Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

[Heloin]

Most of the time people have been around there was no such thing as government. Appealing to history for proof doesn't help you, especially when you're notoriously bad at knowing that history.


Any first year student of sociology would tell you that you're sidestepping the much more obvious question, why are people committing crimes? People aren't just criminals and often do things for a reason. Compliance as an end to the conversation has little to do with anything aside for a refusal to discuss the cause behind the crime.

They are committing crimes because they are not loyal to the Hong Kong government and its laws. That much is clear. That is all that needs to be considered.

If I was a teacher you'd of just failed the assignment. You say people are committing crimes yes? Then why are normal people committing crimes then? If you don't have an answer, a real answer that your argument can stand on then you don't have an argument.

[Novus America]

No, it's at the heart of the issue, no accountability, leading to the complete ignoring of popular will is what led to any law breaking. Let's remember the timeline.

HK government formulates Extradition Law to purportedly deal with the Taiwan murder case, although it later transpires they'd formulated this law on the direct request of the CCP so they could legally extract people from HK rather than illegally kidnap people as they'd previously been doing.
Taiwan rejects the law because it places Taiwanese people in danger
HK government still pushes the law, because it was never really about Taiwan in the first place
Millions turn out peacefully over the weekend to protest the law, HK government ignores them and tables the law for votes the following Tuesday
On that Tuesday, even more millions protest and people then block Legco leading to outbreaks of violence between protestors and police

In fact, in following the demands of the CCP in creating this law the HK government broke Basic Law in the extent to which they allowed CCP interference with the legislation of HK.

Government and police accountability are the very crux of this issue, because without it they can clearly act arbitrarily and break the law themselves with no means of address.

The people of HK have tried to hold them to account, and yet the fact that not one single officer has even been reprimanded despite mountains of evidence where they are breaking the law, shows that the government and police simply do not care, or cannot be seen to care by the CCP.

In the end, the CCP and HK government are breaking international law, their own Basic Law and then everyday law in regard to police conduct.

The response is more than warranted.

The extradition bill was good policy. It served a law and order purpose (closing a loophole in the law).

In any event, it was withdrawn so it is no longer a factor at play (though I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-implemented in a few years).

Not good policy if you believe in due process. But of course you do not believe in due process.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

They are committing crimes because they are not loyal to the Hong Kong government and its laws. That much is clear. That is all that needs to be considered.

The PRC'ian law enforcement services, as we have established in the past pages engages in wanton thuggery including murder in broad daylight and before witnesses. This is clearly illegal according to Peking's own laws.
Then according to your argument are the PRC'ian law enforcement services disloyal to their own regime?

[Novus America]

They are committing crimes because they are not loyal to the Hong Kong government and its laws. That much is clear. That is all that needs to be considered.

The PRC'ian law enforcement services, as we have established in the past pages engages in wanton thuggery including murder in broad daylight and before witnesses. This is clearly illegal according to Peking's own laws.
Then according to your argument are the PRC'ian law enforcement services disloyal to their own regime?

The problem is of course the PRC regime does not obey its and is not bound by its own laws.
The PRC constitution officially enshrines rights, but it is not followed, and the CCP does not have to obey it. The government can override and ignore laws at will.

[Bombadil]

The PRC'ian law enforcement services, as we have established in the past pages engages in wanton thuggery including murder in broad daylight and before witnesses. This is clearly illegal according to Peking's own laws.
Then according to your argument are the PRC'ian law enforcement services disloyal to their own regime?

The problem is of course the PRC regime does not obey its and is not bound by its own laws.
The PRC constitution officially enshrines rights, but it is not followed, and the CCP does not have to obey it. The government can override and ignore laws at will.

Article 35 of the 1982 State Constitution proclaims that "citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration."

Ha ha ha.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The PRC'ian law enforcement services, as we have established in the past pages engages in wanton thuggery including murder in broad daylight and before witnesses. This is clearly illegal according to Peking's own laws.
Then according to your argument are the PRC'ian law enforcement services disloyal to their own regime?

The problem is of course the PRC regime does not obey its and is not bound by its own laws.
The PRC constitution officially enshrines rights, but it is not followed, and the CCP does not have to obey it. The government can override and ignore laws at will.

Is this what I would term a Regnum Barbarorum? A Reich of Barbarians? <.>

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, it's at the heart of the issue, no accountability, leading to the complete ignoring of popular will is what led to any law breaking. Let's remember the timeline.

HK government formulates Extradition Law to purportedly deal with the Taiwan murder case, although it later transpires they'd formulated this law on the direct request of the CCP so they could legally extract people from HK rather than illegally kidnap people as they'd previously been doing.
Taiwan rejects the law because it places Taiwanese people in danger
HK government still pushes the law, because it was never really about Taiwan in the first place
Millions turn out peacefully over the weekend to protest the law, HK government ignores them and tables the law for votes the following Tuesday
On that Tuesday, even more millions protest and people then block Legco leading to outbreaks of violence between protestors and police

In fact, in following the demands of the CCP in creating this law the HK government broke Basic Law in the extent to which they allowed CCP interference with the legislation of HK.

Government and police accountability are the very crux of this issue, because without it they can clearly act arbitrarily and break the law themselves with no means of address.

The people of HK have tried to hold them to account, and yet the fact that not one single officer has even been reprimanded despite mountains of evidence where they are breaking the law, shows that the government and police simply do not care, or cannot be seen to care by the CCP.

In the end, the CCP and HK government are breaking international law, their own Basic Law and then everyday law in regard to police conduct.

The response is more than warranted.

The extradition bill was good policy. It served a law and order purpose (closing a loophole in the law).

It served an authoritarian purpose.

In any event, it was withdrawn so it is no longer a factor at play (though I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-implemented in a few years).

Gee, no wonder they're still protesting in Hong Kong.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Unsurprisingly the IPCC report on police conduct has been delayed..

The Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC) will delay the publication of its interim report on the months-long social unrest, pending the results of a judicial review.

In a press statement issued after a meeting on Thursday, the IPCC said the first interim report was originally planned to be released in early 2020, but the High Court granted leave to an application on Dec. 20 last year for the judicial review (JR) which seeks to challenge the council’s power to conduct the “thematic study” as it is called, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

“Having discussed with its legal advisers about the ongoing court proceedings and after considering the various implications of the possible outcomes of the JR, it was unanimously resolved at [Thursday’s] meeting to postpone the decision on the publication of the interim report of the said thematic study until after the delivery of judgment in the JR,” the police watchdog said in the statement.

Given Carrie Lam has stated she will not broach any criticism of the police I doubt even this watered down IPCC report will ever be released.

The final version of the IPCC's glowing report reads thus: "We conclude that the Hong Kong Police Force is... severely lacking... problems... of wanton police brutality... a disturbing culture of impunity and... egregious human rights violations... We give the HKPF a... passing... grade of... A... Star[ry Lee]."

The IPCC furiously denies the obviously false and defamatory claims that the report has been extensively redacted to misleadingly paint the infallible, exemplary and exceedingly stellar police force in a more positive light.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Unsurprisingly the IPCC report on police conduct has been delayed..

The Independent Police Complaints Council (IPCC) will delay the publication of its interim report on the months-long social unrest, pending the results of a judicial review.

In a press statement issued after a meeting on Thursday, the IPCC said the first interim report was originally planned to be released in early 2020, but the High Court granted leave to an application on Dec. 20 last year for the judicial review (JR) which seeks to challenge the council’s power to conduct the “thematic study” as it is called, the Hong Kong Economic Journal reports.

“Having discussed with its legal advisers about the ongoing court proceedings and after considering the various implications of the possible outcomes of the JR, it was unanimously resolved at [Thursday’s] meeting to postpone the decision on the publication of the interim report of the said thematic study until after the delivery of judgment in the JR,” the police watchdog said in the statement.

Given Carrie Lam has stated she will not broach any criticism of the police I doubt even this watered down IPCC report will ever be released.

The final version of the IPCC's glowing report reads thus: "We conclude that the Hong Kong Police Force is... severely lacking... problems... of wanton police brutality... a disturbing culture of impunity and... egregious human rights violations... We give the HKPF a... passing... grade of... A... Star[ry Lee]."

The IPCC furiously denies the obviously false and defamatory claims that the report has been extensively redacted.

It will never come out or the entire IPCC gets carted off to Xinjiang to make panties in slave-factories. <.>

[Bombadil]

Gee, no wonder they're still protesting in Hong Kong.

In 2010 the CCP conducted a survey of Guangdong in relation to making Mandarin the primary language of TV, some 80% said no. As ever they ignored this and put forward a proposal regardless. Protests broke out.

Organizers of the activity had informed local police in advance, but were forced by the authorities to cancel it. People, however, gathered regardless.

During the gathering, the crowd shouted slogans promoting Cantonese, including the battle cry of a famous Cantonese general, Yuan Chonghuan, and mocking at Ji Keguang, who was believed to be the most active supporter in the CPPCC Guangzhou Committee; they also sang Glorious Years by Beyond.

The response by the CCP was much the same as we see in HK, we are not patriotic enough and if we just had some good CCP propaganda instilled in us we would be more acquiescent.

Ji Keguang, the most prominent proponent of the proposal, when requested for comment on the 90% agreement to Cantonese programming in the online survey, responded with "They need guidance", which eventually put him at the center of criticism from local citizens and netizens.

However, of course, once it quietened down..

Yet in December 2011, the Government of Guangdong promoted a new rule that took effect on 1 March 2012, stating that all government workers, teachers, conference holders and TV/radio host were to use Mandarin rather than dialects such as Cantonese in public appearances, and any Cantonese (or Hakka or Teochew) language TV or radio shows will be broadcast only after permission is granted by the government.

And they wonder why no one trusts the CCP here.

[Catburg]

The problem is of course the PRC regime does not obey its and is not bound by its own laws.
The PRC constitution officially enshrines rights, but it is not followed, and the CCP does not have to obey it. The government can override and ignore laws at will.

Article 35 of the 1982 State Constitution proclaims that "citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration."

Ha ha ha.

Lmao. That's a good joke.

[Novus America]

The problem is of course the PRC regime does not obey its and is not bound by its own laws.
The PRC constitution officially enshrines rights, but it is not followed, and the CCP does not have to obey it. The government can override and ignore laws at will.

Article 35 of the 1982 State Constitution proclaims that "citizens of the People's Republic of China enjoy freedom of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of procession, and of demonstration."

Ha ha ha.

Yep, I can pass a law saying “pigs will fly under their own power”.
It would be more meaningful.

A law that is not respected by the government is not worth the paper it is printed on.

Accountability is everything. If the government is not accountable to the law, then the law is just legal fiction.
Without accountability there can be no rule of law in practice.

[Tuthina]

In any event, it was withdrawn so it is no longer a factor at play (though I wouldn't be surprised if it was re-implemented in a few years).

Gee, no wonder they're still protesting in Hong Kong.

Oh, if the movement dies down, then it's safe to say that not just the ELAB will be back, but the government will be doubling down on its oppression on all fronts, making things like booing the PRC anthem and contempt towards police illegal. That fear, above most else, is the keystone to the movement's continued existence and solidarity despite the government and the police trying their hardest to splinter the smaller but (relatively) better-armed radicals from the much larger, but mostly pacifistic general population. Of course, all it managed to achieve outside few isolated cases is the two sides reconsolidating (since the fracture during the last days of the 2014 Occupy movement) to facilitate each other's goal, as well as the general population radicalising. There are also other less direct (and thus less eye-catching) ways to maintain the momentum of the movement, from maintaining Lennon Walls (which will likely see official District Council endorsement in the near future) to the expansion of the Yellow Economic Zone that reduces the effectiveness of PRC's control over our local microeconomy. The fact that the government and pro-government papers have been criticising the Yellow Economic Zone non-stop shows that it's actually working well enough to draw fire.

[Infected Mushroom]

Gee, no wonder they're still protesting in Hong Kong.

Oh, if the movement dies down, then it's safe to say that not just the ELAB will be back, but the government will be doubling down on its oppression on all fronts, making things like booing the PRC anthem and contempt towards police illegal. That fear, above most else, is the keystone to the movement's continued existence and solidarity despite the government and the police trying their hardest to splinter the smaller but (relatively) better-armed radicals from the much larger, but mostly pacifistic general population. Of course, all it managed to achieve outside few isolated cases is the two sides reconsolidating (since the fracture during the last days of the 2014 Occupy movement) to facilitate each other's goal, as well as the general population radicalising. There are also other less direct (and thus less eye-catching) ways to maintain the momentum of the movement, from maintaining Lennon Walls (which will likely see official District Council endorsement in the near future) to the expansion of the Yellow Economic Zone that reduces the effectiveness of PRC's control over our local microeconomy. The fact that the government and pro-government papers have been criticising the Yellow Economic Zone non-stop shows that it's actually working well enough to draw fire.

If the movement dies down the following will happen:

1. The city’s economy and infrastructure will be restored to its former glory
2. Those engaged in unlawful activities will face prosecution
3. Hong Kong will be further integrated, economically into the PRC
4. The police will continue to protect the people

This is what I understand would happen.

[Infected Mushroom]

They are committing crimes because they are not loyal to the Hong Kong government and its laws. That much is clear. That is all that needs to be considered.

No, one many people have been attacked by PRC things despite not committing any crime.
And you only have a reason loyal to a government and laws that is generally just and representative.
A government that ceases to be just and representative may justify law breaking up to armed uprisings.

Armed revolt would not be justified

[Heloin]

Oh, if the movement dies down, then it's safe to say that not just the ELAB will be back, but the government will be doubling down on its oppression on all fronts, making things like booing the PRC anthem and contempt towards police illegal. That fear, above most else, is the keystone to the movement's continued existence and solidarity despite the government and the police trying their hardest to splinter the smaller but (relatively) better-armed radicals from the much larger, but mostly pacifistic general population. Of course, all it managed to achieve outside few isolated cases is the two sides reconsolidating (since the fracture during the last days of the 2014 Occupy movement) to facilitate each other's goal, as well as the general population radicalising. There are also other less direct (and thus less eye-catching) ways to maintain the momentum of the movement, from maintaining Lennon Walls (which will likely see official District Council endorsement in the near future) to the expansion of the Yellow Economic Zone that reduces the effectiveness of PRC's control over our local microeconomy. The fact that the government and pro-government papers have been criticising the Yellow Economic Zone non-stop shows that it's actually working well enough to draw fire.

If the movement dies down the following will happen:

1. The city’s economy and infrastructure will be restored to its former glory
2. Those engaged in unlawful activities will face prosecution
3. Hong Kong will be further integrated, economically into the PRC
4. The police roll continue to protect the people

This is what I understand would happen.

Every point you made is at odds with another one.

[Infected Mushroom]

If the movement dies down the following will happen:

1. The city’s economy and infrastructure will be restored to its former glory
2. Those engaged in unlawful activities will face prosecution
3. Hong Kong will be further integrated, economically into the PRC
4. The police roll continue to protect the people

This is what I understand would happen.

Every point you made is at odds with another one.

Together, Hong Kong and the PRC will build a bigger, better, brighter future

This is where we’re headed (to the best of my understanding)

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Every point you made is at odds with another one.

Together, Hong Kong and the PRC will build a bigger, better, brighter future

This is where we’re headed (to the best of my understanding)

You have an incredibly horrible understanding.

[Bombadil]

Together, Hong Kong and the PRC will build a bigger, better, brighter future

This is where we’re headed (to the best of my understanding)

You have an incredibly horrible understanding.

Together the [insert region] and the USSR will build a bigger, better, brighter future.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

IM, stop shillling for the government. You’re only leading yourself into a loophole of denial.

We’ve presented multiple arguments as to why these government officials you are so proud of for “upholding” the law, when in reality, they shit all over it.

[Bombadil]

IM, stop shillling for the government. You’re only leading yourself into a loophole of denial.

We’ve presented multiple arguments as to why these government officials you are so proud of for “upholding” the law, when in reality, they shit all over it.

He'll never stop, yet as I noted he keeps this thread going through his poor response much as the HK government keeps the protests going through theirs.

Neither understand that connection.

[Nakena]

IM, stop shillling for the government. You’re only leading yourself into a loophole of denial.

We’ve presented multiple arguments as to why these government officials you are so proud of for “upholding” the law, when in reality, they shit all over it.

He'll never stop, yet as I noted he keeps this thread going through his poor response much as the HK government keeps the protests going through theirs.

Neither understand that connection.

You know the CPC might ban League of Legends or heavily restrict it.

[Heloin]

He'll never stop, yet as I noted he keeps this thread going through his poor response much as the HK government keeps the protests going through theirs.

Neither understand that connection.

You know the CPC might ban League of Legends or heavily restrict it.

viewtopic.php?p=35996484#p35996484

[The New California Republic]

Every point you made is at odds with another one.

Together, Hong Kong and the PRC will build a bigger, better, brighter future

This is where we’re headed (to the best of my understanding)

[Infected Mushroom]

He'll never stop, yet as I noted he keeps this thread going through his poor response much as the HK government keeps the protests going through theirs.

Neither understand that connection.

You know the CPC might ban League of Legends or heavily restrict it.

This would cause me concern

I have over 1 million mastery points on one character; I do not wish to be interrupted on my ranked climb