Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[The New California Republic]

I don't care much either, as a Christian. There aren't any actual children here, and teenagers are capable of making their own decisions.

You don't care about other people's souls should they be led astray?

Sorry but I doubt some mere mentions of such things in an RP on a clearly fantasy-themed website is going lead anyone astray.

[Lost Memories]

Does anyone here believe that for someone to be a good Christian and purify themselves, it may be necessary to take a retreat or a spiritual journey of sorts out from society and into nature for a little while?

That's more or less the base idea on which monasticism was built.
It isn't an uniquely christian the idea to move away from the bustling society, when that society starts to look corrupted, and by relation, corrupting.

In many different religions, christianity included, it usually starts with some individuals moving away, to live like hermits.
Then if those hermits gain renown, more people start to look for them and build a community around them, with more people becoming hermits, but no longer individually but together with other hermits.
Sometimes, those communities manage to survive past the death of their founder, that's how stable communities of monks come to be.

The odd thing in christian history, was that at some point the communities of christian monks became so renowned and popular, that whole villages started to be built around them. So that reverses the original aim of getting some distance from society, society closed the distance instead. Monks were again in the middle of society.
(then a lot less poetic things happened, like nobles using the monk as land administrators, the nobles and aristocrats using the monastic communities as hostels or pensions to retire their own family members or even themselves once old, as that happened, the christian monastic communities set in the middle of society, became less and less religious in nature, some communities became very influential, then some were repressed, others died out)


The more light form, which doesn't require becoming a monk for life, is called a spiritual retreat, to go for some time in places away from the cities (most often), and spend the time with others to pray and generally have a relaxed holiday.
Spiritual retreats are not uncommon today.

[Lost Memories]

As mentioned yesterday, today, Laetare Sunday, sees a Papal Mass celebrating the fifth centenary of Philippine Christendom. This is one of several links to the livestream of said Mass.

Thanks for linking it.
Though the mass and the broadcast seems to be about to end right now, there should be some other moments later on during the angelus it seems.

[Kowani]

Ironic

[url]= https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/03/europe/e ... index.html] Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus calls for the country's entry to Eurovision to be dropped for promoting devil-worship[/url]

The Church of Cyprus has called for the country's official entry to the Eurovision Song Contest to be withdrawn, arguing that it promotes devil-worship.

Greek singer Elena Tsagrinou is due to represent the island nation in Rotterdam in May with the dance-y pop song "El Diablo."According to the contest's official website, the song is "about falling in love with someone as bad as El Diablo."The controversial entry includes lines such as "Tonight we gonna burn in a party, it's heaven in hell with you" and "I gave my heart to El Diablo ... because he tells me I'm his angel."

The Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus issued a strongly worded statement Tuesday in which it expressed "its intense disagreement and frustration" with the stance of national broadcaster Cyprus Broadcasting Corporation (CyBC) over the selection of the song.

It said the song "favored our global ridicule by advocating our surrender to the devil and promoting his worship," while praising the "fatalistic submission of humans to the devil's power."

In a statement issued through her label, Panik Records, Tsagrinou told CNN: "'El Diablo' is clearly an allegorical song! It says the story of a woman who manages to get out of a toxic relationship and sends a message of strength to the audience. Music unites us all, it does not divide us!"

She said she and her collaborators "remain committed to our goal; to represent Cyprus worthily in the music contest."CyBC chairman Andreas Frangos told local journalists that the broadcaster had no plans to withdraw "El Diablo" from the competition.

The corporation told CNN in a statement: "The song tells the story of a girl who finds herself trapped in an exploitative relationship with a bad guy, hence she calls him 'el diablo'. It is the eternal struggle between evil and good. Through this problematic Stockholm Syndrome relationship and despite the paranoia she experiences, in the end the truth always shines, and she seeks help to break the ties on a path to freedom."

"Any other interpretation has nothing to do with the meaning of the song," CyBC added, "which especially nowadays should not only be applauded, but also be an inspiration not only for women but for anyone experiencing similar situations."

Dismissing the CyBC's "metaphorical interpretation," the church described the lyrics as "provocative and unacceptable" and "completely at odds with our people's values."

It said it had been contacted by "thousands" of citizens expressing displeasure at the song “We call on the government who appoints CyBC's board of directors to cancel the selection of this particular song and replace it with a different one which expresses our history and culture, our traditions and our claims," the church said.

Victoras Papadopoulos, director of the president's press office, said in a statement: "We respect the views of the Holy Synod or of those who disagree with the title of the song that will represent Cyprus in this year's Eurovision At the same time, however, the Government fully respects creative intellectual and artistic freedom that cannot be misinterpreted or limited because of a song's title, and unnecessary dimensions should not be attributed."

The full statement can be found here

And of course, the music video itself can be found here (minor waning for lots of flashing lights) Kowani News Network accepts no liability for any demonic possession or acts undertaken while under such a condition that may come about as a result of watching this video

[Lost Memories]

Ironic

Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus calls for the country's entry to Eurovision to be dropped for promoting devil-worship

Greek singer Elena Tsagrinou is due to represent the Cyprus in Rotterdam in May with the dance-y pop song "El Diablo."

The corporation told CNN in a statement: "The song tells the story of a girl who finds herself trapped in an exploitative relationship with a bad guy, hence she calls him 'el diablo'. It is the eternal struggle between evil and good. Through this problematic Stockholm Syndrome relationship and despite the paranoia she experiences, in the end the truth always shines, and she seeks help to break the ties on a path to freedom."

Dismissing the CyBC's "metaphorical interpretation," the Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus described the lyrics as "provocative and unacceptable" and "completely at odds with our people's values."

The full statement can be found here

And of course, the music video itself can be found here (minor waning for lots of flashing lights) Kowani News Network accepts no liability for any demonic possession or acts undertaken while under such a condition that may come about as a result of watching this video

Lyrics of the song (the video also has the lyrics in the video description)
The claimed turn-around of the song, in condemning abusive relationships, doesn't seem to be in the song. Corporations lying, what a surprise.
If the song is supposed to be about abusive relationships, then the song, as it is, is glorifying abusive relationships.

The synod said the song "favored our global ridicule by advocating our surrender to the devil and promoting his worship," while praising the "fatalistic submission of humans to the devil's power."

I think the "global ridicule" part may be the bigger issue here. As an orthodox church, the church of Cyprus may lose a bit of face to the other orthodox national churches, because of that song being hailed as representative of Cyprus.
Regardless of the song being recalled or not (probably not), it must have been necessary for the orthodox church of Cyprus to take distance from it.


These parts from the church's statement were also telling:

Even if we look at the lyrics of the song from any point of view and with any given explanations, they do not remotely send the appropriate messages that should be sent by a semi-occupied country, that fights for liberation and prevention of its complete enslavement.

With the visible danger of the provocative bulimia of the Turkish conquerors, and giving prominence to the greatness of the two hundredth anniversary from the National Palingenesis, we call on our people to remain committed to the national and religious values of the great struggle of 1821, and to keep their steadfast loyalty to their fathers' faith, which is a constant that has safeguarded them to this day.

But in all this, the biggest flaw I am seeing, is believing the Eurovision song contest to have ever been representative of national cultures.
It has hardly ever been, Eurovision has always been a shitshow. And it's getting more ridiculous and edgy with each season passing.
There is too much money and sponsorships flowing inside that contest, it's only a natural development, for the songs selected for it, to be more and more commercial and controversial for the sake of attention seeking and advertising revenue. Culture has nothing to do with that contest.

[Punished UMN]

You know it's a stereotype among some that God chose the most pious and righteous people to speak to, but it actually would make sense if he chose the opposite. If you have a man who's strayed from the path and is lost, divine revelation may be the key to saving him.

This happens a lot more than you think. A short list:
St. Mary of Egypt (Lived a very troubled life before becoming a hermitess in the Egyptian desert.)

Given we'll be reading the life of St. Mary of Egypt soon, I found this euphemism kind of funny.

[Tarsonis]

Ironic

[url]= https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/03/europe/e ... index.html] Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus calls for the country's entry to Eurovision to be dropped for promoting devil-worship[/url]

The Church of Cyprus has called for the country's official entry to the Eurovision Song Contest to be withdrawn, arguing that it promotes devil-worship.

Greek singer Elena Tsagrinou is due to represent the island nation in Rotterdam in May with the dance-y pop song "El Diablo."According to the contest's official website, the song is "about falling in love with someone as bad as El Diablo."The controversial entry includes lines such as "Tonight we gonna burn in a party, it's heaven in hell with you" and "I gave my heart to El Diablo ... because he tells me I'm his angel."

The Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus issued a strongly worded statement Tuesday in which it expressed "its intense disagreement and frustration" with the stance of national broadcaster Cyprus Broadcasting Corporation (CyBC) over the selection of the song.

It said the song "favored our global ridicule by advocating our surrender to the devil and promoting his worship," while praising the "fatalistic submission of humans to the devil's power."

In a statement issued through her label, Panik Records, Tsagrinou told CNN: "'El Diablo' is clearly an allegorical song! It says the story of a woman who manages to get out of a toxic relationship and sends a message of strength to the audience. Music unites us all, it does not divide us!"

She said she and her collaborators "remain committed to our goal; to represent Cyprus worthily in the music contest."CyBC chairman Andreas Frangos told local journalists that the broadcaster had no plans to withdraw "El Diablo" from the competition.

The corporation told CNN in a statement: "The song tells the story of a girl who finds herself trapped in an exploitative relationship with a bad guy, hence she calls him 'el diablo'. It is the eternal struggle between evil and good. Through this problematic Stockholm Syndrome relationship and despite the paranoia she experiences, in the end the truth always shines, and she seeks help to break the ties on a path to freedom."

"Any other interpretation has nothing to do with the meaning of the song," CyBC added, "which especially nowadays should not only be applauded, but also be an inspiration not only for women but for anyone experiencing similar situations."

Dismissing the CyBC's "metaphorical interpretation," the church described the lyrics as "provocative and unacceptable" and "completely at odds with our people's values."

It said it had been contacted by "thousands" of citizens expressing displeasure at the song “We call on the government who appoints CyBC's board of directors to cancel the selection of this particular song and replace it with a different one which expresses our history and culture, our traditions and our claims," the church said.

Victoras Papadopoulos, director of the president's press office, said in a statement: "We respect the views of the Holy Synod or of those who disagree with the title of the song that will represent Cyprus in this year's Eurovision At the same time, however, the Government fully respects creative intellectual and artistic freedom that cannot be misinterpreted or limited because of a song's title, and unnecessary dimensions should not be attributed."

The full statement can be found here

And of course, the music video itself can be found here (minor waning for lots of flashing lights) Kowani News Network accepts no liability for any demonic possession or acts undertaken while under such a condition that may come about as a result of watching this video

Meanwhile in America, be sure to catch the final season of "Lucifer" on Netflix. (It's actually a pretty good show.)

[Tarsonis]

Well based on the Shroud of Turin, He was 5'11" and had AB+ blood. As far as His genome? I imagine it was a human's genome.

I'm sure that would be relevant if Jesus died a thousand years later, when people used herringbone weaves to create shrouds that carbon date to that period.

I'm sure you're aware we doubt the accuracy of the Radio carbon dating, so bringing this up literally serves nothing.

[Luminesa]

This happens a lot more than you think. A short list:
St. Mary of Egypt (Lived a very troubled life before becoming a hermitess in the Egyptian desert.)

Given we'll be reading the life of St. Mary of Egypt soon, I found this euphemism kind of funny.

Honestly I couldn’t remember all the details of what had happened in her life, but she was a hard-partying woman before she turned her life to Jesus.

[Luminesa]

Well based on the Shroud of Turin, He was 5'11" and had AB+ blood. As far as His genome? I imagine it was a human's genome.

I'm sure that would be relevant if Jesus died a thousand years later, when people used herringbone weaves to create shrouds that carbon date to that period.

Eh?

[The Archregimancy]

I'm sure that would be relevant if Jesus died a thousand years later, when people used herringbone weaves to create shrouds that carbon date to that period.

I'm sure you're aware we doubt the accuracy of the Radio carbon dating, so bringing this up literally serves nothing.

And as I'm sure you're aware, the archaeologist posting in the thread who's actually sent off objects off for radiocarbon dating, and has taught radiocarbon dating at university level, thinks that it's badly misguided to reject the dating of the Shroud samples, which was about as watertight as we could ever expect this type of radiocarbon dating to be.

As you already know, that I'm fairly confident that the Shroud is medieval in date also doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's a deliberate forgery. I'm perfectly happy to see it as a work of faith; as a form of icon produced with good intent. But the authentic death shroud of Jesus of Nazareth? No; that's completely untenable.

But I also know we're not going to get anywhere trying to rehash this all over again.

[Tarsonis]

I'm sure you're aware we doubt the accuracy of the Radio carbon dating, so bringing this up literally serves nothing.

And as I'm sure you're aware, the archaeologist posting in the thread who's actually sent off objects off for radiocarbon dating, and has taught radiocarbon dating at university level, thinks that it's badly misguided to reject the dating of the Shroud samples, which was about as watertight as we could ever expect this type of radiocarbon dating to be.

As you already know, that I'm fairly confident that the Shroud is medieval in date also doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's a deliberate forgery. I'm perfectly happy to see it as a work of faith; as a form of icon produced with good intent. But the authentic death shroud of Jesus of Nazareth? No; that's completely untenable.

But I also know we're not going to get anywhere trying to rehash this all over again.

I wasn't the one bringing it up, nor trying to rehash the debate. I was merely highlighting the pointlessness of using a line of argumentation the recipient already openly rejects. So your interjection here just to dunk on me/us here is completely unwarranted.

[The Archregimancy]

And as I'm sure you're aware, the archaeologist posting in the thread who's actually sent off objects off for radiocarbon dating, and has taught radiocarbon dating at university level, thinks that it's badly misguided to reject the dating of the Shroud samples, which was about as watertight as we could ever expect this type of radiocarbon dating to be.

As you already know, that I'm fairly confident that the Shroud is medieval in date also doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's a deliberate forgery. I'm perfectly happy to see it as a work of faith; as a form of icon produced with good intent. But the authentic death shroud of Jesus of Nazareth? No; that's completely untenable.

But I also know we're not going to get anywhere trying to rehash this all over again.

I wasn't the one bringing it up, nor trying to rehash the debate. I was merely highlighting the pointlessness of using a line of argumentation the recipient already openly rejects. So your interjection here just to dunk on me/us here is completely unwarranted.

I'm not trying to 'dunk on you', and I'm sorry if it came across that way.

But I likewise think it's entirely appropriate to bring up that I think that the C14 dating of the Shroud was, in my considered professional opinion, entirely legitimate when someone is trying to dismiss that dating. Even if I'm realistic about not being able to change your mind, there are other people who read this thread.

[Punished UMN]

I'm sure that would be relevant if Jesus died a thousand years later, when people used herringbone weaves to create shrouds that carbon date to that period.

Eh?

Based on the weaving techniques in the shroud and the radiocarbon dating of the shroud, it is not possible for it to have been old enough to have been Christ's burial shroud. As Arch said, it was mostly likely intended as an item of religious devotion that later was mistakenly conflated with the historical item.

[Punished UMN]

Although, I should also say that it does not have to be the authentic burial shroud of Christ to be an authentic relic, the Church has several (I don't know if I'd say many, but several) instances of divine images which appear to potentially be divinely created iconography. So even if it isn't the authentic burial shroud, one could still hold the creation of the image on it to be miraculous.

[Salus Maior]

Charlemagne (Not a canonized Saint but an enormous force for Christianity in the “Dark Ages”, could hardly read.)

He is Beatified though.

[Salus Maior]

Although, I should also say that it does not have to be the authentic burial shroud of Christ to be an authentic relic, the Church has several (I don't know if I'd say many, but several) instances of divine images which appear to potentially be divinely created iconography. So even if it isn't the authentic burial shroud, one could still hold the creation of the image on it to be miraculous.

^ That's a decent point.

[Sundiata]

Not to sound star-struck or shallow again but can you blame me? Jesus is not just a perfect human, he is perfection itself. His way of being is not just a big deal, that's the biggest deal that there could possibly be. I can't help but be overwhelmed every time we approach the topic of Christ.

Well, yeah, He's God.

It would be nice to be that perfect, all we can do is imitate.

[Sundiata]

That was a pretty big mistake, thank you correcting me on the prophets. Not Abraham, Moses. I can't believe I've been saying Abraham this whole time.

Still, God nonetheless revealed his nature to Moses by telling him his name. "Ehyeh asher ehyeh" is how God referred to himself in the first person, "Yahweh asher Yahweh" is how Moses referred to God in the third person. "Yahweh," the english translation from Hebrew, is the shortened form of God's name in the third person.

Ok. You make a good point regardless.

Yeah, it's exciting.

Christ has in himself the purpose of his life as the non-contingent basis for all contingency. The fact that he isn't ordered by anything but himself makes his love the most profound possible love. It takes a lot for most people to really love someone, conditions. But not Christ, he does unconditional love with ease because it's what he is, unconditional.

[Salus Maior]

Ironic

[url]= https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/03/europe/e ... index.html] Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus calls for the country's entry to Eurovision to be dropped for promoting devil-worship[/url]

The Church of Cyprus has called for the country's official entry to the Eurovision Song Contest to be withdrawn, arguing that it promotes devil-worship.

Greek singer Elena Tsagrinou is due to represent the island nation in Rotterdam in May with the dance-y pop song "El Diablo."According to the contest's official website, the song is "about falling in love with someone as bad as El Diablo."The controversial entry includes lines such as "Tonight we gonna burn in a party, it's heaven in hell with you" and "I gave my heart to El Diablo ... because he tells me I'm his angel."

The Holy Synod of the Orthodox Church of Cyprus issued a strongly worded statement Tuesday in which it expressed "its intense disagreement and frustration" with the stance of national broadcaster Cyprus Broadcasting Corporation (CyBC) over the selection of the song.

It said the song "favored our global ridicule by advocating our surrender to the devil and promoting his worship," while praising the "fatalistic submission of humans to the devil's power."

In a statement issued through her label, Panik Records, Tsagrinou told CNN: "'El Diablo' is clearly an allegorical song! It says the story of a woman who manages to get out of a toxic relationship and sends a message of strength to the audience. Music unites us all, it does not divide us!"

She said she and her collaborators "remain committed to our goal; to represent Cyprus worthily in the music contest."CyBC chairman Andreas Frangos told local journalists that the broadcaster had no plans to withdraw "El Diablo" from the competition.

The corporation told CNN in a statement: "The song tells the story of a girl who finds herself trapped in an exploitative relationship with a bad guy, hence she calls him 'el diablo'. It is the eternal struggle between evil and good. Through this problematic Stockholm Syndrome relationship and despite the paranoia she experiences, in the end the truth always shines, and she seeks help to break the ties on a path to freedom."

"Any other interpretation has nothing to do with the meaning of the song," CyBC added, "which especially nowadays should not only be applauded, but also be an inspiration not only for women but for anyone experiencing similar situations."

Dismissing the CyBC's "metaphorical interpretation," the church described the lyrics as "provocative and unacceptable" and "completely at odds with our people's values."

It said it had been contacted by "thousands" of citizens expressing displeasure at the song “We call on the government who appoints CyBC's board of directors to cancel the selection of this particular song and replace it with a different one which expresses our history and culture, our traditions and our claims," the church said.

Victoras Papadopoulos, director of the president's press office, said in a statement: "We respect the views of the Holy Synod or of those who disagree with the title of the song that will represent Cyprus in this year's Eurovision At the same time, however, the Government fully respects creative intellectual and artistic freedom that cannot be misinterpreted or limited because of a song's title, and unnecessary dimensions should not be attributed."

The full statement can be found here

And of course, the music video itself can be found here (minor waning for lots of flashing lights) Kowani News Network accepts no liability for any demonic possession or acts undertaken while under such a condition that may come about as a result of watching this video

Well, it's not just the Synod being upset apparently. As it notes apparently there's a bit of a popular movement against that song being used to represent Cyprus.

[Sundiata]

You're skipping a few bits there but you know that already. And you know that I know.

Oh yeah, God is the non-contingent basis for all of nature's contingent things that depend on previous causes, things like us. He's where we come from.

"Consider your origins: you were not made to live as brutes, but to follow virtue and knowledge."
-Dante Alighieri

[Neanderthaland]

I'm sure that would be relevant if Jesus died a thousand years later, when people used herringbone weaves to create shrouds that carbon date to that period.

I'm sure you're aware we doubt the accuracy of the Radio carbon dating, so bringing this up literally serves nothing.

I'm aware that unreasonable Christians doubt the accuracy of radio carbon dating. I'm also aware that most Christians (perhaps even a sizable majority) are not unreasonable, and can see past the misinformation of Ken Ham and his like.

I am further aware that developments in textile production are not a point of vast scholarly dispute.

[Tarsonis]

I'm sure you're aware we doubt the accuracy of the Radio carbon dating, so bringing this up literally serves nothing.

I'm aware that unreasonable Christians doubt the accuracy of radio carbon dating. I'm also aware that most Christians (perhaps even a sizable majority) are not unreasonable, and can see past the misinformation of Ken Ham and his like.

I am further aware that developments in textile production are not a point of vast scholarly dispute.

Not of radio carbon dating as a whole, only in particular to the dating of shroud of Turin, which regardless of what Arch says, is still the subject of considerable controversy.

Further the textile issue is hardly settled, with even the archeological journals that attest to the issue acknowledge their finds are far from conclusive.

But of course all this gets overlooked by colon self inspecting atheists who like to think of themselves as smarter than religious folk.

[Neanderthaland]

I'm aware that unreasonable Christians doubt the accuracy of radio carbon dating. I'm also aware that most Christians (perhaps even a sizable majority) are not unreasonable, and can see past the misinformation of Ken Ham and his like.

I am further aware that developments in textile production are not a point of vast scholarly dispute.

Not of radio carbon dating as a whole, only in particular to the dating of shroud of Turin, which regardless of what Arch says, is still the subject of considerable controversy.

Further the textile issue is hardly settled, with even the archeological journals that attest to the issue acknowledge their finds are far from conclusive.

But of course all this gets overlooked by colon self inspecting atheists who like to think of themselves as smarter than religious folk.

It's a controversy in the same way that vaccines are a controversy. There's a group of people that really, REALLY want there to be a controversy. And keep insisting that there is one, in spite of everything.

No one, and I mean no one, would seriously doubt the word of archeologists who say herringbone weave didn't exist in the 1st Century, if it wasn't for the religious appeal of this shroud.

[The New California Republic]

Not of radio carbon dating as a whole, only in particular to the dating of shroud of Turin, which regardless of what Arch says, is still the subject of considerable controversy.

Further the textile issue is hardly settled, with even the archeological journals that attest to the issue acknowledge their finds are far from conclusive.

But of course all this gets overlooked by colon self inspecting atheists who like to think of themselves as smarter than religious folk.

It's a controversy in the same way that vaccines are a controversy. There's a group of people that really, REALLY want there to be a controversy. And keep insisting that there is one, in spite of everything.

No one, and I mean no one, would seriously doubt the word of archeologists who say herringbone weave didn't exist in the 1st Century, if it wasn't for the religious appeal of this shroud.

Plus I'm more inclined to believe the person here who has experience with radiocarbon dating who has chipped into this discussion, who said that the notion of the Turin Shroud actually being the death shroud of Jesus is "completely untenable."