Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[SimTropican]

This is the Eleventh version of the Christian discussion thread, where participants can discuss Christianity in general, the differences between the denominations, general comparative theology (both within and without Christianity), Church history, and many other topics.

While discussion naturally covers a broad range of themes, members of the moderation team (including those participating in the thread), may occasionally gently suggest that some topics might be best taken to a separate thread; this will usually only occur when a subject is itself the subject of discussion in recurring separate NSG threads and would risk dominating this thread if discussed here (examples include, but are not limited to, abortion, homosexuality, the existence of the historical Jesus and/or the existence of God.)


Note: This is a place for Good faith discussion between those wishing to learn and discover. It is not a place to tilt at the religious members of NSG.

Link to Part 10: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=445882

Fantastic to see Christianity again present on NS via this Thread!

First off there are some errors with the poll you put, while informative there are things I would recommend changing for any updated poll here or another forum. First, Lutheranism and Reformed/Calvinism etc are very different theologically despite some similarities. Some of the big differences is while Calvinists believe communion is only a sign of remembrance and nothing more Lutherans believe in the very real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and as the actual body and blood of Christ in consubstantiation. This belief is similar to how Christ is both fully divine, and fully man so the host is both bread and wine AND body and blood (Catholics and Orthodox believe in Transubstantiation just for reference). Another big difference is the way of entering the faith where Lutherans believe in the baptism as necessary to entering salvation as a gift and not a work, while Calvinists see it as only a public sign. There are a lot of differences beyond this but I would recommend putting them as different answers in the future.

Source: LCMS (about page with the Lutheran beliefs throughout the broader Lutheran confession)
https://www.lcms.org/about/beliefs
Source: Reformed/Calvinist info page
https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/r ... t-reformed

Second you put LDS and Jehovah's witnesses on there and they're not Christian and are considered pagan by Christians since they reject the divinity of Christ, or other core doctrine to Christianity that Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants agree on and believe. While they use a lot of similar themes and names, the LDS believe Christ is created being along with The Enemy as his broth which is one major contradiction, they also believe that they become divine beings which is another conterdiction with the cores of Christianity, among other pagan beliefs. Jehovah's witnesses also have a lot of strange beliefs that reject Christ as being fully divine, they reject the Trinity where Christ is one person of the trinity but all three are One God among other things.

God's blessings be with ya'll during this Easter season!

[United Muscovite Nations]

No one has repented everything, does no one reach heaven? Moreover, righteous anger is not sinful, nor is it hatred. God did not hate when he drove the money changers out of the temple.

You need to draw a clear line between hatred and anger and use it consistently. Because so far you've used the term interchangeably.

Have I used hatred previously in the discussion? Not forgiving someone is not necessarily hatred.

[Atlacatl Batallion]

"Your friend who was raped will go to hell because she didn't forgive the guy who raped her for a decade."
"WHAT?! I'M BEING PERSONALLY ATTACKED? HOW DID THIS HAPPEN????!!!!!!"

Did Christ teach us to hate our enemies?

No, but you are conflating several things at once that, for a layman, would be kind of preposterous to think about and differentiate.

Whereas God asks us to forgive, no matter the other person's faults, a lot of people take "forgiveness" as a lack of judging. Not judging is not what God told us to do either. He, instead, told us to be fair judges towards others, and that with the same measure we judge, so will we be judged. If you are a fair judge, and don't judge others unfairly, then you have done your part as a Christian. Your case of "the person who can't forgive God won't forgive them either" would only be true if the person who was raped became a rapist themselves. In which case not only is the sin of not forgiving added to her head, but also her hypocrisy would make said sin even worse.

Forgiveness is merely the lack of hatred towards someone, or to let go of wrongs. This is what we pray for, that God forgives our enemies, to let go of their faults. That does not mean however that God won't judge said faults, as Jesus and throughout the Bible have said everyone will be judged even though God is a merciful God full of forgiveness. You yourself allude to this, so the fact you can't differentiate between judging and not forgiving is puzzling to me, considering the circumstances which are being discussed (a raped woman fails to forgive a man, which is dependent on what one means by the term "forgiveness", and for the layman, that can mean all sorts of things).

You're also conflating this said judgement and lack of "forgiveness" with hatred. Hatred is not the same as dislike. That a person cannot stand being around someone else because of whichever reason is not the same as hatred. Even Paul rightfully told others to take people away who were not following Christ's steps from their churches because they would spoil the lot. Hatred is basically when you want someone dead, hence why Jesus told us that hatred is the same as murder. Because hatred is murder in intention, just not physically realized for whichever reason (because one fears the law, social reputation, etc.)

God also asks us to be merciful. In the case of a woman who was raped and cannot "forgive" per se, she might not hate the person, she might not want to see the person even in a painting, and she would be in all her right to seek what's rightfully hers morally and legally. Being merciful is merely not taking what's yours. It is realized when God doesn't smite you for being a sinner.

[Nap the Magnificent]

Yes it is lol
Seriously, righteous anger has long been considered non-sinful by many theologians. Many theologians have stated one is not obligated to not forgive those whom have wronged you and not sought forgiveness themselves; doing so is encouraged but not a mortal sin. Hatred is further defined more narrowly as desiring pain, suffering, and sin upon the person who wronged you not simply being angry at them. This has been pointed out to you more than once and your response is to just spam passages.

I mean, if you would bother to read those passages you'd see the relevance of them. Yes there is Righteous Anger, but even Righteous Anger has limits.

As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free.

I have not chosen to ignore it. You have chosen to go for strict, hard, inability to be merciful just as the Pharisees did. It is you who has equated absolute inability to forgive all with hatred, despite that not being the case. You are in no position to speak of a hardened heart when you do not show mercy and understand that the call is to not be hardened against all people.

[Tarsonis]

Yes it is lol
Seriously, righteous anger has long been considered non-sinful by many theologians. Many theologians have stated one is not obligated to not forgive those whom have wronged you and not sought forgiveness themselves; doing so is encouraged but not a mortal sin. Hatred is further defined more narrowly as desiring pain, suffering, and sin upon the person who wronged you not simply being angry at them. This has been pointed out to you more than once and your response is to just spam passages.

This is the point that keeps getting ignored- I once had to have a confessor explain it to me. I can be angry, but if I desire to forgive and do not desire to heap harm upon that who wrongs me, then I have done the minimum for forgiveness.

Correct. To clarify a position in regards to UMN, i never said his friend has to let her abusers back into her life, and live together like nothing happened.

[Salus Maior]

What's not repented of is not forgiven. This is basic Christianity.

Why is the Greatest Commandment so flexible to you now?

No one has repented everything, does no one reach heaven? Moreover, righteous anger is not sinful, nor is it hatred. God did not hate when he drove the money changers out of the temple.

Again, a generality that you can't possibly know and are just using to defend your point. And the desire for repentance still fills the requirement.

Righteous Anger is such a misused concept, used as a crutch for people who don't want to make the hard decision to humble themselves and accept wrongdoing. Not every act of anger is equivalent to what Christ did at the Temple, just because it's sympathetic to you. And a lack of forgiveness is not righteous anger.

[United Muscovite Nations]

No one has repented everything, does no one reach heaven? Moreover, righteous anger is not sinful, nor is it hatred. God did not hate when he drove the money changers out of the temple.

Again, a generality that you can't possibly know and are just using to defend your point. And the desire for repentance still fills the requirement.

Righteous Anger is such a misused concept, used as a crutch for people who don't want to make the hard decision to humble themselves and accept wrongdoing. Not every act of anger is equivalent to what Christ did at the Temple, just because it's sympathetic to you. And a lack of forgiveness is not righteous anger.

Our bodies are temples to Christ, it would be perfectly justified for a rapist to be flogged and driven out. That's not hatred, that's righteous anger.

[Nap the Magnificent]

No one has repented everything, does no one reach heaven? Moreover, righteous anger is not sinful, nor is it hatred. God did not hate when he drove the money changers out of the temple.

Again, a generality that you can't possibly know and are just using to defend your point. And the desire for repentance still fills the requirement.

Righteous Anger is such a misused concept, used as a crutch for people who don't want to make the hard decision to humble themselves and accept wrongdoing. Not every act of anger is equivalent to what Christ did at the Temple, just because it's sympathetic to you. And a lack of forgiveness is not righteous anger.

I'm pretty sure anger at someone who raped you can be classified as Righteous Anger by most people.

[Tarsonis]

I mean, if you would bother to read those passages you'd see the relevance of them. Yes there is Righteous Anger, but even Righteous Anger has limits.

As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free.

I have not chosen to ignore it.

But you have ignored it. You've elected to twist my words and throw baseless accusations at me. I mean you haven't actually refuted a single thing I've said.

You have chosen to go for strict, hard, inability to be merciful just as the Pharisees did. You are in no position to speak of a hardened heart when you do not show mercy and understand that the call is to not be hardened against all people.

Mercy? To whom am I supposed to have shown mercy? This is a theological debate not a ministerial session. We're arguing over theology, I'm not denouncing people from the pulpit.

[South Odreria 2]

So while we're on this topic, I was wondering if Catholics in particular but also others would agree with this statement of LDS doctrine:

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. - Doctrine and Covenants 64:10.

[Grenartia]

You people DO realize there's a difference between committing a sin and simply not living up to an idealized virtue, correct? I find it ironic so many Catholics here fail to acknowledge that difference, despite how often they parrot the "its not a sin to be gay, its a sin to act gay" line their church leadership promotes.

[Atlacatl Batallion]

Yes it is lol
Seriously, righteous anger has long been considered non-sinful by many theologians. Many theologians have stated one is not obligated to not forgive those whom have wronged you and not sought forgiveness themselves; doing so is encouraged but not a mortal sin. Hatred is further defined more narrowly as desiring pain, suffering, and sin upon the person who wronged you not simply being angry at them. This has been pointed out to you more than once and your response is to just spam passages.

I mean, if you would bother to read those passages you'd see the relevance of them. Yes there is Righteous Anger, but even Righteous Anger has limits.

As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free.

Righteous anger has its uses.

Many, many figures in Christianity felt righteous anger towards people, but they turned that into a vehicle to bring God's justice into the sinner.

That is, however, until Jesus showed up and asked us to be merciful, to not take what's rightfully ours just because it's ours to take. And that mercy is a high virtue in itself.

Also, letting go of said animosity and bitterness is not the same as not judging them according to their works. Just because you can forgive doesn't mean you cannot judge people according to their actions.

[Diopolis]

Again, a generality that you can't possibly know and are just using to defend your point. And the desire for repentance still fills the requirement.

Righteous Anger is such a misused concept, used as a crutch for people who don't want to make the hard decision to humble themselves and accept wrongdoing. Not every act of anger is equivalent to what Christ did at the Temple, just because it's sympathetic to you. And a lack of forgiveness is not righteous anger.

Our bodies are temples to Christ, it would be perfectly justified for a rapist to be flogged and driven out. That's not hatred, that's righteous anger.

Justice is for the emperor's enforcement. We do not get to hold grudges.
On the other hand, "not holding a grudge" is a low bar to clear. We do not have to like or trust our enemy. We do not have to be nice or even basically polite. All we have to do is not wish harm upon them.

[Diopolis]

You people DO realize there's a difference between committing a sin and simply not living up to an idealized virtue, correct? I find it ironic so many Catholics here fail to acknowledge that difference, despite how often they parrot the "its not a sin to be gay, its a sin to act gay" line their church leadership promotes.

Yes. The line between "sin" and "not a sin" is wishing harm upon our enemies for the sake of harming them. The idealized virtue is loving our enemy as ourselves.

[Tarsonis]

You need to draw a clear line between hatred and anger and use it consistently. Because so far you've used the term interchangeably.

Have I used hatred previously in the discussion? Not forgiving someone is not necessarily hatred.

yes you have.

No, they aren't. They're repenting of their hatred.


"Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him." 1 John 3:15

A hatred that someone else created in them. A hatred that is deserved.

Now yes Righteous Anger is a thing, but to reiterate even that too must fade.

"As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, no matter how righteous it feels, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free."

[Nap the Magnificent]

I have not chosen to ignore it.

But you have ignored it. You've elected to twist my words and throw baseless accusations at me. I mean you haven't actually refuted a single thing I've said.

You have chosen to go for strict, hard, inability to be merciful just as the Pharisees did. You are in no position to speak of a hardened heart when you do not show mercy and understand that the call is to not be hardened against all people.

Mercy? To whom am I supposed to have shown mercy? This is a theological debate not a ministerial session. We're arguing over theology, I'm not denouncing people from the pulpit.

I have not. This is a common problem with a lot of theology students, they can't handle it when someone goes for the essence of what they are saying and try to obfuscate it by spamming passage after passage after passage.

Don't lie lol people like you link knowledge of theology and ability to quote from scripture at the drop of a hat with moral uprightness because you pay to close attention to the writing as opposed to the essence and spirit of both the faith and what has been said. You cannot bullshit me, Tarsonis. I grew up in an area with a lot of Pentecostals and Calvinists and they pull the same trick each time they are confronted.

[Atlacatl Batallion]

So while we're on this topic, I was wondering if Catholics in particular but also others would agree with this statement of LDS doctrine:

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. - Doctrine and Covenants 64:10.

Eh, it is correct in a sense, tho I believe, depending on how merciful and forgiving God in on LDS theology, it can run into an issue with us more mainstream Christians, in my personal opinion.

[Grenartia]

You people DO realize there's a difference between committing a sin and simply not living up to an idealized virtue, correct? I find it ironic so many Catholics here fail to acknowledge that difference, despite how often they parrot the "its not a sin to be gay, its a sin to act gay" line their church leadership promotes.

Yes. The line between "sin" and "not a sin" is wishing harm upon our enemies for the sake of harming them. The idealized virtue is loving our enemy as ourselves.

You can refuse to forgive someone without wishing harm upon them for the sake of harming them.

[Diopolis]

But you have ignored it. You've elected to twist my words and throw baseless accusations at me. I mean you haven't actually refuted a single thing I've said.




Mercy? To whom am I supposed to have shown mercy? This is a theological debate not a ministerial session. We're arguing over theology, I'm not denouncing people from the pulpit.

I have not. This is a common problem with a lot of theology students, they can't handle it when someone goes for the essence of what they are saying and try to obfuscate it by spamming passage after passage after passage.

Don't lie lol people like you link knowledge of theology and ability to quote from scripture at the drop of a hat with moral uprightness because you pay to close attention to the writing as opposed to the essence and spirit of both the faith and what has been said. You cannot bullshit me, Tarsonis. I grew up in an area with a lot of Pentecostals and Calvinists and they pull the same trick each time they are confronted.

So do overeducated Catholics. It's not a prot specific tendency.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Have I used hatred previously in the discussion? Not forgiving someone is not necessarily hatred.

yes you have.

A hatred that someone else created in them. A hatred that is deserved.

Now yes Righteous Anger is a thing, but to reiterate even that too must fade.

"As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, no matter how righteous it feels, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free."

How does one tell when it becomes hatred?

[Salus Maior]

Again, a generality that you can't possibly know and are just using to defend your point. And the desire for repentance still fills the requirement.

Righteous Anger is such a misused concept, used as a crutch for people who don't want to make the hard decision to humble themselves and accept wrongdoing. Not every act of anger is equivalent to what Christ did at the Temple, just because it's sympathetic to you. And a lack of forgiveness is not righteous anger.

Our bodies are temples to Christ, it would be perfectly justified for a rapist to be flogged and driven out. That's not hatred, that's righteous anger.

It'd be righteous anger in your view to stone the adulterous woman as well, has she not brought harm with what she did?

It'd be righteous anger to condemn the roman soldiers who spat on God and tortured Him.

It'd be righteous anger for Jesus to cast out Peter and the disciples who abandoned Him, and disown them.

It'd likely be righteous anger for God to condemn every one of us to hell and smite the Earth into dust for our sins.

None of us are any more deserving of forgiveness from any other for our neglect of God and our fellow man. But that's not the God we worship, now is it?

Forgiveness is the defining trait of God and the Christian life, a lack of that is a lack of Godliness and one might as well be a pagan.

[Diopolis]

yes you have.




Now yes Righteous Anger is a thing, but to reiterate even that too must fade.

"As St. Paul taught, "26 “In your anger do not sin” : Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. " We are called to put aside our anger, not for their sake for ourselves. This is the issue that you have chosen to ignore and instead sling baseless insults. Righteous Anger turns to hate too easily. Forgiveness isn't about those who wronged you, it's about letting go of that animosity and that bitterness towards them. For as long as you have that bitterness, no matter how righteous it feels, the Devil is at work in you, hardening your heart and turning you against your fellow man.

As I said, hatred is a prison in which we become our own jailers. Forgiveness is the key that sets us free."

How does one tell when it becomes hatred?

You people DO realize there's a difference between committing a sin and simply not living up to an idealized virtue, correct? I find it ironic so many Catholics here fail to acknowledge that difference, despite how often they parrot the "its not a sin to be gay, its a sin to act gay" line their church leadership promotes.

Yes. The line between "sin" and "not a sin" is wishing harm upon our enemies for the sake of harming them. The idealized virtue is loving our enemy as ourselves.

[Nap the Magnificent]

I have not. This is a common problem with a lot of theology students, they can't handle it when someone goes for the essence of what they are saying and try to obfuscate it by spamming passage after passage after passage.

Don't lie lol people like you link knowledge of theology and ability to quote from scripture at the drop of a hat with moral uprightness because you pay to close attention to the writing as opposed to the essence and spirit of both the faith and what has been said. You cannot bullshit me, Tarsonis. I grew up in an area with a lot of Pentecostals and Calvinists and they pull the same trick each time they are confronted.

So do overeducated Catholics. It's not a prot specific tendency.

Fair.

[Tarsonis]

So while we're on this topic, I was wondering if Catholics in particular but also others would agree with this statement of LDS doctrine:

I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. - Doctrine and Covenants 64:10.

We'd agree with the latter clause, but not quite the former. Cause while God will forgive whom he wills, he has in point of fact forgiven all men. That statement implies there are those he does not forgive.


Granted we do say "Will not be forgiven," and perhaps we shouldn't, but we say it that way because it's easier than drawing the distinction of "We're all forgiven, but by not repenting one is not accepting the forgiveness offered." However, that is clearly causing some confusion.

[Salus Maior]

You people DO realize there's a difference between committing a sin and simply not living up to an idealized virtue, correct? I find it ironic so many Catholics here fail to acknowledge that difference, despite how often they parrot the "its not a sin to be gay, its a sin to act gay" line their church leadership promotes.

Nobody cares about your input and personal opinions, Gren.