Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Tarsonis]

I have to say that while I understand sometimes this thread has its moments when it is slow, recently we have had quite a lot of arguments back and forth about human trafficking in this thread. In particular, people were upset over the article about German nuns trafficking children, and not because of the actual story, but because they wanted to debate it had come from a tabloid (when Kowani graciously posted more reputable links in the same vein as his first post on the subject) and thus should not be taken seriously. Others did then back-track and say that the issue was important. You know who you are.

And so this morning, given that the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops marked this day as a Day of Prayer and Awareness of Human Trafficking, I figured that we might be able to turn some of that anger into something that not only will bring healing to the Church, but to ALL people who have ever lost a child or a family member to trafficking. I figured WE could stand-up for the voiceless. I don't have Facebook, I don't use most other social media for a variety of reasons (Facebook and Twitter are inherently toxic and also spy on you), but there are absolutely people HERE who can spread the word to those larger websites because THEY have those social media accounts. And so I posted resources to give people some way to educate themselves, to pray on this matter, to even take a second, just a second, out of their day to consider the active AMBER Alert in Davenport, IA,and to pray for this missing little girl's rescue. While we are having our debates on this website, her life is in imminent danger.

I am ashamed that I have to write this post. This is not me saying, "Why is nobody responding to Lumi's post?" This is a matter of people taking their time to show they are willing to step-up as people, as Catholics, as whatever denomination you are when you come into this thread. I speak to my Catholic brothers and sisters who have come and scolded other posters for daring to point-out that we have wounds to heal in our Church, and I say: Shame. On. You.

Even just a SINGLE prayer for one of these children could save their life. The little girl who was kidnapped in New Iberia, Louisiana could have been gone forever, if not both for the man who found her during his service route and for the many, many prayers that most likely went out for her safe return. I don't take this silence as an insult to me. I take it as an insult to these children who cannot speak for themselves. Who need genuine pro-life voices to fight for them. They are voiceless. Little Jalisa Dessalle was voiceless. The thousands of other children on The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's website are voiceless. Shame. On. You.

THANK YOU, New California Republic, for taking a moment out of your day to acknowledge these resources on behalf of these missing children. I hope you are able to pass them to someone who needs them. (There are other resources for the UK, I imagine, but I can go look for those as well.)

These children's lives are on our hands. Remember what Christ told His followers in Matthew 25: "Whatsoever you have done for the least of these, so you have done onto Me."

Sorry. I offered up prayers to St. Mary, St. Jude, St. Michael, and of course Our Father. I just didn't respond.

[Tarsonis]

Poverty is by far one of the biggest causes of child trafficking, so tackling poverty is the best way to tackle this issue.

The problem is that so long as people either make bad decisions or have bad circumstances, at least some people out there will remain poor. Its even more complicated that its not mutually exclusive. We have to conclude that the LBJ attempt of a war on poverty failed. Every approach to resolving it seems to require post scarcity. Which doesn't look like will happen.

The larger point is that some people will regularly waste or not recognize opportunities that others might and so on. That is the cost of incompetence or mistakes. Every society that has formed seems to naturally divide itself into a low, middle, and high in due time. And if you've declined or already are of low status, there are only so many ways to get on the path of financial mobility if not stability, which is that it probably won't happen without wiser choices if not sacrifice.

Bad begets more bad and the opposite seems true as well, where if you make truly good decisions, it leads to better outcomes that build on eachother, similar to how enough money makes more money by default just in terms of interest or investments.

That's pretty rich coming from an unabashed fascist.

[Luminesa]

^ Try not to read too much into the lack of responses, as people sometimes just don't respond because the subject matter is difficult to think about and acknowledge. You might have made a difference without realising it, as having talked about it has made people at least aware that it's still an issue that needs dealt with.

That‘s fair. Reading a lot of these cases has made me very emotional and scared for these children.

[Luminesa]

I have to say that while I understand sometimes this thread has its moments when it is slow, recently we have had quite a lot of arguments back and forth about human trafficking in this thread. In particular, people were upset over the article about German nuns trafficking children, and not because of the actual story, but because they wanted to debate it had come from a tabloid (when Kowani graciously posted more reputable links in the same vein as his first post on the subject) and thus should not be taken seriously. Others did then back-track and say that the issue was important. You know who you are.

And so this morning, given that the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops marked this day as a Day of Prayer and Awareness of Human Trafficking, I figured that we might be able to turn some of that anger into something that not only will bring healing to the Church, but to ALL people who have ever lost a child or a family member to trafficking. I figured WE could stand-up for the voiceless. I don't have Facebook, I don't use most other social media for a variety of reasons (Facebook and Twitter are inherently toxic and also spy on you), but there are absolutely people HERE who can spread the word to those larger websites because THEY have those social media accounts. And so I posted resources to give people some way to educate themselves, to pray on this matter, to even take a second, just a second, out of their day to consider the active AMBER Alert in Davenport, IA,and to pray for this missing little girl's rescue. While we are having our debates on this website, her life is in imminent danger.

I am ashamed that I have to write this post. This is not me saying, "Why is nobody responding to Lumi's post?" This is a matter of people taking their time to show they are willing to step-up as people, as Catholics, as whatever denomination you are when you come into this thread. I speak to my Catholic brothers and sisters who have come and scolded other posters for daring to point-out that we have wounds to heal in our Church, and I say: Shame. On. You.

Even just a SINGLE prayer for one of these children could save their life. The little girl who was kidnapped in New Iberia, Louisiana could have been gone forever, if not both for the man who found her during his service route and for the many, many prayers that most likely went out for her safe return. I don't take this silence as an insult to me. I take it as an insult to these children who cannot speak for themselves. Who need genuine pro-life voices to fight for them. They are voiceless. Little Jalisa Dessalle was voiceless. The thousands of other children on The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's website are voiceless. Shame. On. You.

THANK YOU, New California Republic, for taking a moment out of your day to acknowledge these resources on behalf of these missing children. I hope you are able to pass them to someone who needs them. (There are other resources for the UK, I imagine, but I can go look for those as well.)

These children's lives are on our hands. Remember what Christ told His followers in Matthew 25: "Whatsoever you have done for the least of these, so you have done onto Me."

Sorry. I offered up prayers to St. Mary, St. Jude, St. Michael, and of course Our Father. I just didn't respond.

Thank you.

[The Marlborough]

In particular, people were upset over the article about German nuns trafficking children, and not because of the actual story, but because they wanted to debate it had come from a tabloid (when Kowani graciously posted more reputable links in the same vein as his first post on the subject) and thus should not be taken seriously. Others did then back-track and say that the issue was important. You know who you are.

Overall great post and my thoughts and prayers have been with missing children today and many others. This bit here though I wanted to single out as the basis as why I'm checking out of the CDT. The kind of knee jerk reaction to defend, defend, defend is precisely the kind of shit that has led to numerous abuses being covered up in the name of "battling anti-whatever" and in this instance anti-Catholicism. It is actually evil. Not just gross and wrong but actually evil. It's the kind of shit that has also started driving my wife, who is Roman Catholic, away from it (that and the whole Amazonian Synod fiasco and the issues surrounding residential schools).

Honestly, yeah, shame on y'all. And shame on the rest of us for not putting this kind of shit in its place ITT and elsewhere.

[Sundiata]

Honestly, yeah, shame on y'all. And shame on the rest of us for not putting this kind of shit in its place ITT and elsewhere.

I've generally seen a good balance. We don't defend all the actions of clergy and consecrated people. We also don't defend every action of the laity also. We do a pretty good job at even handed defense and criticism.

[Lost Memories]

@Lumi
For what concerns me.
Before your post giving visibility to the tragedy of human trafficking, I posted this:

The youtube channel of the vatican just streamed the audience of the pope with the diplomatic corps.
The speech of the pope to the diplomats was not very different from the his common comments after the angelus prayer, but with more details on the various international issues.

Dubbed in English
Dubbed in Spanish
Dubbed in Portuguese
Dubbed in German
Dubbed in French
Dubbed in Italian
Original sound (opening in french from the ambassador of cyprus, speech of the pope in italian)
Other channels in other languages
(the vietnamese channel seem to be very popular, they don't have the translation up yet, must be because of the timezone difference)

Original stream, with some of the farewells which were cut at the end. (it may be available for around 10 hours)

Which among many topics, also covered that matter. (which had also been previously addressed by the Pope on Feb 7 during the angelus)
So I didn't reply to you, because you were repeating with more detail something I had already given visibility to.

Take some of your spare time, and watch that.


Keep being charming and charitable, and truthful.

[The New California Republic]

@Lumi
For what concerns me.
Before your post giving visibility to the tragedy of human trafficking, I posted this:

The youtube channel of the vatican just streamed the audience of the pope with the diplomatic corps.
The speech of the pope to the diplomats was not very different from the his common comments after the angelus prayer, but with more details on the various international issues.

Dubbed in English
Dubbed in Spanish
Dubbed in Portuguese
Dubbed in German
Dubbed in French
Dubbed in Italian
Original sound (opening in french from the ambassador of cyprus, speech of the pope in italian)
Other channels in other languages
(the vietnamese channel seem to be very popular, they don't have the translation up yet, must be because of the timezone difference)

Original stream, with some of the farewells which were cut at the end. (it may be available for around 10 hours)

Which among many topics, also covered that matter. (which had also been previously addressed by the Pope on Feb 7 during the angelus)
So I didn't reply to you, because you were repeating with more detail something I had already given visibility to.

Take some of your spare time, and watch that.


Keep being charming and charitable, and truthful.

Using the transcript here, it only makes mention of trafficking twice in a general sense, and not child trafficking specifically, all in a very long address that discusses other matters too; so Luminesa can be entirely forgiven for not really considering what you said as a valid stand-in for an acknowledgement.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

^ Try not to read too much into the lack of responses, as people sometimes just don't respond because the subject matter is difficult to think about and acknowledge. You might have made a difference without realising it, as having talked about it has made people at least aware that it's still an issue that needs dealt with.

That‘s fair. Reading a lot of these cases has made me very emotional and scared for these children.

At every waking moment there is someone, somewhere who is suffering. Someone, somewhere is starving. Drowning. Dehydrated. Infected. Poisoned. They are being robbed, beaten, raped, enslaved, murdered, kidnapped, tortured. Someone, somewhere is being buried alive in the middle of a desert. He will suffocate before anyone finds him - if anyone finds him. It is quite literally impossible for the Earth to go a single day without so much as one of it's 7 billion inhabitants suffering or dying. As I'm typing this some guy in Tokyo could be getting mugged right now. Every day on this Earth is one of death and suffering and as a generally empathetic person this is difficult for me to think about, especially when I know that in the vast majority of cases there is nothing I can do to help. It's very depressing.

You have a good heart, Lumi. But I hope you can understand why I'd rather not spend my time thinking about all the death and suffering in the world at every waking moment. Praying is nice and all, but it's not a superpower. It's not God's bat signal. Everyone in the world can pray for the right outcome and it can still go wrong. Sometimes you really are powerless to help. It's sad, but there's no point dwelling on it. So I don't.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

[Sundiata]

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

It can definitely be annoying but I still think it's a good thing anyway. We've at least got the responsibility to pray and do good for people in rough situations. Also, if we have the money, to give to good causes and people in rough situations. A minor inconvenience isn't the worst.

[Luminesa]

@Lumi
For what concerns me.
Before your post giving visibility to the tragedy of human trafficking, I posted this:

The youtube channel of the vatican just streamed the audience of the pope with the diplomatic corps.
The speech of the pope to the diplomats was not very different from the his common comments after the angelus prayer, but with more details on the various international issues.

Dubbed in English
Dubbed in Spanish
Dubbed in Portuguese
Dubbed in German
Dubbed in French
Dubbed in Italian
Original sound (opening in french from the ambassador of cyprus, speech of the pope in italian)
Other channels in other languages
(the vietnamese channel seem to be very popular, they don't have the translation up yet, must be because of the timezone difference)

Original stream, with some of the farewells which were cut at the end. (it may be available for around 10 hours)

Which among many topics, also covered that matter. (which had also been previously addressed by the Pope on Feb 7 during the angelus)
So I didn't reply to you, because you were repeating with more detail something I had already given visibility to.

Take some of your spare time, and watch that.


Keep being charming and charitable, and truthful.

With all love and respect to the Holy Father, I was specifically addressing this day set aside by the USCCB, which Pope Francis also has given approval for, and something which I think is worthwhile to address specifically. The Holy Father is doing plenty to try and heal the Church, but WE the LAITY have a job to do.

[Luminesa]

That‘s fair. Reading a lot of these cases has made me very emotional and scared for these children.

At every waking moment there is someone, somewhere who is suffering. Someone, somewhere is starving. Drowning. Dehydrated. Infected. Poisoned. They are being robbed, beaten, raped, enslaved, murdered, kidnapped, tortured. Someone, somewhere is being buried alive in the middle of a desert. He will suffocate before anyone finds him - if anyone finds him. It is quite literally impossible for the Earth to go a single day without so much as one of it's 7 billion inhabitants suffering or dying. As I'm typing this some guy in Tokyo could be getting mugged right now. Every day on this Earth is one of death and suffering and as a generally empathetic person this is difficult for me to think about, especially when I know that in the vast majority of cases there is nothing I can do to help. It's very depressing.

You have a good heart, Lumi. But I hope you can understand why I'd rather not spend my time thinking about all the death and suffering in the world at every waking moment. Praying is nice and all, but it's not a superpower. It's not God's bat signal. Everyone in the world can pray for the right outcome and it can still go wrong. Sometimes you really are powerless to help. It's sad, but there's no point dwelling on it. So I don't.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

Jesus said that if you have the faith of a mustard seed you can move a mountain. That’s a superpower. Just pray for one child, one missing child in your area. Spread around the information about them so that people can find them. You have more power than you think, and do not deny God the ability to use you for great things.

[Luminesa]

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

It can definitely be annoying but I still think it's a good thing anyway. We've at least got the responsibility to pray and do good for people in rough situations. Also, if we have the money, to give to good causes and people in rough situations. A minor inconvenience isn't the worst.

Imagine being minorly inconvenienced by the idea of praying for a 10-year-old girl who is missing, or a 10-day-old infant who was kidnapped from his family, or for a 14-year-old girl who has been missing since 1992. These children are our heritage and our future, God Himself puts before us life and death in Deuteronomy. Choose life, that you and your descendants may live. And choosing life sometimes is just praying for a tiny baby who cannot defend themselves.

[The New California Republic]

That‘s fair. Reading a lot of these cases has made me very emotional and scared for these children.

At every waking moment there is someone, somewhere who is suffering. Someone, somewhere is starving. Drowning. Dehydrated. Infected. Poisoned. They are being robbed, beaten, raped, enslaved, murdered, kidnapped, tortured. Someone, somewhere is being buried alive in the middle of a desert. He will suffocate before anyone finds him - if anyone finds him. It is quite literally impossible for the Earth to go a single day without so much as one of it's 7 billion inhabitants suffering or dying. As I'm typing this some guy in Tokyo could be getting mugged right now. Every day on this Earth is one of death and suffering and as a generally empathetic person this is difficult for me to think about, especially when I know that in the vast majority of cases there is nothing I can do to help. It's very depressing.

You have a good heart, Lumi. But I hope you can understand why I'd rather not spend my time thinking about all the death and suffering in the world at every waking moment. Praying is nice and all, but it's not a superpower. It's not God's bat signal. Everyone in the world can pray for the right outcome and it can still go wrong. Sometimes you really are powerless to help. It's sad, but there's no point dwelling on it. So I don't.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

Nobody is saying that a person should try to put the weight of the world on their shoulders by trying to cure every single social ill that is out there. The emphasis is more on a person just doing what they are able to, in the time they have, with the means and ability that they have. Even if people do that, then we'd find that a wide variety of social ills would be dealt with.

[Luminesa]

At every waking moment there is someone, somewhere who is suffering. Someone, somewhere is starving. Drowning. Dehydrated. Infected. Poisoned. They are being robbed, beaten, raped, enslaved, murdered, kidnapped, tortured. Someone, somewhere is being buried alive in the middle of a desert. He will suffocate before anyone finds him - if anyone finds him. It is quite literally impossible for the Earth to go a single day without so much as one of it's 7 billion inhabitants suffering or dying. As I'm typing this some guy in Tokyo could be getting mugged right now. Every day on this Earth is one of death and suffering and as a generally empathetic person this is difficult for me to think about, especially when I know that in the vast majority of cases there is nothing I can do to help. It's very depressing.

You have a good heart, Lumi. But I hope you can understand why I'd rather not spend my time thinking about all the death and suffering in the world at every waking moment. Praying is nice and all, but it's not a superpower. It's not God's bat signal. Everyone in the world can pray for the right outcome and it can still go wrong. Sometimes you really are powerless to help. It's sad, but there's no point dwelling on it. So I don't.

I'm not trying to say you shouldn't post about this stuff, just don't be surprised if no one responds. Some people don't like thinking about that stuff. I am one of them. I hope you understand; I'm not trying to be rude or dismissive.

Nobody is saying that a person should try to put the weight of the world on their shoulders by trying to cure every single social ill that is out there. The emphasis is more on a person just doing what they are able to, in the time they have, with the means and ability that they have. Even if people do that, then we'd find that a wide variety of social ills would be dealt with.

Again:

[Kowani]

@Lumi
For what concerns me.
Before your post giving visibility to the tragedy of human trafficking, I posted this:

The youtube channel of the vatican just streamed the audience of the pope with the diplomatic corps.
The speech of the pope to the diplomats was not very different from the his common comments after the angelus prayer, but with more details on the various international issues.

Dubbed in English
Dubbed in Spanish
Dubbed in Portuguese
Dubbed in German
Dubbed in French
Dubbed in Italian
Original sound (opening in french from the ambassador of cyprus, speech of the pope in italian)
Other channels in other languages
(the vietnamese channel seem to be very popular, they don't have the translation up yet, must be because of the timezone difference)

Original stream, with some of the farewells which were cut at the end. (it may be available for around 10 hours)

Which among many topics, also covered that matter. (which had also been previously addressed by the Pope on Feb 7 during the angelus)
So I didn't reply to you, because you were repeating with more detail something I had already given visibility to.

Take some of your spare time, and watch that.


Keep being charming and charitable, and truthful.

fuckit, here we go
This?
This doesn't cover it.
This isn't a defense. It's an excuse.
There are reasons-of varying validity for people to not have responded to what Lumi posted. Tars went over it in his daily life, and didn't see the need to post on here. And that's fine and cool. NS isn't the centre of the universe.
But this? Nah, cha'al. This is you trying to downplay your own behaviour.
"It was covered twice in a vague manner during the Pope's much longer speech about other things" isn't "giving visibility to it"
It's barely addressing it.
Hell, I'm not Christian. I can't exactly pray. I barely know what a "good Christian" is supposed to look like-but I do know what it isn't.
This? This is what it isn't.

And maybe I'm not supposed to say that, I think it's impolite and probably considered out of line.
But that's okay. I got asshole points.
Retreating behind a veil of righteousness and piety when confronted with anything that makes you have to question your whether your own behaviour might not measure up to standard? Yeah, that's pretty ugly. And if I'm being honest, makes it harder for your church to actually grow-much less you as a person.
You mention "being charitable, and truthful".
If a constant reaction to your behaviour is for others to feel uncomfortable-and tell you that they're feeling that way, you should not be the Simpsons meme of "Am I the problem? Nah, it's everyone else that's wrong."
That's not being charitable to others, that's not being truthful to yourself.
It's dishonestly invoking things which you think are good to avoid having to actually examine your actions and thoughts.
Two Christians-Reverend Norv and The Marlborough, both of whom I respect the hell out of have mentioned that they were leaving this space. You'd think that would be a cause for reflection, to see if there was anything the community or you in particular could change about your behaviour. And somehow, just saying "we need to remember these very good principles and ideas" doesn't cut it.
Yet I see none of that.
It's all fine and good to recognize that we, being human and not Christ, are fallible.
It is another thing to act on that realization and try to change ourselves. I thought that was part of Christianity. Being forgiven-and changing as a result. "“Now go and sin no more”, right? God-and the principles of Christianity- isn't something you get to just invoke to cover up your actions.

I don't know. This isn't my space. I'm just an atheist who lurks here because I enjoy learning about theology and history and occasionally drops a news article or asks a question. Nor, for that matter, am I going to preface this with "and this is coming from a place of love." 'Cause it's not, and to claim so would to be dishonest.
But even I can smell rot in the Garden.

[Sundiata]

It can definitely be annoying but I still think it's a good thing anyway. We've at least got the responsibility to pray and do good for people in rough situations. Also, if we have the money, to give to good causes and people in rough situations. A minor inconvenience isn't the worst.

Imagine being minorly inconvenienced by the idea of praying for a 10-year-old girl who is missing, or a 10-day-old infant who was kidnapped from his family, or for a 14-year-old girl who has been missing since 1992. These children are our heritage and our future, God Himself puts before us life and death in Deuteronomy. Choose life, that you and your descendants may live. And choosing life sometimes is just praying for a tiny baby who cannot defend themselves.

I agree with you.

We all just get burned out or annoyed sometimes; it's normal. Sometimes it takes effort to adequately care. It's not your fault why we feel one way or the other. You're doing a good thing though. And again, I appreciate your thoughts, opinions, and concerns.

If you feel offended or hurt I don't mind apologizing.

[Tarsonis]

@Lumi
For what concerns me.
Before your post giving visibility to the tragedy of human trafficking, I posted this:



Which among many topics, also covered that matter. (which had also been previously addressed by the Pope on Feb 7 during the angelus)
So I didn't reply to you, because you were repeating with more detail something I had already given visibility to.

Take some of your spare time, and watch that.


Keep being charming and charitable, and truthful.

fuckit, here we go
This?
This doesn't cover it.
This isn't a defense. It's an excuse.
There are reasons-of varying validity for people to not have responded to what Lumi posted. Tars went over it in his daily life, and didn't see the need to post on here. And that's fine and cool. NS isn't the centre of the universe.
But this? Nah, cha'al. This is you trying to downplay your own behaviour.
"It was covered twice in a vague manner during the Pope's much longer speech about other things" isn't "giving visibility to it"
It's barely addressing it.
Hell, I'm not Christian. I can't exactly pray. I barely know what a "good Christian" is supposed to look like-but I do know what it isn't.
This? This is what it isn't.

And maybe I'm not supposed to say that, I think it's impolite and probably considered out of line.
But that's okay. I got asshole points.
Retreating behind a veil of righteousness and piety when confronted with anything that makes you have to question your whether your own behaviour might not measure up to standard? Yeah, that's pretty ugly. And if I'm being honest, makes it harder for your church to actually grow-much less you as a person.
You mention "being charitable, and truthful".
If a constant reaction to your behaviour is for others to feel uncomfortable-and tell you that they're feeling that way, you should not be the Simpsons meme of "Am I the problem? Nah, it's everyone else that's wrong."
That's not being charitable to others, that's not being truthful to yourself.
It's dishonestly invoking things which you think are good to avoid having to actually examine your actions and thoughts.
Two Christians-Reverend Norv and The Marlborough, both of whom I respect the hell out of have mentioned that they were leaving this space. You'd think that would be a cause for reflection, to see if there was anything the community or you in particular could change about your behaviour. And somehow, just saying "we need to remember these very good principles and ideas" doesn't cut it.
Yet I see none of that.
It's all fine and good to recognize that we, being human and not Christ, are fallible.
It is another thing to act on that realization and try to change ourselves. I thought that was part of Christianity. Being forgiven-and changing as a result. "“Now go and sin no more”, right? God-and the principles of Christianity- isn't something you get to just invoke to cover up your actions.

I don't know. This isn't my space. I'm just an atheist who lurks here because I enjoy learning about theology and history and occasionally drops a news article or asks a question. Nor, for that matter, am I going to preface this with "and this is coming from a place of love." 'Cause it's not, and to claim so would to be dishonest.
But even I can smell rot in the Garden.

I'd just like to point out that much like cooking, anyone can pray.

[Kexholm Karelia]

No offense but I really don’t understand Catholic theology. Why do you guys treat Mary as if she is a deity? Of course she is not as important as God or Jesus, but still. Same with the Saints

Her being less important doesn't make her unimportant.

What in particular did she do other than birthing the son of God?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, I’ve been a protestant all my life

[Salus Maior]

What in particular did she do other than birthing the son of God?

You're acting like that's not something incredible in and of itself.

Also, for the record, Jesus is God. So She literally carried and gave birth to God incarnate.

[Tarsonis]

Her being less important doesn't make her unimportant.

What in particular did she do other than birthing the son of God?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, I’ve been a protestant all my life

You don't think the vessel that brought the redeemer into this world is important?


I don't mean to sound dismissive, but apart from Christ, St. Mary might be the second most important person to ever exist. This young girl, likely not much older than 14 found favor in the eyes of God, and was chosen by Him to bear the most precious life, his son. Obedient and humble St. Mary said yes, bore His son, fed him, clothed him, raised him, walked with him the days of his life and wept at his feet as he died. And it was to she that the angel appeared to announce that he had risen.


I mean, the depth of faith this woman had, surpassing all the apostles, martyrs, and dare I say any Christian who has ever walked the earth. How could she not be venerated?

[Aeritai]

Her being less important doesn't make her unimportant.

What in particular did she do other than birthing the son of God?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, I’ve been a protestant all my life

Considering she was chosen by God himself to give birth to Jesus. She's a pretty important person in the Bible and I'm saying this as someone who is Protestant.

[Salus Maior]

fuckit, here we go
This?
This doesn't cover it.
This isn't a defense. It's an excuse.
There are reasons-of varying validity for people to not have responded to what Lumi posted. Tars went over it in his daily life, and didn't see the need to post on here. And that's fine and cool. NS isn't the centre of the universe.
But this? Nah, cha'al. This is you trying to downplay your own behaviour.
"It was covered twice in a vague manner during the Pope's much longer speech about other things" isn't "giving visibility to it"
It's barely addressing it.
Hell, I'm not Christian. I can't exactly pray. I barely know what a "good Christian" is supposed to look like-but I do know what it isn't.
This? This is what it isn't.

And maybe I'm not supposed to say that, I think it's impolite and probably considered out of line.
But that's okay. I got asshole points.
Retreating behind a veil of righteousness and piety when confronted with anything that makes you have to question your whether your own behaviour might not measure up to standard? Yeah, that's pretty ugly. And if I'm being honest, makes it harder for your church to actually grow-much less you as a person.
You mention "being charitable, and truthful".
If a constant reaction to your behaviour is for others to feel uncomfortable-and tell you that they're feeling that way, you should not be the Simpsons meme of "Am I the problem? Nah, it's everyone else that's wrong."
That's not being charitable to others, that's not being truthful to yourself.
It's dishonestly invoking things which you think are good to avoid having to actually examine your actions and thoughts.
Two Christians-Reverend Norv and The Marlborough, both of whom I respect the hell out of have mentioned that they were leaving this space. You'd think that would be a cause for reflection, to see if there was anything the community or you in particular could change about your behaviour. And somehow, just saying "we need to remember these very good principles and ideas" doesn't cut it.
Yet I see none of that.
It's all fine and good to recognize that we, being human and not Christ, are fallible.
It is another thing to act on that realization and try to change ourselves. I thought that was part of Christianity. Being forgiven-and changing as a result. "“Now go and sin no more”, right? God-and the principles of Christianity- isn't something you get to just invoke to cover up your actions.

I don't know. This isn't my space. I'm just an atheist who lurks here because I enjoy learning about theology and history and occasionally drops a news article or asks a question. Nor, for that matter, am I going to preface this with "and this is coming from a place of love." 'Cause it's not, and to claim so would to be dishonest.
But even I can smell rot in the Garden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDnSQnh3Les

[Punished UMN]

Her being less important doesn't make her unimportant.

What in particular did she do other than birthing the son of God?

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, I’ve been a protestant all my life

"Okay, but other than being the key to God's plan to redeem creation, what did she do?"

[Luminesa]

Imagine being minorly inconvenienced by the idea of praying for a 10-year-old girl who is missing, or a 10-day-old infant who was kidnapped from his family, or for a 14-year-old girl who has been missing since 1992. These children are our heritage and our future, God Himself puts before us life and death in Deuteronomy. Choose life, that you and your descendants may live. And choosing life sometimes is just praying for a tiny baby who cannot defend themselves.

I agree with you.

We all just get burned out or annoyed sometimes; it's normal. Sometimes it takes effort to adequately care. It's not your fault why we feel one way or the other. You're doing a good thing though. And again, I appreciate your thoughts, opinions, and concerns.

If you feel offended or hurt I don't mind apologizing.

I'm not offended for my sake. I'm offended for these children. Please, just keep them in your prayers. Spread these posters around. Christ asks us to do works of mercy, this is a work of mercy.