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Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:31 am
by Bombadil
It seems odd to read back the first post in the original thread when I walked through the genesis of the protests turning from peaceful to violent.

That was six months ago, and here we are.

I think a few things should be outlined:

1. It transpires the original Extradition Bill was not, in fact, in response to the Taiwan murder case, but initiated and devised by the CCP in response to international backlash over their entering HK territory and kidnapping a businessman. The Taiwan case was just an excuse to enact it. Regardless, Taiwan rejected it, HK government continued to push it.
2. Despite 1-2M people marching over the weekend the government still tried to push it through. The Tuesday they tabled it is the day I wrote the original OP. In order to shut down government, protestors fought police and brought the bill to a stop, halted though not withdrawn. It was finally, begrudgingly, withdrawn in October, far too late.
3. 7/21 - the Yuen Long attack by local triads, and the thanks given to them by a local politician that night, seems a key turning point, when police were videoed simply walking away as 20-40 white T-shirt thugs attacked and beat commuters returning home.

These three things caused faith in the police and government to plummet, and for people in HK to determine to hold fast to their goals.

All that was long ago but it created a point of no return.

In October voters overwhelmingly elected pro-democracy candidates, putting to bed to lie there's some silent minority against the protests.

So the question is how this plays out. Do you think the people of HK have a chance? How long will it last or will it slowly wind down? What should protestors, and what should government do?

All this and more..

There is no doubt China has come under great pressure last year, from Xinjiang to Huawei, HK to negative reaction to their heavy handed approach to free speech, in January they face the Taiwan elections.

The story won't go away for China, but how will it all end?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:37 am
by Heloin
Hong Kong may come out of this with minimal scaring or it won’t, the only thing for certain at the moment is that the Hong Kong we knew before these protests is gone forever.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:41 am
by Washington Resistance Army
Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 am
by New Paine
Just out of curiosity, how many those waving around British Hong Kong Flags actually want Hong Kong to become a overseas territory again and how many just use it as a metaphor?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 am
by Genivaria
Free Hong Kong! Free China! The PRC is illegitimate!

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:44 am
by Bombadil
Heloin wrote:Hong Kong may come out of this with minimal scaring or it won’t, the only thing for certain at the moment is that the Hong Kong we knew before these protests is gone forever.


“The situation in Hong Kong makes it very clear to all of us that democracy and authoritarianism are in conflict. The two systems cannot coexist in one country,” - Tsai-ing Wen

One will have to go but the truth is HK changed long ago.. and we kind of knew it but we didn't know it. There were too many examples. I was talking to a journalist friend and she noted she was warned by editorial having written a critical commentary on China back in 2005.

We knew the CE served Beijing not HK, we knew the police went to indoctrination lessons in Beijing, we knew bit by bit free life in HK was being dismantled. We saw booksellers kidnapped and books critical of China leadership disappearing from bookstores. We saw attempts to revise school history books, for Chinese to be taught in primary school in Mandarin. We saw so much.

It still came as a shock when the crunch came.

There's only two possible outcomes, democracy or authoritarianism, but HK is not the mirage we once thought, and that mirage has been ripped away to leave a desolate truth.

New Paine wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many those waving around British Hong Kong Flags actually want Hong Kong to become a overseas territory again and how many just use it as a metaphor?


It's a reminder to Britain of its duties to the Sino-British Joint Resolution, waving US or British flags is asking for support from those countries.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:46 am
by New Paine
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.


Even though I strongly support the positions of the pro-democracy protesters, the PRC has one of the largest militaries behind it. The PRC is also an economic superpower, and has leverage over the international community. So, yeah, you’re right......

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:47 am
by Thermodolia
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.

Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:49 am
by New Paine
Thermodolia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.

Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison


“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:51 am
by Thermodolia
New Paine wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.


Even though I strongly support the positions of the pro-democracy protesters, the PRC has one of the largest militaries behind it. The PRC is also an economic superpower, and has leverage over the international community. So, yeah, you’re right......

They are only there because of US. Cease trade with, arrest any CCP members, ban any official from entering the west, nationalize/seize any Chinese businesses in the west, and ramp up sanctions on them. The Chinese government would collapse once the money runs out.

Add to that the funding and arming of any anti-CCP group and Xi and co are going to be in for a rough ride

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:51 am
by Bombadil
New Paine wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.


Even though I strongly support the positions of the pro-democracy protesters, the PRC has one of the largest militaries behind it. The PRC is also an economic superpower, and has leverage over the international community. So, yeah, you’re right......


As a poster says.. HK is just 8M, the world is 8B.. stand with HK.

There's a slim hope that if countries got their act together to apply pressure and demand China opens up and reforms, as it promised to do in its own 1982 constitution, promises of free speech and democracy, then the CCP would be forced to do so.

It's weird how the bigger films of the year have seemed relevant to HK.. changing history and whatever it takes in Endgame, The Joker, and the Rise of Skywalker, and all have been co-opted into posters for the cause.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:52 am
by Thermodolia
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison


“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:52 am
by -Astoria
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison


“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

Think that was sarcasm...

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:52 am
by Valentine Z
The previous thread is done? Damn... What a lot of talking, and I didn't mean that negatively, hehe.

So.... I have not been watching the news as of late, so I am not too informed on the situation. Protesters still protesting, or has things settle down a little?

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:53 am
by North German Realm
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison


“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

It wouldn't be really difficult if the Western Countries actually had any balls tbh.

Thermodolia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Really the only way this ends long term is Hong Kong becomes just another part of the PRC. That was sealed in stone the moment the British handed it over.

Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison

Honestly this shitshow (and similar stuff) will only continue as long as China as a polity and Chinese as a national identity continue to exist. The existence of a central authority in China is bad for the world by its very nature.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:53 am
by Thermodolia
-Astoria wrote:
New Paine wrote:
“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

Think that was sarcasm...

It’s not.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:54 am
by Heloin
New Paine wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many those waving around British Hong Kong Flags actually want Hong Kong to become a overseas territory again and how many just use it as a metaphor?

The flag of Hong Kong represents a government that’s lost its legitimacy in the eyes of its people and a symbol of unity with the mainland that isn’t wanted. The flag of British Hong Kong isn’t a symbol of British rule anymore to those flying it, its more of a symbol of separateness.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:54 am
by -Astoria
Thermodolia wrote:
-Astoria wrote:Think that was sarcasm...

It’s not.

I see.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:55 am
by New Paine
Thermodolia wrote:
New Paine wrote:
“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed


Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:55 am
by Thermodolia
North German Realm wrote:
New Paine wrote:
“End the PRC” You make it sound so easy.... :roll:

It wouldn't be really difficult if the Western Countries actually had any balls tbh.

Thermodolia wrote:Or we just end the PRC. Make the three kingdoms period look sane in comparison

Honestly this shitshow (and similar stuff) will only continue as long as China as a polity and Chinese as a national identity continue to exist. The existence of a central authority in China is bad for the world by its very nature.

Which is why I advocate for breaking China up. China should be so smashed to bits that the beginning of the three kingdoms period looks United.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:56 am
by Heloin
-Astoria wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:It’s not.

I see.

The only policy towards the PRC should be its end.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:57 am
by North German Realm
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed


Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

It is in fact not an "Economic powerhouse". Compared to its population, resources, and power projection, it has one of the worst economies in the world. And that economy could be easily crippled even without firing a shot -again, if private entities weren't fucking traitors and the governments had any balls.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:57 am
by Bombadil
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed


Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.


China is still an export economy, it's more fragile than those with a stronger internal economy. The problem is, we have no time. The world is running quickly out of time to make a difference. HK is on its last breath.

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:58 am
by Thermodolia
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed


Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

Conscripts aren’t great fighters.

Also China is an export based economy. Meaning that if they can’t export shit they will collapse economically. The idea that it’s a losing battle is doomer bullshit.
Thermodolia wrote:
New Paine wrote:
Even though I strongly support the positions of the pro-democracy protesters, the PRC has one of the largest militaries behind it. The PRC is also an economic superpower, and has leverage over the international community. So, yeah, you’re right......

They are only there because of US. Cease trade with, arrest any CCP members, ban any official from entering the west, nationalize/seize any Chinese businesses in the west, and ramp up sanctions on them. The Chinese government would collapse once the money runs out.

Add to that the funding and arming of any anti-CCP group and Xi and co are going to be in for a rough ride

PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:58 am
by Heloin
New Paine wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:You can. Nobody wants to do it because they are either corrupt or weak willed


Um, no because it is a losing battle. People on this forum seems to forget that the PRC has one of the largest standing armies in the world and is a economic powerhouse.

China is a net importer of food. It’ll literally starve to death without their western trade partners.