Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

[Satuga]

Beijing on Monday defended barring the head of Human Rights Watch from entering Hong Kong, saying non-governmental organisations were responsible for political unrest in the semi-autonomous city and should "pay the proper price".

...

"Allowing or not allowing someone's entry is China's sovereign right," foreign ministry spokesman Geng Shuang said at a regular press briefing.

"Plenty of facts and evidence show that the relevant NGO has through various means supported anti-China radicals, encouraged them to engage in extremist, violent and criminal activity, and incited Hong Kong independence separatist activities," Geng said.

I think that explains it well enough

So they're making up bullshit by saying that outside organisations are responsible for the unrest instead of the governmental incompetence? This is literally just an excuse they are using instead of giving the real reason of the barring.

[Infected Mushroom]

I'll take his word over yours, he's an important member of the Chinese government and this shows that its just as I suspected, Kenneth Roth and his group are trying to cause trouble in China and destabilise it

Geng gave no proof at all. Just because his position agrees with yours does not mean that either of you are right, it just means that you both subscribe to the same bullshit.

hence the decision to bar him is 100% justified given that he is the leader of a group that supported radicals, promoted Hong Kong independence, and directly/indirectly encouraged anti-government forces to commit acts of violence

I believe if he had done this sort of thing against a western government (encouraged and supported factions that tried to bring the US down and caused chaos in the cities), he and his group would literally have been labelled a terrorist organisation

This is getting fucking pathetic, you are painting a human rights advocate as a terrorist. Absolute desperation on your part, picking at straws to justify what was done, even though there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to back up what you or Geng are saying.

Mind you, you also labelled Amnesty a "hate group", so this latest nonsense should not be surprising. But the real ironic thing is that you are accusing a human rights guy of promoting violence on no basis whatsoever, when there is evidence that you yourself have advocated using military force such as tanks etc against demonstrators.

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

he represents the PRC when he says this

[The Free Joy State]

I think that explains it well enough

So they're making up bullshit by saying that outside organisations are responsible for the unrest instead of the governmental incompetence? This is literally just an excuse they are using instead of giving the real reason of the barring.

Beijing are clearly hoping what Goebbels said was true: repeat a lie enough and people will eventually believe it.

[The New California Republic]

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

...without giving any evidence whatsoever.

[The Free Joy State]

Geng gave no proof at all. Just because his position agrees with yours does not mean that either of you are right, it just means that you both subscribe to the same bullshit.


This is getting fucking pathetic, you are painting a human rights advocate as a terrorist. Absolute desperation on your part, picking at straws to justify what was done, even though there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to back up what you or Geng are saying.

Mind you, you also labelled Amnesty a "hate group", so this latest nonsense should not be surprising. But the real ironic thing is that you are accusing a human rights guy of promoting violence on no basis whatsoever, when there is evidence that you yourself have advocated using military force such as tanks etc against demonstrators.

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

he represents the PRC when he says this

And he's still lying.

Human Rights Watch scrutinises the actions of governments. That's what the PRC fears.

[Satuga]

Beijing are clearly hoping what Goebbels said was true: repeat a lie enough and people will eventually believe it.

Considering how often they were saying that HK's majority was pro-government, when they clearly weren't this isn't exactly suprising.

[Infected Mushroom]

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

...without giving any evidence whatsoever.

the government will fully disclose the evidence at a future more opportune time

however, I am not surprised at all. I always these NGOs were extensions of western policy.

[Infected Mushroom]

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

he represents the PRC when he says this

And he's still lying.

Human Rights Watch scrutinises the actions of governments. That's what the PRC fears.

not according to what he says

he said that "the NGO" (this NGO) was among several groups responsible for encouraging violence, HK independence, and other destabilising actions

there's a much greater degree of wrongdoing

[The New California Republic]

...without giving any evidence whatsoever.

the government will fully disclose the evidence at a future more opportune time

Hahahaha, they won't, they really won't.

They just needed some random made-up shit to justify barring him, to cover up the real reason for it.

however, I am not surprised at all. I always these NGOs were extensions of western policy.

How deep down the conspiracy rabbithole are you going to go in order to hide from the truth?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

...without giving any evidence whatsoever.

the government will fully disclose the evidence at a future more opportune time

however, I am not surprised at all. I always these NGOs were extensions of western policy.

What people do for fifty cents, Infected "Beijing Bob" Mushroom does for free. The CPC couldn't ask for a better ass-kisser.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

Geng gave no proof at all. Just because his position agrees with yours does not mean that either of you are right, it just means that you both subscribe to the same bullshit.


This is getting fucking pathetic, you are painting a human rights advocate as a terrorist. Absolute desperation on your part, picking at straws to justify what was done, even though there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to back up what you or Geng are saying.

Mind you, you also labelled Amnesty a "hate group", so this latest nonsense should not be surprising. But the real ironic thing is that you are accusing a human rights guy of promoting violence on no basis whatsoever, when there is evidence that you yourself have advocated using military force such as tanks etc against demonstrators.

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

he represents the PRC when he says this

And Mr. Roth, in a way, can also be said to represent all of humanity, which is his interest as an observer of possible human rights abuses. There is also evidence aplenty of the manipulation and smearing at hand to coverup the trail of lies leading to the CCP.

A trail that’s been blatantly clear to all of us but you.

[The Free Joy State]

And he's still lying.

Human Rights Watch scrutinises the actions of governments. That's what the PRC fears.

not according to what he says

he said that "the NGO" (this NGO) was among several groups responsible for encouraging violence, HK independence, and other destabilising actions

there's a much greater degree of wrongdoing

If someone told me they could heal every disease, I would demand to see irrefutable evidence -- with my own eyes

If a government tells me that those critical of them are wicked, I demand to see irrefutable evidence -- with my own eyes.

Always be critical about what anyone -- no matter who they are -- tells you. Or else, history teaches, you will get screwed over.

I would take anything Geng says with a grain of salt.

[The New California Republic]

And he's still lying.

Human Rights Watch scrutinises the actions of governments. That's what the PRC fears.

not according to what he says

he said that "the NGO" (this NGO) was among several groups responsible for encouraging violence, HK independence, and other destabilising actions

there's a much greater degree of wrongdoing

From a party stooge. This "evidence" came from a party stooge. And he didn't even provide evidence. He said there was evidence but gave fuck all. Come on IM, open your eyes to what shit is being pulled in front of your face.

[Novus America]

Solid proof that democracy is a poor system in Hong Kong.

And there you go again, spinning the news to fit your agenda against democracy and shilling for dictatorship:

I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

And the most hilariously ironic thing is if Beijing allowed Hong Kong real free and fair elections, and real autonomy then the protests would stop! It would be cleaner and more orderly.

Xi’s oppression, not freedom is causing the unrest.

Something the CCP stooges never address.

If the PRC allowed Hong Kong to have a real constitution with free and fair elections, a transparent government, and stopped interfering in its internal affairs the protests would stop.

[The Free Joy State]

not according to what he says

he said that "the NGO" (this NGO) was among several groups responsible for encouraging violence, HK independence, and other destabilising actions

there's a much greater degree of wrongdoing

From a party stooge. This "evidence" came from a party stooge. And he didn't even provide evidence. He said there was evidence but gave fuck all. Come on IM, open your eyes to what shit is being pulled in front of your face.

"There is evidence, but you can't see it yet. You can see it at some more fortuitous time." is up there on the rollcall of bullshittery with "I can levitate but now is not the time. You are not spiritually advanced to see it yet."

[Infected Mushroom]

I believe that Mr. Geng Shuen, the foreign ministry spokesperson for the PRC, has said that all that needs to be said at this time to address the truth regarding the barring of Kenneth

I am satisfied with his answer and I find that it answers all of my queries regarding the matter

If anything else, this puts me inside the realm of the truth (since the existence of evidence has been disclosed by a reputable government party), and all detractors of this position within the realm of conspiracy theory. The PRC government has come forth and said "hey we've got literal proof that he's the leader of an NGO that tried to destabilise Hong Kong and China"... now the ball has been passed to you.

The PRC has cleared everything up.

[The New California Republic]

I believe that Mr. Geng Shuen, the foreign ministry spokesperson for the PRC, has said that all that needs to be said at this time to address the truth regarding the barring of Kenneth

Except he didn't. He alluded to evidence but didn't give any.

I am satisfied with his answer and I find that it answers all of my queries regarding the matter

The only reason you are satisfied is because he said exactly what you wanted to hear, because it corresponds to the party line that you adhere to.

If anything else, this puts me inside the realm of the truth (since the existence of evidence has been disclosed by a reputable government party), and all detractors of this position within the realm of conspiracy theory.

He. Gave. No. Evidence. If anything the accusations and lack of evidence given puts the party, and you by merit of adhering to them, squarely in the realm of lies.

The PRC government has come forth and said "hey we've got literal proof that he's the leader of an NGO that tried to destabilise Hong Kong and China"... now the ball has been passed to you.

The PRC has cleared everything up.

Bullshit. It has cleared up fuck all when they have made accusations with no evidence.

[Gormwood]

Seriously, shadow banning would be a lot more brutal than debating with a lead wall. All you're doing is giving away Social Credit Points.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

He’s been a site member here for years. It’s be a real fuckin long con to not be at this point.

Ironically he says he's from Montreal.. maybe he lived in Canada, maybe he's naturalised but I doubt he was born in Canada.

If they do live in Montreal what they are doing is active fifth columnism and moral treason against the Crown.
<.>

[Tuthina]

Seriously, shadow banning would be a lot more brutal than debating with a lead wall. All you're doing is giving away Social Credit Points.

Maybe you guys should stop replying to IM to make it a de facto shadowbanning. I don't think the exchange really contributing to anything in the last 500 pages, and I doubt it would change in the next 500 pages. IM's stance, inane and disgusting as it might be, at least has the benefit of being so out-there that no one seems to buy into that, even the few who do support the government and the police.

Personally, I just feel drained and tired about the whole thing. Sometimes, I think I should just stop reading the local news so that I can keep myself from being depressed about all these horrible things, like how there're at least two more "suicide" today, with one having video footage of the supposedly "suicide" by jumping off a disciplined service residence. I normally don't talk about speculations that much, but I think seeing the one "committing suicide" by folding himself to squeeze through a tiny window, and clearly already not having consciousness when he took the leap, makes it a bit too hard to deny it not being a case of a corpse being thrown off building. Of course, the fact that the police immediately come out to say it's suicide only makes me feel more angry and unwell, as in actually feeling physical sickness.

I think I'm starting to see why some people think vigilantism against police officers is a good idea. Seriously, screw them.

Edit: For those who still want to see the video in question, it has been circulating around both on Facebook and Reddit in relevant places. Not for the faint of heart, though.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I think I'm starting to see why some people think vigilantism against police officers is a good idea. Seriously, screw them.

Now if the CPC would be forced to replace their bandits and thugs every time their bandits and thugs accosted somebody displeasing their leadership. *thinke*

[Tuthina]

I think I'm starting to see why some people think vigilantism against police officers is a good idea. Seriously, screw them.

Now if the CPC would be forced to replace their bandits and thugs every time their bandits and thugs accosted somebody displeasing their leadership. *thinke*

I'm not delusional enough to not see it being a cycle of violence, because they will definitely find someone to "make an example of" in such hypothetical case of vigilantism, which in turns prompt more vigilantism against them in a downward spiral not unlike that of the Troubles. But to be honest? Maybe that's still more preferable than what's going no now - at least the killing would be bilateral.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Ok. That’s interesting. Does he predominantly speak Chinese?

The odds are low, considering that they cite English sources exclusively, with no reference to any notable news that I know that doesn't get an English report.

Personally, I'm still quite suspicious of IM's status as someone being in Hong Kong, both due to IM's somewhat slow reception and reporting on local news (which, admittedly, might also be due to the aforementioned English-exclusive sourcing) and that they also post in odd hours - the past few pages where they post is most is in the dead of the night in Hong Kong.

I hate to defend IM, but to be fair, I also post during odd hours when I ought to be sleeping. It's a bad habit I haven't been able to overcome to my own detriment because reasons. The country I currently reside in is in the same time zone as Hong Kong. I'm also not fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese despite having been born and raised in Hong Kong and being ethnically Chinese. International schools tend to have that effect on expat kids. Maybe, like me, IM also has a poor sleep routine, plays online games with players on the other side of the world on a U.S.-based server/surfs the web all night long, and doesn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese very well if at all, and he has stated that, like me, he has attended international schools in the region.

Reading through his posts, he refers to China as "his" country and mentions relatives who voted KMT in the recent Taiwanese election, indicating that he may be ethnically Han Chinese at the very least. I used to regard China as "my" country for purely cultural and ethnic reasons despite never having been a HK or Chinese citizen in my life (birthright citizenship (thankfully for me) doesn't exist in HK), as have many Hong Kongers until recently. For this reason alone, I used to defend China's alleged historic claims to Tibet and Taiwan when I was younger and more "woke", and considered myself pro-China but anti-CCP. When the 2008 Tibet unrest broke out and Western protesters were chanting "Free Tibet", I was so far down the rabbit hole that I fantasized about how China could totally wipe Britain off the map with a handful of nukes and how I would verbally threaten the English "racists" and "imperialists" around me with total physical annihilation for "threatening my country's sovereignty", despite not liking the CCP one bit.

It was China's diplomatic collaboration with Russia over the Syrian Civil War and especially China's increasingly repressive crackdown on my hometown that has turned me completely against China in recent years, so much so that, like many Hong Kongers and Taiwanese, I hesitate to identify or introduce myself as "Chinese" until the CCP is overthrown, because the CCP is a huge source of personal shame for me as an overseas Chinese. The key difference between me and IM is that his pro-CCP views mean that he can post freely in Hong Kong with relative impunity, whereas I wouldn't even post at all if I was in Hong Kong. Not on this thread and not on this nation, at least. Nonetheless, I suspect we have a lot in common and I don't like it one bit.

How we came to hold such diametrically opposed views on the CCP and the Hong Kong protests despite our alleged similarities is something I struggle to fathom. What did his international schools teach him that mine didn't? Do pro-CCP international schools even exist? Something along the lines of Confucius "Peace" Institute-affiliated schools that operate in countries like Australia and the United States? Branding, perhaps? Sleek-looking websites, photos of modern-looking Chinese skyscrapers and transportation systems and videos of commentators extolling the virtues of one-party rule in perfect English while modern Chinese pop music plays in the background can really sway someone who doesn't know any better. Living in a country that doesn't look or feel as advanced as the country being advertised can also play a huge role in the indoctrination process, particularly in developing countries like mine. Overseas Chinese seem to be particularly susceptible, especially if they are racially discriminated against by unfriendly natives. Singapore is a notable exception due to its high degree of prosperity accompanied by mildly authoritarian de facto one-party rule.

Even ostensibly wealthy democracies such as Canada and the United States are far from immune. When I first moved to the UK for further studies, I was struck by just how old, rickety, dangerous, chaotic and "backward" London was, and just how unreliable the Tube network was, compared to the flawless efficiency, relative safety, economic and technological advancement and orderliness of Hong Kong and its extensive MTR subway system, not to mention that Hong Kong serves the best food in the world, second only to none. When I was in high school, Hong Kong was ranked the safest place in the world. Compare Hong Kong to any major Western city and tell me which is more advanced. And that's just the wealthy cities alone. Visit the failing, rural working-class townships in the countryside that voted for Trump and Boris and the contrast is even more pronounced, at least if you watch CGTN and avoid the Chinese countryside, where the CCP's false narrative of unstoppable economic progress and endless wealth creation (their narrow interpretation of "human rights") rapidly breaks down.

Bearing all of this in mind, the problem of pro-CCP indoctrination runs very far and very deep. A family member once told me that many of those who are extremely supportive of the CCP have never been to China and don't even speak Chinese, including many English-educated overseas Chinese like myself. How is this the case, and why, then, am I and IM on opposite sides? I. Just. Don't Get. It.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Geng gave no proof at all. Just because his position agrees with yours does not mean that either of you are right, it just means that you both subscribe to the same bullshit.


This is getting fucking pathetic, you are painting a human rights advocate as a terrorist. Absolute desperation on your part, picking at straws to justify what was done, even though there isn't the slightest bit of evidence to back up what you or Geng are saying.

Mind you, you also labelled Amnesty a "hate group", so this latest nonsense should not be surprising. But the real ironic thing is that you are accusing a human rights guy of promoting violence on no basis whatsoever, when there is evidence that you yourself have advocated using military force such as tanks etc against demonstrators.

he's stated there is plenty of evidence for the wrongful activities of the NGO headed by Kenneth

he represents the PRC when he says this

If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right. Napoleon is always right.

- Animal Farm, George Orwell

...without giving any evidence whatsoever.

the government will fully disclose the evidence at a future more opportune time

however, I am not surprised at all. I always these NGOs were extensions of western policy.

There is no evidence that God exists that hasn't been thoroughly disproved by skeptics. Yet. We'll just have to wait a little longer. God will reveal himself eventually and the Day of Judgment will come and all those wicked heathens and infidels will burn for eternity and we'll be proven absolutely right about everything. The Bible says so and the Bible is infallible. We just need to have faith.

The CCP is literally a religious cult at this point.

[Tuthina]

The odds are low, considering that they cite English sources exclusively, with no reference to any notable news that I know that doesn't get an English report.

Personally, I'm still quite suspicious of IM's status as someone being in Hong Kong, both due to IM's somewhat slow reception and reporting on local news (which, admittedly, might also be due to the aforementioned English-exclusive sourcing) and that they also post in odd hours - the past few pages where they post is most is in the dead of the night in Hong Kong.

I hate to defend IM, but to be fair, I also post during odd hours when I ought to be sleeping. It's a bad habit I haven't been able to overcome to my own detriment because reasons. The country I currently reside in is in the same time zone as Hong Kong. I'm also not fluent in Mandarin or Cantonese despite having been born and raised in Hong Kong and being ethnically Chinese. International schools tend to have that effect on expat kids. Maybe, like me, IM also has a poor sleep routine, plays online games with players on the other side of the world on a U.S.-based server/surfs the web all night long, and doesn't speak Mandarin or Cantonese very well if at all, and he has stated that, like me, he has attended international schools in the region.

Alright, that's a fair point. I guess I might have been overly sceptical. Still, it feels a bit ironic for IM to say that an "outsider" like Kenneth Roth has no business being in Hong Kong. Granted, it's also part of our fault that we tend to focus our reports and news exclusively on Cantonese (and often Mandarin, due to how we write Chinese) while leaving non-Cantonese speakers in the cold.

Still, you probably should improve upon your sleep routine.

Reading through his posts, he refers to China as "his" country and mentions relatives who voted KMT in the recent Taiwanese election, indicating that he may be ethnically Han Chinese at the very least. I used to regard China as "my" country for purely cultural and ethnic reasons despite never having been a HK or Chinese citizen in my life (birthright citizenship (thankfully for me) doesn't exist in HK), as have many Hong Kongers until recently. For this reason alone, I used to defend China's alleged historic claims to Tibet and Taiwan when I was younger and more "woke", and considered myself pro-China but anti-CCP. When the 2008 Tibet unrest broke out and Western protesters were chanting "Free Tibet", I was so far down the rabbit hole that I fantasized about how China could totally wipe Britain off the map with a handful of nukes and how I would verbally threaten the English "racists" and "imperialists" around me with total physical annihilation for "threatening my country's sovereignty", despite not liking the CCP one bit.

It was China's diplomatic collaboration with Russia over the Syrian Civil War and especially China's increasingly repressive crackdown on my hometown that has turned me completely against China in recent years, so much so that, like many Hong Kongers and Taiwanese, I hesitate to identify or introduce myself as "Chinese" until the CCP is overthrown, because the CCP is a huge source of personal shame for me as an overseas Chinese. The key difference between me and IM is that his pro-CCP views mean that he can post freely in Hong Kong with relative impunity, whereas I wouldn't even post at all if I was in Hong Kong. Not on this thread and not on this nation, at least. Nonetheless, I suspect we have a lot in common and I don't like it one bit.

How we came to hold such diametrically opposed views on the CCP and the Hong Kong protests despite our alleged similarities is something I struggle to fathom. What did his international schools teach him that mine didn't? Do pro-CCP international schools even exist? Something along the lines of Confucius "Peace" Institute-affiliated schools that operate in countries like Australia and the United States? Branding, perhaps? Sleek-looking websites, photos of modern-looking Chinese skyscrapers and transportation systems and videos of commentators extolling the virtues of one-party rule in perfect English while modern Chinese pop music plays in the background can really sway someone who doesn't know any better. Living in a country that doesn't look or feel as advanced as the country being advertised can also play a huge role in the indoctrination process, particularly in developing countries like mine. Overseas Chinese seem to be particularly susceptible, especially if they are racially discriminated against by unfriendly natives. Singapore is a notable exception due to its high degree of prosperity accompanied by mildly authoritarian de facto one-party rule.

Even ostensibly wealthy democracies such as Canada and the United States are far from immune. When I first moved to the UK for further studies, I was struck by just how old, rickety, dangerous, chaotic and "backward" London was, and just how unreliable the Tube network was, compared to the flawless efficiency, relative safety, economic and technological advancement and orderliness of Hong Kong and its extensive MTR subway system, not to mention that Hong Kong serves the best food in the world, second only to none. When I was in high school, Hong Kong was ranked the safest place in the world. Compare Hong Kong to any major Western city and tell me which is more advanced. And that's just the wealthy cities alone. Visit the failing, rural working-class townships in the countryside that voted for Trump and Boris and the contrast is even more pronounced, at least if you watch CGTN and avoid the Chinese countryside, where the CCP's false narrative of unstoppable economic progress and endless wealth creation (their narrow interpretation of "human rights") rapidly breaks down.

Bearing all of this in mind, the problem of pro-CCP indoctrination runs very far and very deep. A family member once told me that many of those who are extremely supportive of the CCP have never been to China and don't even speak Chinese, including many English-educated overseas Chinese like myself. How is this the case, and why, then, am I and IM on opposite sides? I. Just. Don't Get. It.

To be fair, pan-Chinese nationalism has long been a prominent ideology in the Sinosphere (for a lack of better terms), with its modern roots digging deep into the "century of humiliation" where China became the laughing stock and exploitation by many colonial empires (which is pretty screwed up, I reckon), and both CCP and KMT being originally founded by intellects who decry such treatment and believe that a strong and unified China will be the thing that keeps that from happening. Even with the internationalist leaning of communism, CCP (and the more communist part of KMT) nonetheless has a very strong nationalist ideal, especially after PRC's reform pretty much ditched communism in all but name.

As such, in the hand of despots, it tend to foster a view that "China is always right", that often lead to people's mind, even those who are otherwise quite rational and nice, being shut down when things threatening the imagined community is brought up. Like, it's not uncommon to see mainlanders complaining about the state of their country, but they will nonetheless rally under the flawed government against outside threats, whether real or imaginary. That is probably why once PRC can no longer suppress the news of Hong Kong's protests, it starts framing it as advocating for an independent and Western Hong Kong, which pretty much eliminates any possible discussion on the issue - you have to be against it, or else, even if you actually agree to the five demands.

That's why I'm leaning more and more towards the dismantlement of CCP, if not China as a whole. As long as such toxic ideology continues to dominate the government and the general population, even a hypothetically democratic China would not be a nice place to deal with as "separatist places" like Hong Kong and Taiwan. I mean, even after three decades of liberal democracy, there are still significant support for KMT in Taiwan and Han Guo-yu, the latter representing the more pro-China portion of KMT. For people, especially Chinese expats who likely found themselves alienated from the rest of the society for their heritage, the (seeming) inclusiveness of pan-Chinese nationalism and the associated jingoism can be quite appealing - you will be "one of us", and a strong China will be able to defeat anyone who see you as outsider. Of course, it does not spark joy when you become said outsider or, worse, a "race traitor" when you question the one framing themselves as "China", even if you mean no harm to that imagined community. In fact, it might be even worse for you, because odds are you'll be less defended than those who supposedly DO have the will and means to harm China.