To Die Free or Live a Slave

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

"It is better to die free than live as a slave."

This has been a personal motto of mine for a few years now as I think it perfectly sums up my personal views. Now I'm not taking credit for coming up with it; it's probably been said a trillion times throughout human history, across all languages. Maybe not phrased the same way but with the overall same meaning intended. Maybe even in this exact form, word-for-word. But when it comes down to it, when I think really hard about it, I believe that it is truly better to die a free Man than live a life of slavery. I truly, with every fiber of my being, believe that DEATH is preferable to a life of indentured servitude. And when i say slavery, I mean real slavery. Not "wuuuh my boss is a tyrant!". I mean the kind of slavery this great nation of mine fought an insurgency against to bring an end to; an immoral, evil practice that even Fascists recoil in disgust at. Something so vile, so barbaric, and so inhumane that I dare say it is a face worse than death - as I've made it clear I believe. All Men are born free and, in my belief, endowed by the grace of God with the right to live freely. Any individual, organization, government, etc. that would seek to strip a human being of this right is fundamentally, wholly, and totally evil in my view and must be either dissuaded from this view or utterly annihilated in order to protect the freedom inherent in human beings. It is my belief that a life that cannot be lived freely is not a life worth living; that a life of slavery is not a life at all.

But that's neither here nor there. My view is clear and rather obvious by the first sentence alone. What I would like to know now is what YOU think, NSG? Do you agree that it is better to die free than live a slave? When push comes to shove, when the collar is around your neck and the chains around your wrists and ankles, when you are denied the ability to act and think freely, when you become the literal property of another against your will and are unable to escape this arrangement, when you are told to obey without question and are punished should you fail... is it worth it to go on? To continue living? Is enslavement a life worth living? Is the hope - the chance, no matter how slim - that you can one day be free again worth trudging through the torture, the pain, the suffering?

I ask ye, NSG: is it better to die free than live as a slave?

[Autumn Wind]

Depends on the definition of slavery, I guess. Also depends on the odds of later rebellion/emancipation. It would be silly to get my family killed if there are viable alternatives which enable us to endure or avoid the worst of a temporary position.

[Cannot think of a name]

Capt. Nately : You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

Old man in whorehouse : You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.

Capt. Nately : How do you know?

Old man in whorehouse : Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?

Capt. Nately : I'll be 20 in January.

Old man in whorehouse : If you live.

[Ferretslavia]

There is literally nothing wrong with slavery.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What is freedom?

[Bombadil]

What is freedom?

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

[Galloism]

What is freedom?

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

Tbh, after getting involved in customer analytics and forecasting, I am starting to have serious doubts about the whole "free will" thing.

You have no idea what can be done.

[Bombadil]

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

Tbh, after getting involved in customer analytics and forecasting, I am starting to have serious doubts about the whole "free will" thing.

You have no idea what can be done.

I do, given that's my specific field, however education is therefore a large part of freedom. You aren't making free decisions unless you're educated as to what they're about.

[Galloism]

Tbh, after getting involved in customer analytics and forecasting, I am starting to have serious doubts about the whole "free will" thing.

You have no idea what can be done.

I do, given that's my specific field.

Ah, then you understand.

[Neu California]

There is literally nothing wrong with slavery.

Not sure if serious

[Bombadil]

I do, given that's my specific field.

Ah, then you understand.

I guess the most famous article on this is How Target Know Your Daughter Is Pregnant Before You Do - however it does make me laugh sometimes how people think they're so in control of themselves, that their decisions aren't influenced - even a change in phrasing can make people respond differently to questions.

You have to admit it first before you're equipped to at least partially manage it.

[Galloism]

Ah, then you understand.

I guess the most famous article on this is How Target Know Your Daughter Is Pregnant Before You Do - however it does make me laugh sometimes how people think they're so in control of themselves, that their decisions aren't influenced - even a change in phrasing can make people respond differently to questions.

You have to admit it first before you're equipped to at least partially manage it.

I'm not convinced it can be managed in the truest sense. Mitigated, maybe, to an extent. But managed?

I think it's simply a matter of data.

We're small time and we can typically target customer behavior within 1.5% with specific phrasing leading to specific actions. Google has way way more data than we do. They must be better at it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What is freedom?

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

Then we never possess it.

[Bombadil]

I guess the most famous article on this is How Target Know Your Daughter Is Pregnant Before You Do - however it does make me laugh sometimes how people think they're so in control of themselves, that their decisions aren't influenced - even a change in phrasing can make people respond differently to questions.

You have to admit it first before you're equipped to at least partially manage it.

I'm not convinced it can be managed in the truest sense. Mitigated, maybe, to an extent. But managed?

I think it's simply a matter of data.

We're small time and we can typically target customer behavior within 1.5% with specific phrasing leading to specific actions. Google has way way more data than we do. They must be better at it.

I've made pretty conscious decisions to de-consumer myself - though one might argue there's influences I don't understand that cause me to think that way.. - but, for example..

I live on a small island with no cars
I take public transport pretty much always unless Im walking - I'm averaging 12K steps this year
I buy from local markets not supermarkets where possible - washing powder for example is tough to source locally
I don't eat meat
I use very little electricity - I should go solar next year
I have no cable TV.. honestly mostly I use Youtube - and certainly one could say it algorithms me to content but I'm pretty settled in what I watch
I have my own company, so I get to make my own decisions and don't have to subscribe to hypocritical values - for example my last company wanted me to sign a non-disclosure form about a manager who was asked to resign, not fired, for multiple counts of sexual aggression to female employees.. and this from a company ostensibly all about equality..
My main hobby is windsurfing, which has very little impact or cost beyond equipment, which I tend to receive second hand
I've cut flying..

So it is, I think, possible to manage at least though..

I'm locked in the Apple ecosystem frankly.. whatever.. I haven't upgraded from iPhone 7 yet and my laptop is '14..

All these are conscious decisions to essentially free myself from undue influence.. to be honest I even read FOX news each day just so I'm not uncoupled from views opposite mine.

I think I'm Jesus now I think about it..

[Bombadil]

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

Then we never possess it.

Course we do, not 100% but we have influence over the direction of our lives, just many don't use it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Then we never possess it.

Course we do, not 100% but we have influence over the direction of our lives, just many don't use it.

Disagree.

[UniversalCommons]

You can be both a slave and a master at the same time. There is no contradiction. There were plenty of bureaucratic slaves, mamluks and court eunuchs were a prime example of this. Slavery is about control. Some people cannot live without control or being controlled. They need structure and cannot imagine what freedom is. Freedom is quite terrifying to a lot of people. Slaves must have masters. Slavery cannot exist without masters. It is a dependent relationship. No person can be completely free who keeps slaves. I would be a slave if I could free other people, many other people.

[Bombadil]

Course we do, not 100% but we have influence over the direction of our lives, just many don't use it.

Disagree.

Well you just chose to disagree that will entrench your lack of effort to do anything worthwhile.

Congrats.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

I don't know. If I could practice my faith and retain some sort of dignity, I might live as a slave. On the other hand, if deprived of religion and dignity (being forced to be an atheistic sex slave for example), I'd certainly rather die free.

[Czechostan]

What is freedom?

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

For some, that would be the opposite of freedom.

Look at this way. Are sheep free when they are allowed to wander through the hills, or are they free when they are inside a fenced pasture, not having to worry about being attacked by predators?

[Bombadil]

The ability to make choices that determine your life.

For some, that would be the opposite of freedom.

Look at this way. Are sheep free when they are allowed to wander through the hills, or are they free when they are inside a fenced pasture, not having to worry about being attacked by predators?

They're not really making choices exactly.. but I don't know.. if sheep could talk and I said you can live for as long as you can manage unbounded or you can live perfectly safe until I shortly eat you.. dunno..

Still, it's the 'choice' aspect that makes a difference.

Interestingly there's a book called, I think, just Free - but it explores the concept as related to language because, I think, it's essentially only English that has the same word for 'without cost' and 'liberated', and apparently that comes with social assumptions.

I will say the concept of freedom is especially pertinent to me lately so I've been thinking about it a lot..

[United Muscovite Nations]

Disagree.

Well you just chose to disagree that will entrench your lack of effort to do anything worthwhile.

Congrats.

I have made a great deal of effort, it does nothing. Some of us are people to whom things happen, and that is all.

[Czechostan]

They're not really making choices exactly.. but I don't know.. if sheep could talk and I said you can live for as long as you can manage unbounded or you can live perfectly safe until I shortly eat you.. dunno..

There's choice there. The choice of movement. Without the fences, they can choose where to go, but inside the fence, they're denied that choice.

Interestingly there's a book called, I think, just Free - but it explores the concept as related to language because, I think, it's essentially only English that has the same word for 'without cost' and 'liberated', and apparently that comes with social assumptions.

Interesting. I don't doubt that. "Freedom" is definitely a product of social conventions.

[Bombadil]

They're not really making choices exactly.. but I don't know.. if sheep could talk and I said you can live for as long as you can manage unbounded or you can live perfectly safe until I shortly eat you.. dunno..

There's choice there. The choice of movement. Without the fences, they can choose where to go, but inside the fence, they're denied that choice.

Interestingly there's a book called, I think, just Free - but it explores the concept as related to language because, I think, it's essentially only English that has the same word for 'without cost' and 'liberated', and apparently that comes with social assumptions.

Interesting. I don't doubt that. "Freedom" is definitely a product of social conventions.

Personally I try to live by the mantra that any choice needs to result in maximising my choices - which takes quite a lot of thought. For example I don't eat meat.. one could say that limits my choice but given the impact meat has in production and consumption then ultimately I feel it contributes to a world overall in which my choices are better, i.e. a cleaner environment and etc.,

So I might happily argue that in being free from the risk of predators and disease then the sheep does have better choice within the fences on many other parameters other than freedom of movement.

One assumption with combining the meanings into one word is the sense that 'free' means without sacrifice, i.e. I pay nothing.. whereas attaining liberty can cost a lot.

[Czechostan]

Personally I try to live by the mantra that any choice needs to result in maximising my choices - which takes quite a lot of thought. For example I don't eat meat.. one could say that limits my choice but given the impact meat has in production and consumption then ultimately I feel it contributes to a world overall in which my choices are better, i.e. a cleaner environment and etc.,

It's nice to have a lot of choices, but often all of the choices I get seem pretty bad. Sometimes all the choices are awful and there's only a few. It matters to me most that there's a good choice. But how we arrive at having the opportunity to make a good choice, I don't know.

One assumption with combining the meanings into one word is the sense that 'free' means without sacrifice, i.e. I pay nothing.. whereas attaining liberty can cost a lot.

As a true blue American would say...