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Utopia Prison - A Thought Experiment

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Page
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Utopia Prison - A Thought Experiment

Postby Page » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:50 am

Many people in our society seem willing to forfeit a good deal of freedom in exchange for security and law and order. In the spirit of the long and cherished NSG tradition of discussing absurd hypothetical scenarios, I offer a thought experiment for your consideration:

You are approached by a representative of a mysterious group that is looking for people to volunteer to live in their secret compound. Life in this secret compound has several benefits, all provided free of cost, but on the condition that you adhere to all of their rules. These benefits include:

- Food that meets all your calorie needs and contains all of the nutrients necessary for maintaining optimum health.

- High quality and comprehensive medical care including vision, dental, psychiatry, and everything else.

- Protection from all natural disasters and communicable diseases.

- A living space that features bedding, electricity, running water, and air conditioning.

- A life free of crime and violence. You are guaranteed to never be stolen from, assaulted, killed, or victim to any other crime.

- Entertainment and recreation, the amount and variety of which should meet an average person's expectations.


These provisions are dependent on your total obedience to the compound's rules and regulations. Here are some of those rules:

- You will wake up and go to sleep on a schedule determined by management.

- You must wear a uniform at all times. This uniform will be suitable for the temperature and reasonably comfortable, but you cannot alter it in any way, nor can you wear any accessories like hats or earrings.

- You will be given a job suitable to your abilities. You cannot change your hours or choose holiday time. You have to be actively working every moment you're on the clock and you will be under surveillance at all times to ensure compliance. You may not speak to coworkers about anything but work unless you are on break. Your bathroom breaks will be chosen by management and strictly timed.

- You must keep your living space in perfect order. The bed must be made with precision, your clothes must always be folded and kept exactly where management tells you to keep them, as well as every single item in your living space. Even a pen or a roll of toilet paper in the wrong place will result in punishment.

- You must apply to management to form a friendship or romantic relationship with another person who lives in the compound. Management will determine whether or not a potential friend or romantic partner is suitable for you. Unauthorized fraternization will be punished. You are only allowed to speak with other residents at certain times of day. The subject matter which may be discussed is restricted. No profanity, dirty jokes, or sexual innuendo is allowed, nor may you ever criticize management or propose changes to life in the compound. You will also be restricted from discussing certain philosophical topics that management deems detrimental to society.

- You may not consume any psychoactive substances including caffeine and alcohol, unless they are prescribed to you for a medical condition.

As to the nature of punishment, since everyone has their own perspective on what punishment should be, I will not determine what the punishments are. Assume that they are extremely effective deterrents to misbehavior but not unnecessarily cruel in accordance with your own ideas.






So, do you accept the offer to live in this compound? If no, which rules are your dealbreakers? If yes, why do you value security so much that you would accept life under these rules?

And since the custom is that the OP has to state their own opinion, I will do so, although anyone remotely familiar with me should know that all of these rules are dealbreakers for me and the guaranteed security is not remotely worth it. I value liberty far more than security. Our lives are temporary. We have one opportunity to experience life as conscious beings. For that fleeting opportunity to be meaningful, we must be free to experience life on our own terms. It is the diversity of experience, emotion, and thought that makes life matter, as well as our chance to shape the world into a better place for those who come after us so that their lives may be even better than ours.
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Chernoslavia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:57 am

Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:00 am

Sounds alright. Wouldn't take it right now as I'm not willing to give up my current relationship, but it's a steady and stable type of life that meets basic needs, and provides guarantees and structure. I would have taken it at previous points in my life and possibly would if you offered me it sometime in the future. I don't value freedom in itself so much as I value living standards, comfort, and stability.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:00 am

Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Same. It is still a glorified prison, regardless of how many carrots they try to bait me, you, or everyone else with, and these benefits, in the absence of liberty, human rights, democracy, and free expression, are not worth a bucket of warm piss.
Last edited by Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dogmeat
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Dogmeat » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:01 am

I serve the Soviet Union

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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:07 am

Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

I concur. A utopia cannot be guaranteed nor can it be maintained.
One man's utopia is another person's hell.
I prefer the life of the unknown.
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Alliance of Independent Systems
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Alliance of Independent Systems » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:11 am

No. Absolutely not. Not only is this a majority of the guarantees that my local cults offer, it's also far beyond what I consider even my farthest permission of restrictions to my personal life. The rules are arbitrary and restrictive-with no mention of the fact that they are not just undemocratic and totally unrepresentative as far as Management goes-it's extremely restrictive socially and culturally as well. My self-expression is important to me, and I have come to terms with the fact that it comes at the sake of a large part of my safety. I rather take the prison of my own creation, not one prepared for me.
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Xerlon
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Ex-Nation

Postby Xerlon » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:14 am

For me it depends on what the alternative is. Some of those restrictions seem pointless for security anyway.

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Panslav
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Ex-Nation

Postby Panslav » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:15 am

It seemed pretty good at first.
Until I read the last two rules. My personal life is my personal only. Nobody but me can decide what I do with my personal possessions or where I put them, and nobody but me and the person of interaction can decide whether we are to be friends, foes or lovers.
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OLVADIAR
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Ex-Nation

Postby OLVADIAR » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:16 am

Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Better to live in order and regulation than die wild and "free". Freedom is an arbitrary concept too impossible to achieve. True freedom would mean absolutely no control, and true equality means no comparison. The best instrument in the management of society is to keep the populace well-fed but restricted in manner, as to save humanity from themselves. Strength is needed to maintain this order, and strength from mental control and checks like this society are the fundamental way to keep humanity from destroying itself with desire, want, unruliness, and lack of culture. Your simple belief in the dogmatic failure of freedom is implausibly foolish.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:24 am

It sounds a bit like how a Vault was supposed to function, but for the experiments that is...
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Nuroblav
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Ex-Nation

Postby Nuroblav » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:27 am

I'll be staying out of the utopia.

-Firstly the clean living space. I'll probably be living in constant fear of what happens if at least one thing goes out of place. I know what that feels - life with that would be hell.

-The fact that I am restricted from using profanity (what absolute bullshit!) and criticising management (which I'd probably do a lot anyway).

Overall, this wouldn't be a utopia for me. I'd rather live as freely as possible outside. I don't that the quality of life isn't as good; death will happen anyway...
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:37 am

Nah, I likes muy freeeedoms

Needs poll with hasselhoff option.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Mon Dec 23, 2019 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Purpelia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Purpelia » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:08 am

- Food that meets all your calorie needs and contains all of the nutrients necessary for maintaining optimum health.

- High quality and comprehensive medical care including vision, dental, psychiatry, and everything else.

- Protection from all natural disasters and communicable diseases.

- A living space that features bedding, electricity, running water, and air conditioning.

- A life free of crime and violence. You are guaranteed to never be stolen from, assaulted, killed, or victim to any other crime.

- Entertainment and recreation, the amount and variety of which should meet an average person's expectations.

Er... all of these are already trivially accessible to anyone living in a civilized country. Especially anyone with any sort of education and job. The first of which you also get for free or cheap. So what exactly would I be gaining?
Last edited by Purpelia on Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

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Agarntrop
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Ex-Nation

Postby Agarntrop » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:12 am

its basically my life rn
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Ghost Land
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Ghost Land » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:24 am

Oh God no! It sounded pretty good at first, but absolutely nothing in the "you must" section is anything I'd enjoy. Let me live my own life, don't make me do things I don't want to do, let me associate with whom I want to associate with, and let me think and talk about what I want to think and talk about!

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Same. It is still a glorified prison, regardless of how many carrots they try to bait me, you, or everyone else with, and these benefits, in the absence of liberty, human rights, democracy, and free expression, are not worth a bucket of warm piss.

This. Most "fun" events put on by authority figures when I was growing up ended up turning into this anyway, making them far more frustrating than anything else.
Last edited by Ghost Land on Sat May 16, 2020 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bremerton
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Bremerton » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:33 am

Sounds like The Island to me, which has some similarities to what's happening in Xinjiang right now.

I'd rather not be a clone of someone else, vat-grown and bred for the sole purpose of insuring the original's longevity through eventual organ harvesting via the false promise of winning a "lottery" to live on a lush, tropical island paradise. Cuz I'M TOM LINCOLN, YA BASTARDS!


Give me liberty, or give me death. Fuck your proximity warnings, white shoes, "mass winnings" and "nice tests".

I can think of some posters on here who would seriously consider joining this "utopia".
LIBERA TE TUTEMET EX INFERIS (Liberate yourself from hell)
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Novus America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:01 pm

The thing is I already can get most of the benefits without the harms. Food, shelter healthcare? I have those. And not much risk of crime either.

Now not everyone does, and we can and should take steps to ensure more do, but the best argument against the PRC type argument “do you want security or freedom” is that it is not a black and white decision, that you can have a high degree of security and freedom.

While I agree giving up all freedom is not worth security that is a values judgement.

The truth is neither complete freedom nor complete security are possible, it is possible to live in a mostly free society with a high level of security, thus making this a false dichotomy.

The truth is this is not a Hobson’s choice regardless of what dictators like Xi claim.
Last edited by Novus America on Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cetacea
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Ex-Nation

Postby Cetacea » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:32 pm

That sounds very much like School to me :)
5 years with occasional disciplinary incidents, doesn’t sound too bad.
Although I am sure that I would be considered challenging and thus eventually kicked out

Page wrote:Many people in our society seem willing to forfeit a good deal of freedom in exchange for security and law and order. In the spirit of the long and cherished NSG tradition of discussing absurd hypothetical scenarios, I offer a thought experiment for your consideration:

You are approached by a representative of a mysterious group that is looking for people to volunteer to live in their secret compound. Life in this secret compound has several benefits, all provided free of cost, but on the condition that you adhere to all of their rules. These benefits include:

- Food that meets all your calorie needs and contains all of the nutrients necessary for maintaining optimum health.

- High quality and comprehensive medical care including vision, dental, psychiatry, and everything else.

- Protection from all natural disasters and communicable diseases.

- A living space that features bedding, electricity, running water, and air conditioning.

- A life free of crime and violence. You are guaranteed to never be stolen from, assaulted, killed, or victim to any other crime.

- Entertainment and recreation, the amount and variety of which should meet an average person's expectations.


These provisions are dependent on your total obedience to the compound's rules and regulations. Here are some of those rules:

- You will wake up and go to sleep on a schedule determined by management.

- You must wear a uniform at all times. This uniform will be suitable for the temperature and reasonably comfortable, but you cannot alter it in any way, nor can you wear any accessories like hats or earrings.

- You will be given a job suitable to your abilities. You cannot change your hours or choose holiday time. You have to be actively working every moment you're on the clock and you will be under surveillance at all times to ensure compliance. You may not speak to coworkers about anything but work unless you are on break. Your bathroom breaks will be chosen by management and strictly timed.

- You must keep your living space in perfect order. The bed must be made with precision, your clothes must always be folded and kept exactly where management tells you to keep them, as well as every single item in your living space. Even a pen or a roll of toilet paper in the wrong place will result in punishment.

- You must apply to management to form a friendship or romantic relationship with another person who lives in the compound. Management will determine whether or not a potential friend or romantic partner is suitable for you. Unauthorized fraternization will be punished. You are only allowed to speak with other residents at certain times of day. The subject matter which may be discussed is restricted. No profanity, dirty jokes, or sexual innuendo is allowed, nor may you ever criticize management or propose changes to life in the compound. You will also be restricted from discussing certain philosophical topics that management deems detrimental to society.

- You may not consume any psychoactive substances including caffeine and alcohol, unless they are prescribed to you for a medical condition.

As to the nature of punishment, since everyone has their own perspective on what punishment should be, I will not determine what the punishments are. Assume that they are extremely effective deterrents to misbehavior but not unnecessarily cruel in accordance with your own ideas.






So, do you accept the offer to live in this compound? If no, which rules are your dealbreakers? If yes, why do you value security so much that you would accept life under these rules?

And since the custom is that the OP has to state their own opinion, I will do so, although anyone remotely familiar with me should know that all of these rules are dealbreakers for me and the guaranteed security is not remotely worth it. I value liberty far more than security. Our lives are temporary. We have one opportunity to experience life as conscious beings. For that fleeting opportunity to be meaningful, we must be free to experience life on our own terms. It is the diversity of experience, emotion, and thought that makes life matter, as well as our chance to shape the world into a better place for those who come after us so that their lives may be even better than ours.

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New Bremerton
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Bremerton » Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:58 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Same. It is still a glorified prison, regardless of how many carrots they try to bait me, you, or everyone else with, and these benefits, in the absence of liberty, human rights, democracy, and free expression, are not worth a bucket of warm piss.


Singapore is a perfect real-life example of a glorified, open-air prison: A conservative, authoritarian fake democracy with a high standard of living where the average person is fixated solely on getting a good education and a high-paying career and living the kind of life most can only dream of, but with an exceedingly conservative social and political climate that brooks no dissent. Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are mere obstacles toward the goal of being successful at all costs. The period of rapid economic growth post-WWII under the long-reigning PAP under the late dictator Lee Kuan Yew has most Singaporeans angrily and uncritically defending the authoritarian regime in the name of continued stability and economic growth. Anyone who dares to demand greater freedoms for themselves and their countrymen must rebel not only against their government, but also against the vast majority of their fellow countrymen who, by and large, regard any criticism of the PAP government as a personal attack against them. They risk doing so at great personal cost to themselves, such as being sued for libel or slander, arrested on trumped-up charges and ostracized by their peers. Who cares about freedom and democracy when one can "have it all"?

EDIT: Singapore, like its next-door cousin Malaysia, also endured deadly racial riots during the two years it was part of Malaysia. This only adds to the fear that many Singaporeans have that if real democratic political reforms are ever implemented, the different races and faiths will once again turn on each other and plunge the city-state into chaos and all the economic gains made over the past few decades will be lost. The government suppresses freedom of expression partly for this reason.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:08 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Samadhi
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Ex-Nation

Postby Samadhi » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:02 pm

Sounds like something to destroy tbh.
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The Immigrants from Falcon 9
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Immigrants from Falcon 9 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:28 pm

I completely agree. Give me liberty, or give me death. Even when I'm living in a post-apocalyptic world where everybody is against me, as could happen, I will never submit to having my life planned out for me. The complete autocracy which IT has over the citizens of Camazotz in A Wrinkle in Time says it all. IT controls them through hypnosis, and everything is perfectly scheduled, there is no thought of dissent, and people think they are all equal to IT because they are the same. Never!

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Thepeopl
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Thepeopl » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:40 pm

Would I be allowed to learn/ study/ invent/ experiment?
Can I have an extensive SF library?
Could I play (musical) instruments?
And a very very extensive library...
If you have a relationship they approve of, will you be housed together and can you have babies? Will they take care of the baby?
Can I do arts and crafts?
Are animals allowed?
Is there a large compound to exercise? (Including horse riding, running, swimming, climbing, bow shooting, yoga, dancing, mma, parcour, hiking)

If these things all score a yes, I might be able to live there.

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Dooom35796821595
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Dooom35796821595 » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:44 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:Nope, it's the badlands for me.

Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Only a Sith deals in absolutes. :p

Giving up a little liberty actually allows you greater overall liberty.
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Page
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Page » Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:55 pm

Xerlon wrote:For me it depends on what the alternative is. Some of those restrictions seem pointless for security anyway.


I made my hypothetical world to reflect the society we currently live in. Some rules have apparent purpose, others are arbitrary and capricious. That is our real world. In a way, the compound is just a more extreme version of the state, but in exchange there are more extreme benefits.
Last edited by Page on Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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