Fat Man on a Bridge

[Ifreann]

Y'know, I've always wanted to ask the following when faced with "trolley dilemma" style conundrums: is sacrificing myself an option? To save the five people without sacrificing the life of the other person. Sacrifice myself instead. Is that allowed?

lol why would you do that?

To escape the philosophical simulation you've found yourself trapped within.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Yes they do, those that don't are lying and are not real bridges.

No, they don't.

Find me a real bridge that does not.

[Fartsniffage]

Lol think of yourself before randomers you don't know, basic self-preservation.

Human beings have also been known to sacrifice themselves when necessary.

But that scene in Captain America really pissed me off. Skinny Steve had plenty of time to boot the grenade back at the mental Colonel who was tossing explosives around during PT...

[Andsed]

Nah. I prefer to put others before myself.

Why would you do that?

I have been helped a lot in my life and I want to be able to help others as well? You seemed shocked that not everyone is only concerned with themselves.

[Fartsniffage]

that wouldnt work

The question is, trappings (such as the trolley) aside, about whether ending one life is acceptable to save five. Why can't that life be my own instead of the other person's?

No. Because part of the quandary is how you justify your decision to yourself afterwards.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

lol why would you do that?

To escape the philosophical simulation you've found yourself trapped within.

Yeah, they can get near-suicidally boring I grant you. Especially when held at 'ice-breaker' events.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why would you do that?

I have been helped a lot in my life and I want to be able to help others as well? You seemed shocked that not everyone is only concerned with themselves.

Not 'concerned with,' but I wouldn't throw myself in front of a moving train for somebody. That's just a way of making sure you get turned into shami kebab

[Nuroblav]

Y'know, I've always wanted to ask the following when faced with "trolley dilemma" style conundrums: is sacrificing myself an option? To save the five people without sacrificing the life of the other person. Sacrifice myself instead. Is that allowed?

You could try, that's if your fat enough to be able to stop a train.

Then again, it may not necessarily be the case that you would have to stop the train with your own weight. Depending on the speed of the train, the simple presence of something could press the train to stop. This doesn't change the hypothetical much though, as it still involves sacrifice of life. If it were a faster train though, it probably wouldn't slow down in time so in that case something heavier would be best.

So you could sacrifice yourself if you were large enough

[Fartsniffage]

To escape the philosophical simulation you've found yourself trapped within.

Yeah, they can get near-suicidally boring I grant you. Especially when held at 'ice-breaker' events.

I wasn't present but heard reliable reports that during a "who escapes the cave" conversation at a training course the clock hit lunch time and one of the guys just stood up and said "Lunchtime. The black guy gets it" and walked out.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Yeah, they can get near-suicidally boring I grant you. Especially when held at 'ice-breaker' events.

I wasn't present but heard reliable reports that during a "who escapes the cave" conversation at a training course the clock hit lunch time and one of the guys just stood up and said "Lunchtime. The black guy gets it" and walked out.

The worst are the 'who goes on the titanic lifeboat' ones.

[Fartsniffage]

I wasn't present but heard reliable reports that during a "who escapes the cave" conversation at a training course the clock hit lunch time and one of the guys just stood up and said "Lunchtime. The black guy gets it" and walked out.

The worst are the 'who goes on the titanic lifeboat' ones.

Same thing just in a different place.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The worst are the 'who goes on the titanic lifeboat' ones.

Same thing just in a different place.

My group let all the children die. All of them. We saved the rich heiress and the stock market trader though.

[The New California Republic]

No, they don't.

Find me a real bridge that does not.

My fucking god. Get out and look. Lots of bridges are on the level and do not require one to go up to them.

[Galloism]

Find me a real bridge that does not.

My fucking god. Get out and look. Lots of bridges are on the level and do not require one to go up to them.

Those are just short tunnels.

[Nuroblav]

Find me a real bridge that does not.

My fucking god. Get out and look. Lots of bridges are on the level and do not require one to go up to them.

That's pretty much what I had in mind when you mentioned bridges where you didn't go up.

[Phria]

Y'know, I've always wanted to ask the following when faced with "trolley dilemma" style conundrums: is sacrificing myself an option? To save the five people without sacrificing the life of the other person. Sacrifice myself instead. Is that allowed?

This would totally nullify the heart of the dilemma. It's all about deontology vs utilitarianism, and sacrificing yourself would lift the responsibility of actually choosing one or the other from your shoulders, since you can assign any moral value you want to yourself, because it is your own self after all.

In my opinion we need to look at both variations of the problem. In the classic trolley dilemma, pulling the switch means altering the course of the train, thereby using the other railtrack to save the 5 people. The presence of the eventual victim on the railtrack then is a mere unfortunate coincidence. We are not using him, we are using the spare railtrack.

In the bridge variation, we explicitly sacrifice the fat man, having concluded that his life is definitely worth less than the 5 lives we want to save, and he has no right to complain or determine his own personal course of action. Therefore the question arises: should we be utilitarians, arguing that since 5>1, the fat man has to die, or will we take the deontological approach, declaring that sacrificing someone against their will is off limits, no matter the cause?

Personally, I would pull the switch in the first dilemma, but would not push the man in the second one, since I would prefer to live in a world where being the fat man myself wouldn't ethically deny me the right to live.

(Edit: grammar)

[South Acren]

If the people are standing on the tracks, then logically a simple yell of "watch out" or the kind will do the trick. However if I must pick, the fat man would unfortunately have to be pushed, as 5 is greater then 1. HOWEVER, and maybe im overthinking this feel free to tell me so, if they are willingly standing on the tracks, wanting to be hit, i wont push someone to save the lives of those who seek an easy way out. Its not fair to the man if they just go and end their lives later on. So i guess depending on the scenario id pick either....which is really confusing.

[Thermodolia]

If the man is so fat he can stop a train, I doubt I'll have the strength to move him.

I wonder what that damn bridge is made of

[Baltenstein]

Lol think of yourself before randomers you don't know, basic self-preservation.

Nah. I prefer to put others before myself.

Smart idea, they might shield you from incoming trains.

[Andsed]

If the man is so fat he can stop a train, I doubt I'll have the strength to move him.

I wonder what that damn bridge is made of

Also if I am strong enough to push him why can I not just pull a Superman and stop the train with my bare hands?

Nah. I prefer to put others before myself.

Smart idea, they might shield you from incoming trains.

Well played.

[Fartsniffage]

If the man is so fat he can stop a train, I doubt I'll have the strength to move him.

I wonder what that damn bridge is made of

It's fat men all the way down Thermy.

[Gormwood]

Any train that can be stopped with the body of an obese individual is rather unlikely to injure, much less kill 5 people unlee unless they were tied down to the tracks.

[Autumn Wind]

If the man is so fat he can stop a train, I doubt I'll have the strength to move him.

I wonder what that damn bridge is made of

And why does it have to be a fat guy instead of, say, an extraordinarily dense skinny guy? Perhaps the OP is subtly implying that people are less inclined towards empathy regarding obese people.

[Novus America]

Moral of the story. Do not stand on train tracks.
If people would stop standing on damn train tracks I would not have to deal with this shit.

[Nuroblav]

I wonder what that damn bridge is made of

And why does it have to be a fat guy instead of, say, an extraordinarily dense skinny guy? Perhaps the OP is subtly implying that people are less inclined towards empathy regarding obese people.

No it's just that the original dilemma happens to use a fat man. Don't blame me - blame the guy that create the bloody hypothetical