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Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
188
40%
Eastern Orthodox
30
6%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
1
0%
Anglican/Episcopalian
24
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
50
11%
Methodist
8
2%
Baptist
45
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
37
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
21
4%
Other Christian
65
14%
 
Total votes : 469

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:47 pm

Third ZSeparatists wrote:Protestants did have a point in leaving the Roman Catholic Church, and I’m saying this even though I’m Catholic.

Did they though?
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:56 pm

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Methodist Church plans to split over gay marriage

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-r ... Z21SI?il=0

Who doesn't love a schism?

From the article:
The United Methodist Church plans to split into two denominations later this year, church officials said on Friday
[...]
A council of Methodist bishops in Washington, D.C. called Friday’s move the “best means to resolve our differences.”

Shouldn't that mindset fall cleanly inside moral relativism or personal morality?
No universal truth to discover, just differing opinions, all with equal validity (that is, none)

It just shows either side was unable to make a convincing argument, so both walk away in different directions while telling themselves it wasn't a total failure.
(though, i would argue in protestant splits cases it looks more like a group leaving the original denomination while claiming to still retain their denomination, lots of naming appropriation)
I mean, it can be inevitable sometimes to be unable to reach an agreement point, but hailing the "splitting as solution" sounds like taking a step further, in the direction of irrilevancy and loss of credibility.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when in doubt.

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We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Lower Nubia
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Postby Lower Nubia » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:36 pm

Minachia wrote:
Lower Nubia wrote:
I mean, verse 11 is applicable to men too, a male student of the time would be in full submission to a teacher and learn in silence.

Which of course, begs the question, what are they learning to do, which demands a tutor-student (Luke 10:39) relationship?

Verse 12 is surely more specific, as we have plenty of examples of women teaching men the Gospel.

Such as...?


The woman at the well: “And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.”? Mary Magdalene: “Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.”? Priscilla? Phoebes?

Mary Magdalene is the first to proclaim the resurrection, the gospel, to the apostles themselves. I might add.

They’re just off the top of my head.
Last edited by Lower Nubia on Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Federal Government of Iowa
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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:37 pm

I find this to be very stupid. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, there should be no debate over meaning. It is clear as day.
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The Federal Government of Iowa
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Postby The Federal Government of Iowa » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:15 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Third ZSeparatists wrote:Protestants did have a point in leaving the Roman Catholic Church, and I’m saying this even though I’m Catholic.

Did they though?

Uh... yes. Yes they did.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:21 pm

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:I find this to be very stupid. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, there should be no debate over meaning. It is clear as day.

Unless you are a Methodist I wouldn't worry about it too much, as it isn't really going to affect you otherwise.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:25 pm

Lost Memories wrote:Shouldn't that mindset fall cleanly inside moral relativism or personal morality?
No universal truth to discover, just differing opinions, all with equal validity (that is, none)

It just shows either side was unable to make a convincing argument, so both walk away in different directions while telling themselves it wasn't a total failure.
(though, i would argue in protestant splits cases it looks more like a group leaving the original denomination while claiming to still retain their denomination, lots of naming appropriation)
I mean, it can be inevitable sometimes to be unable to reach an agreement point, but hailing the "splitting as solution" sounds like taking a step further, in the direction of irrilevancy and loss of credibility.

As I understand this didn't just come recently, but has been something they've been arguing on or debating for the last decade at least. To me that suggests that an arranged split is viewed as being better to continuing an endless debate on the subject.
The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:I find this to be very stupid. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, there should be no debate over meaning. It is clear as day.

Evidently not, given the denominations that do allow gay marriage (and clergy).
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:30 pm

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Did they though?

Uh... yes. Yes they did.


Did they though?
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
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1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:31 pm

The Federal Government of Iowa wrote:I find this to be very stupid. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, there should be no debate over meaning. It is clear as day.


Depends on how you define homosexuality.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:40 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:As I understand this didn't just come recently, but has been something they've been arguing on or debating for the last decade at least. To me that suggests that an arranged split is viewed as being better to continuing an endless debate on the subject.

I imagine the intention to be the same. But it's still a declaration (or admission) of failure.

The ones proposing to lift the ban failed to get their suggestion across, so they left with their crowd.
The ones against the proposal failed to convince the proponents to desist, so they lost a piece.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when in doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Minachia
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Postby Minachia » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:56 pm

Third ZSeparatists wrote:Protestants did have a point in leaving the Roman Catholic Church, and I’m saying this even though I’m Catholic.

It's more like we were kicked out because the pope had a problem with being questioned.
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Jack Thomas Lang
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Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:19 pm

Tarsonis wrote:Depends on how you define homosexuality.

Oh no, please don't tell me you buy into the nonsense how Paul was just talking about temple prostitutes or pederasty.
Last edited by Jack Thomas Lang on Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:21 pm

Lost Memories wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:As I understand this didn't just come recently, but has been something they've been arguing on or debating for the last decade at least. To me that suggests that an arranged split is viewed as being better to continuing an endless debate on the subject.

I imagine the intention to be the same. But it's still a declaration (or admission) of failure.

The ones proposing to lift the ban failed to get their suggestion across, so they left with their crowd.
The ones against the proposal failed to convince the proponents to desist, so they lost a piece.

There's a point at which continued failure is more unproductive than further argument. Ideally this will mean both have more energy and whatnot to do normal church things rather than internal arguments.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:57 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Depends on how you define homosexuality.

Oh no, please don't tell me you buy into the nonsense how Paul was just talking about temple prostitutes or pederasty.


He's not.
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Jack Thomas Lang
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Postby Jack Thomas Lang » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:00 pm

Salus Maior wrote:He's not.

Good to hear. Tarsonis is the Catholic rock of these threads.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:28 pm

Jack Thomas Lang wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:He's not.

Good to hear. Tarsonis is the Catholic rock of these threads.


People tend to define homosexuality as having the condition off same sex attraction. Having same sex attraction is involuntary, thus cannot be rightfully considered sinful. Others however consider homosexuality separately from same sexu attraction, and specifically in reference to indulging in and participating in same sex acts/lgbt culture/etc which would be sinful.


So how Iowa defines homosexuality is important to the context of his comments.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:39 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Lost Memories wrote:I imagine the intention to be the same. But it's still a declaration (or admission) of failure.

The ones proposing to lift the ban failed to get their suggestion across, so they left with their crowd.
The ones against the proposal failed to convince the proponents to desist, so they lost a piece.

There's a point at which continued failure is more unproductive than further argument. Ideally this will mean both have more energy and whatnot to do normal church things rather than internal arguments.

I'm not doubting that. I was rather focusing on the incipit.

To reuse their own words, the methodist split was the:
“best means to resolve our differences.” out of a failure to keep unity and agreement.
Last edited by Lost Memories on Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when in doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:25 am

Crusader Kings II.

It's 1450. Emperor Duncan VII 'The Tenacious' of Scotland, King of Scotland and Ireland, and liege lord of the kings of Wales and Estonia, is widowed.

Though committed to celibacy in his grief, he marries a Byzantine princess. Fascinated by her Orthodox faith, he secretly converts to Orthodoxy. A year later he openly embraces his new faith. His vassals and court soon follow suit. The mightiest state in northern Europe - one famous for its contributions to numerous crusades that have been so successful that even Mecca itself is controlled by the Christian Sultanate of Egypt - now acknowledges the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople instead of the Pope of Rome.

It's good to be an emperor.

(And yes, I know this is a RL thread; I just liked the idea of an Orthodox Empire of Scotland so much that I thought I'd share).

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:34 am

Tarsonis wrote:[...] participating in [...] lgbt culture [...] which would be sinful.

Is it though?

LGBT culture varies widely by geography and the identity of the participants. Elements common to cultures of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people include:

  • Works by famous gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, including:Contemporary LGBT artists and political figures. Historical figures identified as LGBT, although identifying historical figures with modern terms for sexual identity is controversial (see History of sexuality). However, many LGBT people feel a kinship with these people and their work (particularly that addressing same-sex attraction or gender identity); an example is VictoryFund.org, dedicated to supporting homosexual politicians.
  • An understanding of LGBT social movements
  • Figures and identities present in the LGBT community; within LGBT communities in Western culture, this might include drag kings and queens, pride parades and the rainbow flag.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_culture
Last edited by The New California Republic on Sat Jan 04, 2020 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:37 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:[...] participating in [...] lgbt culture [...] which would be sinful.

Is it though?

LGBT culture varies widely by geography and the identity of the participants. Elements common to cultures of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people include:

  • Works by famous gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people, including:Contemporary LGBT artists and political figures. Historical figures identified as LGBT, although identifying historical figures with modern terms for sexual identity is controversial (see History of sexuality). However, many LGBT people feel a kinship with these people and their work (particularly that addressing same-sex attraction or gender identity); an example is VictoryFund.org, dedicated to supporting homosexual politicians.
  • An understanding of LGBT social movements
  • Figures and identities present in the LGBT community; within LGBT communities in Western culture, this might include drag kings and queens, pride parades and the rainbow flag.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_culture



So would you consider NAMBLA morally dubious? That it’s members are engaged in morally abhorrent behavior in trying to normalize and legalize pedophilia?

*disclaimer: I’m in no way saying homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:41 am

Tarsonis wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Is it though?




So would you consider NAMBLA morally dubious? That it’s members are engaged in morally abhorrent behavior in trying to normalize and legalize pedophilia?

*disclaimer: I’m in no way saying homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing.

Why the fuck did you raise paedophilia right off the bat? The actual fuck Tarsonis? :unsure:
Last edited by The New California Republic on Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:43 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

So would you consider NAMBLA morally dubious? That it’s members are engaged in morally abhorrent behavior in trying to normalize and legalize pedophilia?

*disclaimer: I’m in no way saying homosexuality and pedophilia are the same thing.

Why the fuck did you raise paedophilia right off the bat? The actual fuck Tarsonis? :unsure:


Honestly, because I’m unsure of what exactly you consider moral and immoral behavior, so I picked a topic I thought you we’re very likely to consider immoral.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:45 am

Tarsonis wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Why the fuck did you raise paedophilia right off the bat? The actual fuck Tarsonis? :unsure:


Honestly, because I’m unsure of what exactly you consider moral and immoral behavior, so I picked a topic I thought you we’re very likely to consider immoral.

We were talking about LGBT culture being a "sin" or not, and you go off on a tangent about paedophilia. I still don't quite know what you are doing... :eyebrow:

If it's because you seriously believe that paedophilia is representative of LGBT culture, then I find that deeply troubling, as it's more than a bit weird that it's the first thing you thought of when asked the question about LGBT culture.
Last edited by The New California Republic on Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:53 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Honestly, because I’m unsure of what exactly you consider moral and immoral behavior, so I picked a topic I thought you we’re very likely to consider immoral.

We were talking about LGBT culture being a "sin" or not, and you go off on a tangent about paedophilia. I still don't quite know what you are doing... :eyebrow:


LGBT culture being a sin wouldn’t be accurate, as it’s an intangible quantity. Participating in it however would be. Which is the point I’m trying to draw up here.

Raping children is clearly morally abhorrent. Thus a group like NAMBLA that actively campaigns to normalize and legalize child rape, are engage in licentious action in doing so.


While homosexual sex between consenting adults is no where even close to the above, Christianity teaches that it’s a sin. Thus participating in lgbt culture, which ultimately seeks to normalize homosexual relationships, would also be licentious behavior.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005. Rightful winner of 2020 Presidential Election.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
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Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 04, 2020 5:59 am

Tarsonis wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:We were talking about LGBT culture being a "sin" or not, and you go off on a tangent about paedophilia. I still don't quite know what you are doing... :eyebrow:


LGBT culture being a sin wouldn’t be accurate, as it’s an intangible quantity. Participating in it however would be. Which is the point I’m trying to draw up here.

So reading books by LGBT authors would be a sin? Songs? Plays? Musicals? As that is participating in culture after all...

Tarsonis wrote:Raping children is clearly morally abhorrent. Thus a group like NAMBLA that actively campaigns to normalize and legalize child rape, are engage in licentious action in doing so.

Seriously just stop Tarsonis. It's bad enough that it's the first thing that came into your head when I mentioned LGBT culture.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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