Hong Kong II - Ragnarök

[New haven america]

That's weird, I seem to recall I'm promising to never again post in threads relating to Hong Kong.

And now he is in a thread relating to Hong Kong. Why is he in a thread relating to Hong Kong?

[New Paine]

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

Do you think that the protests will hurt or help the pro-Democracy camp in LegCo?

[Pasong Tirad]

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

It's like anything we say just enters one ear and falls right out the other.

[Thermodolia]

Hardly a word salad. You just can’t handle getting called out on being a doomer.


It’s not semantics it’s a fact.


Which would be a small price to pay for the total economic collapse of China. We import more than we export to China. If we halted trade China would collapse while we would just end up with a recession that we could and would bounce back from stronger and more powerful.

You don’t want to do that because that means tighter belts and that would cut into your cushy lifestyle.


Tibet and Vietnam would both like a word with you. Also it’s not a reach. We are in a Cold War with China weather you like it or not. And right now you definitely seem like the type who would have willingly give up the Cold War in the 50’s.


No it’s not. Genocide is genocide no matter how you slice it


Bull fucking shit. You don’t want to do anything else because that would mean less money for gaming. You don’t want to hurt your cushy lifestyle. But that doesn’t mean we need to roll over and die and let the CCP walk all over us.

China is not invading nations and setting up satellite states, so comparing it to the USSR is silly.

So what are they doing in the South China Sea? Or what about Africa where they are literally setting up puppet states by sending those states into debt.

We are in another Cold War and you don’t want to acknowledge that.

No, if we cut of our largest trading partner, we won’t “bounce back stronger than ever”. It will take years to even recover even slightly and when we do, we will be weaker than ever.

No we won’t. The EU is technically our largest trading partner and we trade more with Mexico and Canada combined than with China which really isn’t a partnership and more like a one way street where we buy all there shit.

You’re acting like China has very little influence, weak military, and weak economy, which is untrue.

They only have influence because we have done nothing to stop them, they have a massive conscript Military. Conscripts are known terrible fighters and will rather surrender than die. China definitely has a weak economy. We import close to 505 billion while only exporting 129 billion. If we stopped trading with China they would collapse economically as nobody would be buying their stuff.

If nobody buys your shit you will go broke. That’s how economy’s work. To say that China wouldn’t collapse economically if the west stopped trading with them is either naïve, or buying into CCP propaganda.

And by the way, you may believe you sound more intelligent my acting like a smug asshole, but it does really doesn’t.

None of this has anything to do with intelligence. What it has to do with is the fact that you refuse to believe that China is a threat and you continue to act like nothing can be done.

That leads me to three possibilities either you are super naïve about the situation and don’t understand some things, or your pro-CCP and think that China should be left alone because they’ve done nothing wrong, or you realize that China is a threat but you don’t want any action taken because it could possibly hurt your cushy lifestyle.

I personally think it’s a combination of one and three. We need to realize that nothing is forever and that the PRC can and will fall

[New haven america]

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

It's like anything we say just enters one ear and falls right out the other.

I mean, that goes for things he says as well.

Like him swearing to not talk about Hong Kong anymore.

[Thermodolia]

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

Well you haven’t changed a bit

[Thermodolia]

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

Do you think that the protests will hurt or help the pro-Democracy camp in LegCo?

Well as we’ve seen from local elections definitely help. However the CCP have rigged the elections so that the pro democracy camp can never win

[Heloin]

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

Remember how you said just about every day that the protests would end once they went back to school? You’ve been wrong at every turn, you’ll be wrong again. If you are ever right it’s only a broken clock.

[Heloin]

What is needed is a comprehensive (but fair) crackdown of all the specific protestors who have broken the law and destroyed so much of the local economy through vandalism.

However, we can wait until after Chinese New Year to see how much momentum this movement still has. I believe many people here tire of the street violence and vandalism. It might be possible to simply wait and then make a final round of investigations.

Do you think that the protests will hurt or help the pro-Democracy camp in LegCo?

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

[Albrenia]

Not everyone who supports the protesters would go out and protest either, I suspect. Many would be too scared or otherwise unable to take part, so just counting the people in each protest isn't accurate as the sum total of support they'd have.

Just sayin'.

[Thermodolia]

Do you think that the protests will hurt or help the pro-Democracy camp in LegCo?

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

So I see IM is still banging on about how the protests will stop once school beings

[New haven america]

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

So I see IM is still banging on about how the protests will stop once school beings

As he did when the protests started during the summer.

[New Paine]

Do you think that the protests will hurt or help the pro-Democracy camp in LegCo?

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

Hmm, by his choice of words, it appears he lives in Hong Kong? Am I right? If I’m right, perhaps he is concern about his safety....

[Thermodolia]

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

Hmm, by his choice of words, it appears he lives in Hong Kong? Am I right? If I’m right, perhaps he is concern about his safety....

IM is an follower of Xi. He thinks Xi can do no wrong. IM is a rich upper class Canadian living in HK. Take everything they say with a grain of salt

[Albrenia]

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

Hmm, by his choice of words, it appears he lives in Hong Kong? Am I right? If I’m right, perhaps he is concern about his safety....

I wouldn't blame someone for doing that, but they seem a bit more passionate about it than simply someone trying not to get disappeared.

[The Free Joy State]

Send the police officers who have destroyed Hong Kong to jail. Remove all members of the LegCo who aren’t elected by the people of Hong Kong. Have free fair elections for the people of Hong Kong. Leave China or have China guarantee true regional autonomy that’s enforced by a third party. Those are the points China will never accept, but those are the only way Hong Kong will see true peace outside of the death of the city and the people who live there.

These are steps that need to be taken, but I'm not sure how optimistic I am that they ever will be.

I hope for a good resolution for Hong Kong, and keep the slight hope that international pressure will force the PRC to change, ratify the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights that it signed in 1998 and abide by it (and also abide by the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, which it has ratified -- and which also recognises that "all people have a right to self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.").

But, I don't know that I consider that likely.

I agree with Heloin's (IIRC) earlier assessment that, whatever the outcome, Hong Kong is never likely to be the same again.

[Heloin]

So I see IM is still banging on about how the protests will stop once school beings

As he did when the protests started during the summer.

This the cycle continues. It is the way of things.

[Pasong Tirad]

Not everyone who supports the protesters would go out and protest either, I suspect. Many would be too scared or otherwise unable to take part, so just counting the people in each protest isn't accurate as the sum total of support they'd have.

Just sayin'.

Try telling IM that. Any sign of lower protester numbers is a sign that the movement is weakening. Any sign that they're getting bigger or, say, massively winning an election, is just a fluke.

[Thermodolia]

Not everyone who supports the protesters would go out and protest either, I suspect. Many would be too scared or otherwise unable to take part, so just counting the people in each protest isn't accurate as the sum total of support they'd have.

Just sayin'.

Try telling IM that. Any sign of lower protester numbers is a sign that the movement is weakening. Any sign that they're getting bigger or, say, massively winning an election, is just a fluke.

IM should really get a job as a CCP propagandist

[Gormwood]

Try telling IM that. Any sign of lower protester numbers is a sign that the movement is weakening. Any sign that they're getting bigger or, say, massively winning an election, is just a fluke.

IM should really get a job as a CCP propagandist

Pfft. He's doing it for free right now.

[The Free Joy State]

Try telling IM that. Any sign of lower protester numbers is a sign that the movement is weakening. Any sign that they're getting bigger or, say, massively winning an election, is just a fluke.

IM should really get a job as a CCP propagandist

Successful propaganda is supposed to be vaguely believable...

That said, let's not turn our shiny, new thread into an IM thread.

So, focusing on the Hong Kong protests: Hong Kong police clashed with protesters rallying in support of the Uighurs:

Earlier in the afternoon, more than 1,000 people had attended a peaceful rally, waving Uighur flags and posters as they took part in the latest demonstration in more than six months of unrest.

A mixed crowd of young and older people, dressed in black and wearing masks to hide their identities, held up signs reading: “Free Uyghur, Free Hong Kong” and “Fake ‘autonomy’ in China results in genocide”.
[...]

“I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong,” said a 41-year-old woman surnamed Wong, who attended the protest with her husband.

United Nations experts and activists say at least 1 million Uighurs and members of other largely Muslim minority groups have been detained in camps in Xinjiang since 2017 under a campaign that has been condemned by the US and other countries.

Beijing says it is providing vocational training to help stamp out separatism and to teach new skills. It denies any mistreatment of Uighurs.

Protests in Hong Kong are in their seventh month, albeit in a relative year-end lull. Many residents are angry at what they see as Chinese meddling in the freedoms promised to the former British colony when it returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

China denies interfering and says it is committed to the “one country, two systems” formula put in place at that time and has blamed foreign forces for fomenting unrest.

On Saturday, Hong Kong riot police swept into several shopping centres, chasing off and arresting demonstrators pressing their demands in the peak shopping weekend before Christmas.

The police’s heavy-handed clampdown on demonstrations and frequent use of teargas have incensed many protesters, whose demands include full democracy and an independent investigation into perceived police brutality.

I like what the 41-year-old protestor said: "I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong."

Basic freedom. Human dignity and rights. That's all people want. That's all most anybody wants.

[Infected Mushroom]

He thinks there is no support for the protesters and doesn’t like that the PLA haven’t stormed tanks through the city yet.

Hmm, by his choice of words, it appears he lives in Hong Kong? Am I right? If I’m right, perhaps he is concern about his safety....

I do live here. And I do have concerns about safety. I had a number of close run ins with the black shirts.

It’s very uplifting to me that the chaos in the streets have been dying down and things seem to be calming.

[Infected Mushroom]

IM should really get a job as a CCP propagandist

Successful propaganda is supposed to be vaguely believable...

That said, let's not turn our shiny, new thread into an IM thread.

So, focusing on the Hong Kong protests: Hong Kong police clashed with protesters rallying in support of the Uighurs:

Earlier in the afternoon, more than 1,000 people had attended a peaceful rally, waving Uighur flags and posters as they took part in the latest demonstration in more than six months of unrest.

A mixed crowd of young and older people, dressed in black and wearing masks to hide their identities, held up signs reading: “Free Uyghur, Free Hong Kong” and “Fake ‘autonomy’ in China results in genocide”.
[...]

“I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong,” said a 41-year-old woman surnamed Wong, who attended the protest with her husband.

United Nations experts and activists say at least 1 million Uighurs and members of other largely Muslim minority groups have been detained in camps in Xinjiang since 2017 under a campaign that has been condemned by the US and other countries.

Beijing says it is providing vocational training to help stamp out separatism and to teach new skills. It denies any mistreatment of Uighurs.

Protests in Hong Kong are in their seventh month, albeit in a relative year-end lull. Many residents are angry at what they see as Chinese meddling in the freedoms promised to the former British colony when it returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

China denies interfering and says it is committed to the “one country, two systems” formula put in place at that time and has blamed foreign forces for fomenting unrest.

On Saturday, Hong Kong riot police swept into several shopping centres, chasing off and arresting demonstrators pressing their demands in the peak shopping weekend before Christmas.

The police’s heavy-handed clampdown on demonstrations and frequent use of teargas have incensed many protesters, whose demands include full democracy and an independent investigation into perceived police brutality.

I like what the 41-year-old protestor said: "I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong."

Basic freedom. Human dignity and rights. That's all people want. That's all most anybody wants.

This is not the case. The demands of the protestors are far in excess of this. Specifically, the demand that all protestors (regardless of rioting behavior in a case by case basis) be pardoned is basically calling for vandalism and attacking of the police and shops to be condoned if a big enough crowd dies it.

Also, the protestors demand political power in that they insist on a specific CE stepping down. There’s nothing “basic” about it.

...

If the protests were really about human dignity and rights then they wouldn’t have caused all this destruction in the city. In doing so, and destroying tons of business, the movement shows a reckless disregard and double standard.

[Infected Mushroom]

Hmm, by his choice of words, it appears he lives in Hong Kong? Am I right? If I’m right, perhaps he is concern about his safety....

I wouldn't blame someone for doing that, but they seem a bit more passionate about it than simply someone trying not to get disappeared.

Of course I’m passionate. I have literally watched angry mobs lay waste to this city, to my very neighborhood.

That sort of thing impacts your POV.

[Heloin]

Successful propaganda is supposed to be vaguely believable...

That said, let's not turn our shiny, new thread into an IM thread.

So, focusing on the Hong Kong protests: Hong Kong police clashed with protesters rallying in support of the Uighurs:

Earlier in the afternoon, more than 1,000 people had attended a peaceful rally, waving Uighur flags and posters as they took part in the latest demonstration in more than six months of unrest.

A mixed crowd of young and older people, dressed in black and wearing masks to hide their identities, held up signs reading: “Free Uyghur, Free Hong Kong” and “Fake ‘autonomy’ in China results in genocide”.
[...]

“I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong,” said a 41-year-old woman surnamed Wong, who attended the protest with her husband.

United Nations experts and activists say at least 1 million Uighurs and members of other largely Muslim minority groups have been detained in camps in Xinjiang since 2017 under a campaign that has been condemned by the US and other countries.

Beijing says it is providing vocational training to help stamp out separatism and to teach new skills. It denies any mistreatment of Uighurs.

Protests in Hong Kong are in their seventh month, albeit in a relative year-end lull. Many residents are angry at what they see as Chinese meddling in the freedoms promised to the former British colony when it returned to Chinese rule in 1997.

China denies interfering and says it is committed to the “one country, two systems” formula put in place at that time and has blamed foreign forces for fomenting unrest.

On Saturday, Hong Kong riot police swept into several shopping centres, chasing off and arresting demonstrators pressing their demands in the peak shopping weekend before Christmas.

The police’s heavy-handed clampdown on demonstrations and frequent use of teargas have incensed many protesters, whose demands include full democracy and an independent investigation into perceived police brutality.

I like what the 41-year-old protestor said: "I think basic freedom and independence should exist for all people, not just for Hong Kong."

Basic freedom. Human dignity and rights. That's all people want. That's all most anybody wants.

This is not the case. The demands of the protestors are far in excess of this. Specifically, the demand that all protestors (regardless of rioting behavior in a case by case basis) be pardoned is basically calling for vandalism and attacking of the police and shops to be condoned if a big enough crowd dies it.

Also, the protestors demand political power in that they insist on a specific CE stepping down. There’s nothing “basic” about it.

Those are extremely lenient demands all things considered.

If the protests were really about human dignity and rights then they wouldn’t have caused all this destruction in the city. In doing so, and destroying tons of business, the movement shows a reckless disregard and double standard.

They are willing to fight for their rights and dignity, that’s honourable. You’re trying your best and failing to portray them otherwise.