nothing short of a miracle I survived.”

The Telegraph approached Eritrea’s information minister, Yemane Gebremeskel and spokeswoman of the Ethiopian Prime Minister office Billene Seyoum for comment. Neither had replied at the time of going to press.

> Nobel Peace Prize winner.
> Starts civil war.

Ironic, but not to the point that I’m not surprised. Rest eternal to these many martyrs, and may help and assistance come to the suffering church and population in Ethiopia, one of the bedrocks of African Christianity.