Which Turkey Was The Best ?

[Gim]

For some reason, I thought this was a Thanksgiving thread.

[Vistulange]

Ottoman, obviously. Kemal turned Turkey into secular crazies who allow all sorts of sin happen.

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

[Gopnikea]

Ottomas is the best Turkey. It was the most powerful during Ottoman.

[Baltenstein]

I'm undecided between Achaemenid Empire and Latin Empire. Apart from the Byzantine Empire, neither is even "Good", much less "best", and the Byzantine Empire I hate on principle.

Sassanian power, represent?

[Nakena]

Ottoman, obviously. Kemal turned Turkey into secular crazies who allow all sorts of sin happen.

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

Because being in a secular state does brings you supposedly, closer to me: the Harbinger of Sin.

[Kyria]

Nah thats bad. Turkey should return to Tengri and the old Gods of War.

This. 100% this. Though less war and just simply more paganism.

[Saranidia]

Ottoman, obviously. Kemal turned Turkey into secular crazies who allow all sorts of sin happen.

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

[North German Realm]

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

I'm sure the Jews and Christians who lived in the Ottoman Empire would love to hear that they were imagining the oppression they went through for nearly five centuries.

[Saranidia]

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

Suleiman the Magnificent was better to Jews than many in current or Kemalist turkey.

He passed one of the earliest hate speech laws I know of(a decree against the blood libel Jews were subjected to)

[A m e n r i a]

Ottoman, obviously. Kemal turned Turkey into secular crazies who allow all sorts of sin happen.

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

I'm sure the Jews and Christians who lived in the Ottoman Empire would love to hear that they were imagining the oppression they went through for nearly five centuries.

Yes, they were.

[Trinadaed]

Ottoman Empire
Hittites
Achaemenid Empire
Byzantine Empire

[Saranidia]

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

I'm sure the Jews and Christians who lived in the Ottoman Empire would love to hear that they were imagining the oppression they went through for nearly five centuries.

I am talking about Suleiman.
He protected Jews and had a Christian wife but she was younger than him and a former slave so you would probably get snowflakey about it. No offence.

[Baltenstein]

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

Not quite. A religious state might prevent you from ending up in its idea of Hell...

BUT you're still on a one-way trip to one of the other - 10,000 or so, mutually exclusive - ideas of Hell. So you're screwed anyway.

[Saranidia]

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

I'm sure the Jews and Christians who lived in the Ottoman Empire would love to hear that they were imagining the oppression they went through for nearly five centuries.

Which Jews and Christians?
They sound pretty dead

[Vistulange]

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

Hell most likely does not exist. Neither does Heaven, for that matter; or God - and whether they do or do not is of no relevance to me. Again, pray tell, why should I care about something that is non-existent and non-consequential?

Moreover, are you suggesting that I will be liberated from hellish punishment by force, that is, being forced to abide by a religion - every religion - I do not believe in? I can think of several groups in today's world who do precisely that, you see.

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

And as an agnostic, or an atheist, I have absolutely no place in the millet system. I know full well of the millet system, but it provides naught for those who do not believe in a faith, or even, those who do not believe in a monotheistic belief. Were I not an agnostic, but instead a worshiper of idols, I would be without any rights in the Ottoman Empire.

Citizenship, and with it nationalism, for all its faults and flaws, is in my view a far more equalising force in today's world. Maybe not so in the days of multinational empires, but in today's era of the nation-states, certainly far more preferable. Moreover, the examples of national states we have seen give some hope that nation-states can indeed exist with pluralism, a respect for human rights, and inclusiveness; there is hope for nation-states who are not as inclusive and respectful of human rights. On the other hand, religious states have shown us no such example.

[Saranidia]

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

Not quite. A religious state might prevent you from ending up in its idea of Hell...

BUT you're still on a one-way trip to one of the other - 10,000 or so, mutually exclusive - ideas of Hell. So you're screwed anyway.

How is Islamic morality, Jewish morality and Christian morality mutually exclusive?

Also in Islam and Judaism Jews,Muslims and Christians can go to heaven.

[Saranidia]

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

Hell most likely does not exist. Neither does Heaven, for that matter; or God - and whether they do or do not is of no relevance to me. Again, pray tell, why should I care about something that is non-existent and non-consequential?

Moreover, are you suggesting that I will be liberated from hellish punishment by force, that is, being forced to abide by a religion - every religion - I do not believe in? I can think of several groups in today's world who do precisely that, you see.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

And as an agnostic, or an atheist, I have absolutely no place in the millet system. I know full well of the millet system, but it provides naught for those who do not believe in a faith, or even, those who do not believe in a monotheistic belief. Were I not an agnostic, but instead a worshiper of idols, I would be without any rights in the Ottoman Empire.

Sources for the “idol-worshippers have no rights.”?

[Saranidia]

Just because you don't believe in Hell doesn't mean you can't end up there. A religious state prevents you from doing so. You're welcome.

Hell most likely does not exist. Neither does Heaven, for that matter; or God - and whether they do or do not is of no relevance to me. Again, pray tell, why should I care about something that is non-existent and non-consequential?

Moreover, are you suggesting that I will be liberated from hellish punishment by force, that is, being forced to abide by a religion - every religion - I do not believe in? I can think of several groups in today's world who do precisely that, you see.

I disagree with forcing religion on people “whosoever wills let him believe and whosoever wills let them disbelieve”-Allah

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

And as an agnostic, or an atheist, I have absolutely no place in the millet system. I know full well of the millet system, but it provides naught for those who do not believe in a faith, or even, those who do not believe in a monotheistic belief. Were I not an agnostic, but instead a worshiper of idols, I would be without any rights in the Ottoman Empire.

Citizenship, and with it nationalism, for all its faults and flaws, is in my view a far more equalising force in today's world. Maybe not so in the days of multinational empires, but in today's era of the nation-states, certainly far more preferable. Moreover, the examples of national states we have seen give some hope that nation-states can indeed exist with pluralism, a respect for human rights, and inclusiveness; there is hope for nation-states who are not as inclusive and respectful of human rights. On the other hand, religious states have shown us no such example.

[Baltenstein]

Not quite. A religious state might prevent you from ending up in its idea of Hell...

BUT you're still on a one-way trip to one of the other - 10,000 or so, mutually exclusive - ideas of Hell. So you're screwed anyway.

How is Islamic morality, Jewish morality and Christian morality mutually exclusive?

Also in Islam and Judaism Jews,Muslims and Christians can go to heaven.

I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about Hell and how to avoid getting there. Again, just as I said, there are 10,000 (probably more) beliefs out there insisting that everyone who doesn't live by their particular interpretation, and theirs alone, will end up in Hell. Maybe you can avoid going to Sunni Hell by living your entire life by the rules of a Sunni theocracy...but that just means you're going to Shia Hell, Catholic Hell, Protestant Hell (there are many different versions), Orthodox Hell, Buddhist Hell (also many different versions), Viking Hel, Chinese Hell and so on and so forth. Maybe you'll even end up in Jean-Paul Sartre's hell?
You just can't win, I'm afraid.

[Saranidia]

How is Islamic morality, Jewish morality and Christian morality mutually exclusive?

Also in Islam and Judaism Jews,Muslims and Christians can go to heaven.

I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about Hell and how to avoid getting there. Again, just as I said, there are 10,000 (probably more) beliefs out there insisting that everyone who doesn't live by their particular interpretation will end up in Hell. Maybe you can avoid going to Sunni Hell by living your entire life by the rules of a Sunni theocracy...but that just means you're going to Shia Hell, Catholic Hell, Protestant Hell (there are many different versions), Orthodox Hell, Buddhist Hell (also many different versions), Viking Hel, Chinese Hell and so on and so forth. Maybe you'll even end up in Jean-Paul Sartre's hell?
You just can't win, I'm afraid.

You could go to “Sunni and Shia heaven.” As well as Jewish heaven.
How are they mutually exclusive?

[Saranidia]

How is Islamic morality, Jewish morality and Christian morality mutually exclusive?

Also in Islam and Judaism Jews,Muslims and Christians can go to heaven.

I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about Hell and how to avoid getting there. Again, just as I said, there are 10,000 (probably more) beliefs out there insisting that everyone who doesn't live by their particular interpretation will end up in Hell. Maybe you can avoid going to Sunni Hell by living your entire life by the rules of a Sunni theocracy...but that just means you're going to Shia Hell, Catholic Hell, Protestant Hell (there are many different versions), Orthodox Hell, Buddhist Hell (also many different versions), Viking Hel, Chinese Hell and so on and so forth. Maybe you'll even end up in Jean-Paul Sartre's hell?
You just can't win, I'm afraid.

Besides according to Nordic Paganism many Muslim shahids would go to Valhalla.

[Rojava Free State]

So, why should I - an unbeliever - be governed by laws of religion? I'm quite happy with the secular state we got as a result of 1922-1924, thank you very much.

You shouldn’t have religion forced on you.
But the ottomans had a millet system,
As a Christian you would be able to follow a Christian legal system for issues like divorce, marriage, money etc. ,
As a Jew likewise.

And you also would get taxed up the ass, and if you lived in the balkans, the army could show up and be like "hippity hoppity your kids are our property." The ottoman empire was, not good

[Rojava Free State]

I wasn't talking about morality, I was talking about Hell and how to avoid getting there. Again, just as I said, there are 10,000 (probably more) beliefs out there insisting that everyone who doesn't live by their particular interpretation will end up in Hell. Maybe you can avoid going to Sunni Hell by living your entire life by the rules of a Sunni theocracy...but that just means you're going to Shia Hell, Catholic Hell, Protestant Hell (there are many different versions), Orthodox Hell, Buddhist Hell (also many different versions), Viking Hel, Chinese Hell and so on and so forth. Maybe you'll even end up in Jean-Paul Sartre's hell?
You just can't win, I'm afraid.

Besides according to Nordic Paganism many Muslim shahids would go to Valhalla.

that would be awkward for an an al qaeda suicide bomber to blow himself up and suddenly find himself in, of all places ironically, a giant tavern with lewd women and angry men

[Kyria]

that would be awkward for an an al qaeda suicide bomber to blow himself up and suddenly find himself in, of all places ironically, a giant tavern with lewd women and angry men

IIRC the feasting in Valhalla is focused on an never ending supply of boar and alcohol.

[Rojava Free State]

that would be awkward for an an al qaeda suicide bomber to blow himself up and suddenly find himself in, of all places ironically, a giant tavern with lewd women and angry men

IIRC the feasting in Valhalla is focused on an never ending supply of boar and such.

There's supposed to be alcohol there too tho, and "beautiful women" or whatever. I'm sure Abdullah would be very shocked and horrified to find himself in such a place...

...or maybe not. Maybe this is secretly what he always wanted.