NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
159
41%
Eastern Orthodox
24
6%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
1
0%
Anglican/Episcopalian
23
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
44
11%
Methodist
8
2%
Baptist
39
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
29
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
15
4%
Other Christian
50
13%
 
Total votes : 392

User avatar
Auristania
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1070
Founded: Aug 12, 2016
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:08 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a sin to lie to my grandmother with dimentia? We have to lie to her all the time for her own good. For example, when she goes to day care, we have to lie to her and tell she's going to work. Because of her domentia, she thinks she's going to work, and she won't go if we tell her otherwise. Is that a sin?


Anne Frank: the Police ask "Are there any Jews hiding in your attic?" Augustine and Kant assert that lying is a bigger sin than murder. All sane people assert that murder is a bigger sin than lying.

Your example offers small lie versus medium harm, therefore the lie is righteous. I assert that in a situation of HUGE lie causes small harm then Truth is righteous.

9th Commandment: thou shalt not bear false witness: if you testify that an innocent did a crime worth 10 years jail, that is a Huge sin; if you testify that the innocent did a crime worth 10 dollar fine, that is a small sin.

User avatar
Maineiacs
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6901
Founded: May 26, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Maineiacs » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:09 pm

Luminesa wrote:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I23aEVCtzHs

For anyone seeking to do Adoration, but who is unable to attend a church, St. Benedict’s in Melbourne, Australia is offering Perpetual Adoration live from YouTube. Now you can worship Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament from your own home.

If you’ve never done Adoration before, it’s very relaxing and really opens the heart to God. Just sit in silence, or talk to God about your day, or even write your prayers in a journal. Just spend some time with Jesus.

If this link stops, I’ll happily find another Perpetual Adoration link. God bless! :)



Here's another one: it's from Our Lady of Guadalupe of The Blessed Sacrament in Doral, Florida.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PclfcyzZ5q8
Last edited by Maineiacs on Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Economic:-8.12 Social:-7.59 Moral Rules:5 Moral Order:-5
Muravyets: Maineiacs, you are brilliant, too! I stand in delighted awe.
Sane Outcasts:When your best case scenario is five kilometers of nuclear contamination, you know someone fucked up.
Geniasis: Christian values are incompatible with Conservative ideals. I cannot both follow the teachings of Christ and be a Republican. Therefore, I choose to not be a Republican.
Galloism: If someone will build a wall around Donald Trump, I'll pay for it.
Bottle tells it like it is
add 6,928 to post count

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20948
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:28 pm

Auristania wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a sin to lie to my grandmother with dimentia? We have to lie to her all the time for her own good. For example, when she goes to day care, we have to lie to her and tell she's going to work. Because of her domentia, she thinks she's going to work, and she won't go if we tell her otherwise. Is that a sin?


Anne Frank: the Police ask "Are there any Jews hiding in your attic?" Augustine and Kant assert that lying is a bigger sin than murder. All sane people assert that murder is a bigger sin than lying.

Your example offers small lie versus medium harm, therefore the lie is righteous. I assert that in a situation of HUGE lie causes small harm then Truth is righteous.

9th Commandment: thou shalt not bear false witness: if you testify that an innocent did a crime worth 10 years jail, that is a Huge sin; if you testify that the innocent did a crime worth 10 dollar fine, that is a small sin.

Cheers
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20948
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a sin to lie to my grandmother with dimentia? We have to lie to her all the time for her own good. For example, when she goes to day care, we have to lie to her and tell she's going to work. Because of her domentia, she thinks she's going to work, and she won't go if we tell her otherwise. Is that a sin?

As Arch said, a priest probably would be best to answer this question. However, personally, I have lived with grandparents who suffered with dementia and Alzheimer's for many years. It's a vicious, fickle beast, as I'm sure you probably know. I don't think it's a sin. Your intention is to give her care, which is already a corporeal work of mercy, caring for the sick and infirm. You have to live on her level, and so it would not be a sin. There's little you can do about these sorts of delusions or lapses without medicine, which really only slows the progress of the dementia. In your case, you're doing all you can to keep her comfortable. :hug: :hug:

cheers
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55386
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:56 am

Auristania wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a sin to lie to my grandmother with dimentia? We have to lie to her all the time for her own good. For example, when she goes to day care, we have to lie to her and tell she's going to work. Because of her domentia, she thinks she's going to work, and she won't go if we tell her otherwise. Is that a sin?


Anne Frank: the Police ask "Are there any Jews hiding in your attic?" Augustine and Kant assert that lying is a bigger sin than murder. All sane people assert that murder is a bigger sin than lying.

Your example offers small lie versus medium harm, therefore the lie is righteous. I assert that in a situation of HUGE lie causes small harm then Truth is righteous.

9th Commandment: thou shalt not bear false witness: if you testify that an innocent did a crime worth 10 years jail, that is a Huge sin; if you testify that the innocent did a crime worth 10 dollar fine, that is a small sin.

I know that you don’t intend it that way, but I don’t think St. Augustine would have been upset with the people protecting Anne Frank and her family for saying, “No there are no Jews here.”
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:45 am

Luminesa wrote:
Auristania wrote:
Anne Frank: the Police ask "Are there any Jews hiding in your attic?" Augustine and Kant assert that lying is a bigger sin than murder. All sane people assert that murder is a bigger sin than lying.

Your example offers small lie versus medium harm, therefore the lie is righteous. I assert that in a situation of HUGE lie causes small harm then Truth is righteous.

9th Commandment: thou shalt not bear false witness: if you testify that an innocent did a crime worth 10 years jail, that is a Huge sin; if you testify that the innocent did a crime worth 10 dollar fine, that is a small sin.

I know that you don’t intend it that way, but I don’t think St. Augustine would have been upset with the people protecting Anne Frank and her family for saying, “No there are no Jews here.”


The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 24875
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:16 am

Tarsonis wrote:
The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.


I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.

User avatar
Atheris
Minister
 
Posts: 2566
Founded: Oct 05, 2018
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Atheris » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:18 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.


I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.

Homer Simpson was a Norwegian lumberjack!
Kannap wrote:It is I, the stranger in the night who cuts the power lines with hedge clippers
Ceranapis wrote:"Who needs a country when you can write Ace Attorney fan fiction?"
ema skye is the best AA character i love her so much
Nouveau Quebecois did nothing wrong!
The self-proclaimed Resident Shitposter of NSG.
Ace/aro. Cis he/him. Trans ally. ADHD, autistic-like brain.
"To comment is human, to preview, divine." - Godot
Orthodox Preterist Lutheran Christian.
I write AA fanfiction. Fuck you if you judge me.
WA RP nation: Union of Sovereign States and Republics

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12473
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:53 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.


I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.


Malicious intent means more to deceive unjustly. Like I know you're joking, so it's not really a lie. It's the same with actors, and fiction authors. We know what they're saying is false to begin with, so it's not considered a deception.

In the case of anne frank, you're being deceptive but you're not doing it to cause harm or undermine someone, you're trying to protect the life, I believe the Church would consider that acceptable.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:59 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.


I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.


Well, even if you weren't lying that would still be boastful to say, which is sinful in its own right,
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Australian rePublic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 20948
Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Australian rePublic » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:36 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
The Church has taught that lying is a sin only in so much that if you do it with malicious intent. Lying to protect life wouldn't qualify.


I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.

Are you sure Arch? I'd have an easier time believing that you have the body of an athlete, than I would believing that there was no malice in that post :p

Tarsonis wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.


Malicious intent means more to deceive unjustly. Like I know you're joking, so it's not really a lie. It's the same with actors, and fiction authors. We know what they're saying is false to begin with, so it's not considered a deception.

In the case of anne frank, you're being deceptive but you're not doing it to cause harm or undermine someone, you're trying to protect the life, I believe the Church would consider that acceptable.

Cinsidering that there's apparently humour in the Bible itself, including at least one instance of something which is probably meant to qualify as toilet humour (don't quote me on that) I'm pretty sure jokes are fine. And as for fiction, all of Jesus' parables were fiction, and He was sinless. I know that it's not the same to equate a movie about, I don't know, a car chase with a parable, but still, I'm pretty sure that fiction is fine. I mean, I don't think that God wants us to have a joyless existence
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
From Greek Ansestry Orthodox Christian
17 Published Issues and 1 WA Resolution List of NPC Nations
This account is fictious. Any In-Character posts made by this account do not reflect the actions of any real world government

User avatar
Sundiata
Minister
 
Posts: 2939
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:05 am

I've prayed many times today, I need Christ now.

EDIT: please pray for me and others.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Gender: Male
Religion: Catholic (Opus Dei)
Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
Economics: Rerum Novarum (The Encyclical)
Alignment: Lawful Good

"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva (Founder of Opus Dei)

User avatar
Salus Maior
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:09 am

Guys, please pray for me and my family. My gram just unexpectedly passed away.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. -1 Timothy 1:15

“My entire endeavor has always been to clearly recognize the Will of God in all things and to follow it as completely as possible.” -Blessed Charles of Austria, last Habsburg Emperor

User avatar
Sundiata
Minister
 
Posts: 2939
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Sundiata » Thu Aug 06, 2020 11:21 am

Salus Maior wrote:Guys, please pray for me and my family. My gram just unexpectedly passed away.

Will do!
Gender: Male
Religion: Catholic (Opus Dei)
Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
Economics: Rerum Novarum (The Encyclical)
Alignment: Lawful Good

"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva (Founder of Opus Dei)

User avatar
Rosmana
Envoy
 
Posts: 279
Founded: Apr 08, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rosmana » Fri Aug 07, 2020 7:53 am

Salus Maior wrote:Guys, please pray for me and my family. My gram just unexpectedly passed away.

I will.
"We need to consecrate our souls through grace in order to reach the kingdom of God"

User avatar
Nemohsis
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 101
Founded: Apr 25, 2020
New York Times Democracy

Postby Nemohsis » Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:04 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Is it a sin to lie to my grandmother with dimentia? We have to lie to her all the time for her own good. For example, when she goes to day care, we have to lie to her and tell she's going to work. Because of her domentia, she thinks she's going to work, and she won't go if we tell her otherwise. Is that a sin?


I think Bonhoeffer's view- or what I understand of it- would be helpful in this situation. It is not enough to try to be perfect as God as perfect. We can't be perfect as God is perfect. The Bible shows that we need the work of God, and through the Holy Spirit we might begin to understand the glory of God. For me, I cannot even trust myself to completely understand what the laws demand. Jesus showed that it was not enough to follow what seemed like the letter of the law- to not commit adultery- but one has to understand the intentions of God and the condemnation of lust as well. So, simply trying to follow the letter of the law is not only impossible, but also could lead us into sin as Romans points out, where we could feel as if we have justified ourselves. In all actions, we fall short of the God's standard. I can only do what I feel guided by the Spirit, and it should align with the commands of God. I would not be concerned about whether it is sin as much as what God would desire for you and your family to do. What did Jesus say was His commands, fufilling the end of the Law? In Mark: 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
Pray.
Last edited by Nemohsis on Fri Aug 07, 2020 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55386
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:36 am

Atheris wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
I have the body of a 20-year old Olympian, and a face that merges the best features of a devilishly handsome Italian and a coolly aloof attractive Swede.


I promise you that there was absolutely no malicious intent in this post.

Homer Simpson was a Norwegian lumberjack!

Honestly that explains a lot about Homer. :lol:
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55386
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sun Aug 09, 2020 6:36 am

Salus Maior wrote:Guys, please pray for me and my family. My gram just unexpectedly passed away.

:hug: Absolutely.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

User avatar
Sundiata
Minister
 
Posts: 2939
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Prayer Request

Postby Sundiata » Mon Aug 10, 2020 10:59 pm

Please pray for my academic success.
Gender: Male
Religion: Catholic (Opus Dei)
Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
Economics: Rerum Novarum (The Encyclical)
Alignment: Lawful Good

"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva (Founder of Opus Dei)

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 24875
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:27 am

Ladies, Gents, and Non-Binary Posters, this is always a very difficult thing to write given where my sympathies lie, but could we please try and take care not to turn this into a prayer request thread.

I'll likely always turn a sympathetic blind eye towards anyone suffering a bereavement, but prayer requests for more everyday activities could risk putting this thread into a tight spot given some of the recent discussions and actions relating to the future of NSG discussion threads.

Please try and keep the thread focused on discussion of Christianity; which also means that it can't be a thread specifically for Christians.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Lost Memories
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1472
Founded: Nov 29, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:15 am

The Archregimancy wrote:....given some of the recent discussions and actions relating to the future of NSG discussion threads.

I'm out of the loop, what were those recent "discussions and actions" about?
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when i doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55841
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Tue Aug 11, 2020 4:20 am

Lost Memories wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:....given some of the recent discussions and actions relating to the future of NSG discussion threads.

I'm out of the loop, what were those recent "discussions and actions" about?


viewtopic.php?f=16&t=487460
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Heaven is other people
Behind the invisible hand of the market hides the iron fist of the state.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect - Mark Twain
Silent is an anagram of listen.
Male. Please address me as 'he'.
Blaat - all fluff, all action
This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
Lost Memories
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1472
Founded: Nov 29, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Tue Aug 11, 2020 5:26 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Once when discussing with some other Orthodox Christians about why God would allow something like the Holocaust to happen, one of them suggested that the Holocaust brought people toward. I find this hard to believe. Disregarding the people who were turned away from God because of the Holocaust, am I supposed to believe that God would allow someone to exist who would orchastrate something as horrific as the Holocaust just for a bit of validation? What do you guys think?

Personally i find the obsession with the great evil of the holocaust a curious obsession of our time, as it is telling of the people we are in the current age.

If people some centuries ago had had the modern technological level and administrative organization of a modern state, as the ones nazi germany had (and other nations of the same time also had), it wouldn't be so unlikely for something similar or worse than the holocaust (by the cynical number of victims) to have happened way before.
Given the premise of a developed tech level and organized state level, all it took was a cultural and moral degradation to put said tecnology and organization to terrible use, for what was essentially the removal of the value of human life, since the whole setup of the holocaust does eerily resemble the one of the slaughterhouses of the animal food industry, just used on humans instead.
And most don't really get outraged by the meat slaughterhouses, as those produce food, and the animals from which the meat comes are food too, just yet to process. I think what was most scandalizing about the recent holocaust, was for people to discover they could as easily be the animals, it made people feel vulnerable, perhaps after they had got too used to the idea to be somehow immune to the tribalistic/sectarian dangers.

That to say, the holocaust wasn't the first time, nor an exception in history, for people to designate a whole other group to be not worthy of be treated humanly.
At the hellenic and roman times, and before them, there was hardly any concept of the sanctivity of life, as most (christians or not) sort of understand it today. (even if there are still attempts going on to move back again, and the sanctivity of life is hardly a solidly established concept, it gets violated all over)

Even without getting so far back, the thirty year war, was sort of comparable in scale to what the world wars did in europe.
But since that's "far enough" in time, as to have little actual surviving living-memory of it, that's just a bland historical fact (a stereotipized one at that), and not "the most evil thing to ever happen" like the holocaust.


As always with any question about "why god allows that", i stick with the view that shit happens because we are given great freedom from God, and that great freedom is something valuable and precious, which allows to do good things, and that's why God gives freedom to humans, do to good things. We are no puppets, and as such we have our own responsibilities when we cause shit.
To be a bit more specific, the holocaust did happen because people at the time got once again away from God. As it shows in the forgetfulness that every person is the child of God.





Thanks Blaat, i'll give it a read.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when i doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 55386
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:49 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Once when discussing with some other Orthodox Christians about why God would allow something like the Holocaust to happen, one of them suggested that the Holocaust brought people toward. I find this hard to believe. Disregarding the people who were turned away from God because of the Holocaust, am I supposed to believe that God would allow someone to exist who would orchastrate something as horrific as the Holocaust just for a bit of validation? What do you guys think?

The Holocaust is a difficult thing for anyone to wrap their minds around. Even with the facts and photos we have, the sheer number of things we don't know-peoples' names, peoples' fates, their remains-just makes it a uniquely haunting, horrifying series of events. One that we do not want to repeat but sadly has been repeated on smaller levels (Rwanda, the Armenian Genocide, some of the other wars in Africa, what is happening to the Urghyrs, etc.)

God does allow some horrific things to happen, even things like the Holocaust, but He also allows things like the liberation of those prisoners from those horrible camps. He wants us to choose good, to choose love, but unfortunately some people are possessed by a spirit of thorough hatred, like Hitler, Gobbels, and Himmler. He wants us to be the good that demonstrates His love to the world, not that He cannot do it without us.

God's glory and validation comes primarily from His sheer existence. He is the First Good, the Creator of All Good, and the Mover of All Good. Therefore, God is always glorified, and His glory can never be diminished. I disagree with the idea that the Holocaust "brought people forward", because if anything it revealed some of the deepest depths of human depravity and hatred, on a scale that we as humans had never before seen. However, it did bring people to recognize and stand against a wicked evil. That recognition, that right judgment against things like the Holocaust, comes from the Spirit, and the Spirit is God. Therefore, God can work even in the midst of what seems like impossible evil, as grace is always stronger than sin and death. It is in that understanding then, that knowledge that God is above evil and has conquered sin and death on the Cross, and that He rose to show He is God over life and death, that validates God. That's why committing sin does not glorify God, but the grace that comes from knowing that God can conquer any sin does glorify God. Does that explain it better?
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

User avatar
Lost Memories
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1472
Founded: Nov 29, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Tue Aug 11, 2020 1:33 pm

Talking about god and temples.

Last week during mass it just so happened the old testament lecture did go over that part.
The lecture was 1 Kings 8:15-30, in it Solomon was giving a prayer after the completion of the building of the temple of Jerusalem, in the latter part of the lecture Solomon did frame the relation between god, humans, and temples, in a nice way i think.
Solomon did in fact question how God can't possibly be contained inside a mere eartly building, but he moreso highlights the temple as the privileged place where people ask the attention of God, and where God fulfills that desire to be looked at by God.


1 Kings 8:15-30
15 Then he said:
“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, who with his own hand has fulfilled what he promised with his own mouth to my father David. For he said, 16 ‘Since the day I brought my people Israel out of Egypt, I have not chosen a city in any tribe of Israel to have a temple built so that my Name might be there, but I have chosen David to rule my people, Israel.’

17 “My father David had it in his heart to build a temple for the Name of the Lord, the God of Israel. 18 But the Lord said to my father David, ‘You did well to have it in your heart to build a temple for my Name. 19 Nevertheless, you are not the one to build the temple, but your son, your own flesh and blood—he is the one who will build the temple for my Name.’

20 “The Lord has kept the promise he made: I have succeeded David my father and now I sit on the throne of Israel, just as the Lord promised, and I have built the temple for the Name of the Lord, the God of Israel. 21 I have provided a place there for the ark, in which is the covenant of the Lord that he made with our ancestors when he brought them out of Egypt.”

27 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! 28 Yet give attention to your servant’s prayer and his plea for mercy, Lord my God. Hear the cry and the prayer that your servant is praying in your presence this day. 29 May your eyes be open toward this temple night and day, this place of which you said, ‘My Name shall be there,’ so that you will hear the prayer your servant prays toward this place. 30 Hear the supplication of your servant and of your people Israel when they pray toward this place. Hear from heaven, your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.


In that passage it was David's desire to build a temple for God, God had different plans, but God still played along with the human desire to build nice looking temples, and to show praise in some concrete way.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

ag

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when i doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cannot think of a name, Dumb Ideologies, Herzosag, Kowani, Nanatsu no Tsuki, Nobel Hobos 2, Sail Nation, Senkaku, Sylh Alanor, The New California Republic, Various Excuses, Vistulange

Advertisement

Remove ads