Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Sundiata]

Things come, things go, God stays. I sincerely believe that if you praise him he'll never let you down. In my most casual of moments I try to remember him. He is the maker of all things beautiful, all things sacred. When the devil is in full swing, I can't help but question what will come for the devoted. God stays. When there's no other place to hold your head, God stays.

Neat.

Yeah, I am rambling on a bit but I definitely believe that God's love is different from circumstantial familiarity. That's definitely the love that people experience most of the time. For example, you're part of a group or community. People in the community have a bias in your favor because you belong to that community. Unfortunately though, whether they're your friend, romantic partner, or family member, they pass away or feelings change. God doesn't change. God doesn't pass away.

And ultimately, it's God who we're made to love above all else. To love a person as a friend, family, or partner is to be vulnerable. But at the end of the day, there is also no safe house on this earth. God, however, will never turn you away. We're asked to love the father through the son. To love the son through the mother (Our Lady). That's our mission.

[Sundiata]

There's a lot that can be said about Our Lady, God the Son, God the Father, the Holy Spirit too.

Three of these are aspects of God. The other, is sort of a means of getting to God. Or more specifically, a person who takes us to God. Our Lady prays for us and serves as an example. God the Son is loving. He's the aspect of God that's like a warm hug in metaphorical terms. God the Father is the toughest part of the Holy Trinity for me to understand. I sort of think it's the sterner aspect of God that reminds of our obligations. The Holy Spirit, is the part of God that acts through people and allows them to do great good.

If anyone wants to give a better run-down of God the Father, please do.

[The Marlborough]

Trollzyn the Infinite you might also want to see if the nearest parish is hosting their services online; many are doing this as a result of the pandemic. It's not the same as attending in person of course but could help you get some idea as to what the services are like. Also a good idea to contact a priest and see what they recommend for those who do no live close to a parish.

While I would never say you shouldn't join this or that church in North America, I will say I have...many reservations about ROCOR. They have a very, very bad problem with accepting extremists into their fold and not doing a lot to try and stamp it out. Some of them they have dealt with but there are still quite a number around that they should be addressing. The OCA and Antiochians have been much better at weeding them out, either by getting them to change their ways or excommunicating them.

[The Archregimancy]

Patriarch Irinej of Serbia, head of the Serbian Orthodox Church, has died of COVID-19 two weeks after being diagnosed with the illness.

Unfortunately, it looks likely that the 90-year-old patriarch caught coronavirus while officiating at the funeral of Bishop Amfilohije, the Serbian church's most senior hierarch in neighbouring Montenegro (where, also unfortunately, the church is divided between parishes following Belgrade and the smaller number of parishes [c.30%] following the self-declared and unrecognised Montenegrin Orthodox Church).

Thousands of mourners had gathered at the event without masks or maintaining social distancing. Many of those present kissed the bishop's body as it lay in an open casket. Bishop Amfilohije had himself defied Covid regulations on public gatherings in Montenegro.

His public funeral went ahead amid a major spike in coronavirus cases in Montenegro and Serbia, and despite a warning from the authorities that the ceremony posed a risk to public health.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55013132

So, sadly, this seems to have been entirely avoidable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54823860

For the Orthodox: Archbishop Ieronymos, 82, has been admitted to a hospital after testing positive for COVID.

His symptoms remain mild as of now.

The prayers and support are no doubt welcome, but seem to have been directed towards the wrong leader of a Balkan autocephalous church (slightly confusingly for outsiders, the Church of Greece headquartered in Athens is separate from the Ecumenical Patriarchate headquartered in Constantinople/Istanbul).

[The Archregimancy]

While I would never say you shouldn't join this or that church in North America, I will say I have...many reservations about ROCOR. They have a very, very bad problem with accepting extremists into their fold and not doing a lot to try and stamp it out. Some of them they have dealt with but there are still quite a number around that they should be addressing. The OCA and Antiochians have been much better at weeding them out, either by getting them to change their ways or excommunicating them.

Your thinking here is very similar to mine. I wouldn't rule out ROCOR to an honest inquirer into Orthodoxy - they are a fully canonical branch of the Orthodox Church again since the reunion with Moscow - but it's important for anyone looking at a ROCOR parish that they're among the most conservative of jurisdictions, both in terms of their theology and their traditions. And yes, unfortunately some ROCOR members do cross the boundary between conservatism and extremism.

I would likewise recommend the OCA and Antiochians as the first point of call for a North American casually interested in Orthodoxy, as per my longer post (though perhaps avoiding the small number of Western Rite Antiochian parishes in the first instance; there's nothing wrong with them canonically or theologically, but they're not really representative, either). At the same time, the Greek archdiocese is become better about reaching out to non-Greeks, and there are growing number of North American parishes under Constantinople that take a less ethnic and more pan-Orthodox approach. So I wouldn't rule Greek parishes out, especially if there are few or no alternatives in the area. Often a quick look at their website (assuming they have one) is enough to see whether they're narrowly ethnic or not. Most of the other jurisdictions tend to be ethnic in focus; but you never know - they can take on a more pan-Orthodox perspective, depending on their specific context (especially if there are no other local parishes).

[Luminesa]

Patriarch Irinej of Serbia, head of the Serbian Orthodox Church, has died of COVID-19 two weeks after being diagnosed with the illness.

Unfortunately, it looks likely that the 90-year-old patriarch caught coronavirus while officiating at the funeral of Bishop Amfilohije, the Serbian church's most senior hierarch in neighbouring Montenegro (where, also unfortunately, the church is divided between parishes following Belgrade and the smaller number of parishes [c.30%] following the self-declared and unrecognised Montenegrin Orthodox Church).

Thousands of mourners had gathered at the event without masks or maintaining social distancing. Many of those present kissed the bishop's body as it lay in an open casket. Bishop Amfilohije had himself defied Covid regulations on public gatherings in Montenegro.

His public funeral went ahead amid a major spike in coronavirus cases in Montenegro and Serbia, and despite a warning from the authorities that the ceremony posed a risk to public health.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55013132

So, sadly, this seems to have been entirely avoidable.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54823860

For the Orthodox: Archbishop Ieronymos, 82, has been admitted to a hospital after testing positive for COVID.

His symptoms remain mild as of now.

The prayers and support are no doubt welcome, but seem to have been directed towards the wrong leader of a Balkan autocephalous church (slightly confusingly for outsiders, the Church of Greece headquartered in Athens is separate from the Ecumenical Patriarchate headquartered in Constantinople/Istanbul).

This is quite saddening. Very avoidable death, but at the same time he was an elderly patriarch and I suppose he wanted to perform his job as long as he could, though maybe a mask would have protected him a little. Anyway, I hope he is no longer in pain. May he go to God and rest in Jesus’s arms.

[Lost Memories]

One uplifting news, and an other, more somber.

Vietnam - Last resting place for clergymen transformed by Vietnam Catholics

Neglected cemetery in Ho Chi Minh City has become a colorful park attracting the faithful

Alexis Tran Van Anh, who has worked at the cemetery in Ho Chi Minh City for seven years, said many people including motorbike taxi drivers volunteer to repair the cemetery’s electric and water systems, offer new flowers, bonsai trees, natural fertilizer and even financial support.
Father Clement Le Minh Trung, pastor of Chi Hoa Parish, and some 100 people gather to pray rosaries on Monday evenings at the cemetery — the final resting place to some 200 priests and bishops, including foreign missionaries, who served Ho Chi Minh City Archdiocese. The oldest grave dates back to 1908 and the latest 1983.

Anh said the 4,500-square-meter graveyard next to Chi Hoa Church was previously not looked after properly. Wild weeds and plants covered graves, residents walked on them and threw garbage, and drug abusers left syringes there at night. Local Catholics only cleaned it during lunar new year and November, the month dedicated to all souls.
Father Trung called on Catholics to decorate graves and clean the cemetery every week after he was assigned to the parish in 2013.

Teresa Nguyen Thi Lien, head of a group of Catholics who share God’s Word based at the parish, said 10 members sweep walkways in the burial ground and remove old flowers and incense from the graves on Monday mornings after they finish their daily Eucharist adoration at the church.
“Other graveyards are characterized by coldness and death but this one is full of life and good feelings thanks to our work,” she said.

The graves remind people to respect the gift of life granted by God, living a good life and serving other people so that they can be in heaven after death. The necropolis decorated by flowers and plants and electric lamps at night is a sacred place for local people.
“We believe that our ancestors in heaven are happy to see us show our gratitude to them by cleaning their graves,” Lien, 72, said. “And God is pleased to see his children love and pray for one another.”

China - Does China really need more bishops?

Among the many challenges that the Church in China is facing, there is one that we need to spell out. Unlike the rest of the world where local communities can be served by both, secular and regular clergy, the Chinese Church is supposedly unidimensional. Due to political constraints, the Church is only made of dioceses.
Transregional as well as transnational religious orders are forbidden. Unlike in Paris, Nairobi or Buenos Aires where a single street can host a Dominican convent, a Franciscan chapel and a diocesan parish, Chinese streets cannot. Only parishes administrated by their diocese are allowed.

This undue political restriction may seem acceptable to some church leaders who look down upon the contribution of religious life.
I have heard a well-educated Chinese priest telling me that the Church does not need monks since “we all know how to pray”. Others may use Vatican II to claim that bishops and their dioceses are the fundamental backbone of the Church. But this unidimensional ecclesiology fails to embrace the variety of Catholic needs and sensibilities.

Unlike elsewhere in the world where the Church is irrigated by two kinds of ecclesial institutions, local dioceses and transregional religious orders, the Church in China is forced to hop on one foot. Of course, underground networks of national religious orders exist. But their impact is limited. Thus, the necessary diversity of the Church tends to be institutionalized through an unhealthy opposition between “patriotic” and “underground” communities while traditional resources are left behind.

It is this challenge that we need to face. The lack of religious orders, especially male religious orders, is concerning in many countries. It is not good for the Church to structure itself as a territorial administration only. But in China the problem is worse and observers turn blind eyes. While the number of bishops is important, we should worry about the absence of transregional religious orders. Without them, the Body of Christ cannot deploy its diversity and deepen its spiritual roots. Without birds on its trees, a forest cannot really sing the glory of God. And it is this absence — unnoticed by most social scientists and journalists — that Catholics need to question.

[Norastan]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

[Lord Dominator]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

Dunno about Europe, but here in America the 'left' is majority Christian

[Albrenia]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

A fine strawman you have there.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

That's nice, dear.

[Black Hetmanate]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

It's ironic as the West would likely become more Christian if it went full Muslim.

[Sundiata]

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called my name.
You put the idea in my mind
To be a good man.
You placed a crown upon my head.
There is joy.

You know the words to my songs.
You know the noise.
You gave me a robe.
You gave me a ring.
There is joy.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called me son.
You gave me shoes.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You gave me a home.
You let me rest.
You designed me.
You designed my ways.
There is joy.

[Tarsonis]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

Dunno about Europe, but here in America the 'left' is majority Christian

Yes but that's actually why this happens.

[Salus Maior]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

Dunno about Europe, but here in America the 'left' is majority Christian

What exactly are we defining as the "left" here?

[Sundiata]

Dunno about Europe, but here in America the 'left' is majority Christian

What exactly are we defining as the "left" here?

The Democratic Party, I think.

[Salus Maior]

What exactly are we defining as the "left" here?

The Democratic Party, I think.

About as sincerely Christian as the Republican Party, I'd say.

[Xmara]

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called my name.
You put the idea in my mind
To be a good man.
You placed a crown upon my head.
There is joy.

You know the words to my songs.
You know the noise.
You gave me a robe.
You gave me a ring.
There is joy.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called me son.
You gave me shoes.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You gave me a home.
You let me rest.
You designed me.
You designed my ways.
There is joy.

Is this from a song or poem, or is this something you wrote? It's quite lovely.

[Kowani]

The Democratic Party, I think.

About as sincerely Christian as the Republican Party, I'd say.

Neither Christian nor left, truly sad

[Sundiata]

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called my name.
You put the idea in my mind
To be a good man.
You placed a crown upon my head.
There is joy.

You know the words to my songs.
You know the noise.
You gave me a robe.
You gave me a ring.
There is joy.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You called me son.
You gave me shoes.

You always knew me in the arms of my mother.
You gave me a home.
You let me rest.
You designed me.
You designed my ways.
There is joy.

Is this from a song or poem, or is this something you wrote? It's quite lovely.

It's just something I wrote as an exercise, thank you.

[Lord Dominator]

What exactly are we defining as the "left" here?

The Democratic Party, I think.

More or less, plus the independents farther to the left or the independents more towards the middle.

Either way, the figure is something like 65% of people who say they're Democrats also say they're Christian (for Republicans it's about 75% or so).

[New Visayan Islands]

Friendly reminder that November 22nd is Sollemnitas DNIC Universorum Regis under the current General Roman Calendar.

¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Random person: *criticizes Christianity*

The left: YES, great criticism, attack Christianity

Another random person: *criticizes Islam*

The left: STFU ISLAMOPHOBIC RACIST TRUMP-SUPPORTING NAZI

It's ironic as the West would likely become more Christian if it went full Muslim.

...

wat

[Tarsonis]

It's ironic as the West would likely become more Christian if it went full Muslim.

...

wat

*deus vult intensifies*

[Adamede]

It's ironic as the West would likely become more Christian if it went full Muslim.

...

wat

I think he means if somehow the Muslims came to dominate the West Western culture would become far more Christian fundamentalist as a backlash.