Illinois City Creates Reparations Programme

[West Leas Oros 2]

i.e. pretending it never happened and everything is fine.

Basically. Yep.

Serious question. You murder me. Does my family in retribution get to murder your entire family? Everyone even vaguely related to you?

No. That's stupid. Noone today was alive during slavery, therefore, it's done and buried.

I'd hardly call a marijuana tax similar to murdering your whole family. Though a surprising number of people argue that murdering families is a good idea for "reparations".

[The Emerald Legion]

Basically. Yep.

Serious question. You murder me. Does my family in retribution get to murder your entire family? Everyone even vaguely related to you?

No. That's stupid. Noone today was alive during slavery, therefore, it's done and buried.

I'd hardly call a marijuana tax similar to murdering your whole family. Though a surprising number of people argue that murdering families is a good idea for "reparations".

Obviously. I'm more discussing reparations in abstract with that. Honestly I'm against drugs and don't live in Illinois, so I don't rightly care too much about this beyond being against the idea of Reparations in general.

[Ifreann]

The city is doing a reparations programme. They describe it as such themselves.

Just because they call it that doesn't make it true. They can call it whatever they like. It's not a reparations program because it doesn't act like a reparations program.

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

[West Leas Oros 2]

I'd hardly call a marijuana tax similar to murdering your whole family. Though a surprising number of people argue that murdering families is a good idea for "reparations".

Obviously. I'm more discussing reparations in abstract with that. Honestly I'm against drugs and don't live in Illinois, so I don't rightly care too much about this beyond being against the idea of Reparations in general.

Well yeah, Reparations in general are shit, but I think what this city is doing isn't shit.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Just because they call it that doesn't make it true. They can call it whatever they like. It's not a reparations program because it doesn't act like a reparations program.

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

Nowhere. That's simply what reparations are. It doesn't have to be written. If you want to define reparations as not punishing by default, be my guest. In practice, that's what reparations are. This, in practice is not.

[The Emerald Legion]

Just because they call it that doesn't make it true. They can call it whatever they like. It's not a reparations program because it doesn't act like a reparations program.

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

Because... That's what reparations are? You take money, resources, etc from the offender and give it to the offended.

Obviously. I'm more discussing reparations in abstract with that. Honestly I'm against drugs and don't live in Illinois, so I don't rightly care too much about this beyond being against the idea of Reparations in general.

Well yeah, Reparations in general are shit, but I think what this city is doing isn't shit.

It furthers the illusion that blacks are discriminated against by the US government currently.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

Because... That's what reparations are? You take money, resources, etc from the offender and give it to the offended.

Well yeah, Reparations in general are shit, but I think what this city is doing isn't shit.

It furthers the illusion that blacks are discriminated against by the US government currently.

By law, they aren't allowed to. This doesn't mean they don't discriminate in practice. But punishing random citizens with no involvement in the government's wrongdoing.

[Crockerland]

A 3% sales tax on marijuana, which will be legal here in Illinois at the start of the year, is going to fund a reparations programme to the tune $500-700,000 a year to be capped at $10 million. It will be available to all black residents of Evanston whether they can prove they had enslaved ancestors or not, and it will go to things like funding job training or down payments on houses.

So just straight up racial discrimination? Hopefully they will be steamrolled by a 14th Amendment lawsuit.

[Chernoslavia]

What do you mean by "drug offense"? Possession I understand, but if someone is openly distributing drugs, I see no reason to give them reparations.

People who were imprisoned for selling weed should get first dibs at opening legal weed dispensaries.

---

You do it by moving the fuck on.

Moving the fuck on doesn't repair any of those harms either. I don't know about you, chief, but I want an equal society. I want the problems in society to be fixed. And that means we all need to actually do shit to fix it, not because of blame or as a punishment or anything like that, but because we should all help each other.

---

And punishing other people doesn't either. If you want to assist black people, then that's all well and good. But "reparations" aren't doing that.

A sales tax on the devil's lettuce isn't a punishment.

You're not advancing any struggle by mandating that we give money to certain people just because of what happened to other people over 150 years ago.

[Ifreann]

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

Nowhere. That's simply what reparations are. It doesn't have to be written. If you want to define reparations as not punishing by default, be my guest. In practice, that's what reparations are. This, in practice is not.

Seems a bit circular. It's not reparations if there's no punishment because you won't call it reparations unless there's punishment.

[Chernoslavia]

Nowhere. That's simply what reparations are. It doesn't have to be written. If you want to define reparations as not punishing by default, be my guest. In practice, that's what reparations are. This, in practice is not.

Seems a bit circular. It's not reparations if there's no punishment because you won't call it reparations unless there's punishment.

Taking people's money away because of what other people of the same race did seems like punishment.

[Gormwood]

Seems a bit circular. It's not reparations if there's no punishment because you won't call it reparations unless there's punishment.

Taking people's money away because of what other people of the same race did seems like punishment.

So a marijuana sales tax takes money from just people of one race? Genius.

[Ifreann]

Where is it written that reparations are only reparations when they punish someone?

Because... That's what reparations are? You take money, resources, etc from the offender and give it to the offended.

Reparations can mean that. They don't have to exclusively mean that.

---

People who were imprisoned for selling weed should get first dibs at opening legal weed dispensaries.

---

Moving the fuck on doesn't repair any of those harms either. I don't know about you, chief, but I want an equal society. I want the problems in society to be fixed. And that means we all need to actually do shit to fix it, not because of blame or as a punishment or anything like that, but because we should all help each other.

---

A sales tax on the devil's lettuce isn't a punishment.

You're not advancing any struggle by mandating that we give money to certain people just because of what happened to other people over 150 years ago.

This programme is not giving people money, the plan is for job training and education. But in any case, the mere passage of time doesn't repair the harms I mentioned either. These things have effects over generations. When your great grandparents are poor because they were born into slavery, your grandparents grow up poor. Because your grandparents are poor, your parents grow up poor. Because your parents are poor, you grow up poor. Because you're poor, your children grow up poor. Because your children are poor, your grandchildren grow up poor. The fact that your great grandparents are long dead by the time your grandchildren are having your great grandchildren doesn't mean that the effects of the system of chattel slavery they were born into have gone away.

And yes, to pre-empt your objections, it was theoretically possible at every point for one generation to escape poverty. Possible, but difficult in the extreme. Have you ever thought about the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? Like, literally grabbing your boots and pulling up. What happens is nothing. If you shift your weight you'll fall over, but you won't get an inch off the ground. It's literally physically impossible to do, which is why the phrase was first used to figuratively suggest doing something impossible. And that's how it came to be associated with rags to riches stories. Going from poverty to wealth in your own lifetime through sheer hard work and determination is so absurdly difficult to do that people hailed those few who did as having done the impossible.

[Satuga]

Im not a fan of the idea of racial reparations, but I have to say if people are going to go about implementing reparation programs this is probably the best way to go about it, It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't make a conscious choice, It's easily available, and it's in theory actually helpful.

Yes, if they implemented it into helping all unfortunate people I would actually promote this during the legalization of weed, but it doesn't so that's a no from me.

[Cantelo]

Because... That's what reparations are? You take money, resources, etc from the offender and give it to the offended.

Reparations can mean that. They don't have to exclusively mean that.

---

You're not advancing any struggle by mandating that we give money to certain people just because of what happened to other people over 150 years ago.

This programme is not giving people money, the plan is for job training and education. But in any case, the mere passage of time doesn't repair the harms I mentioned either. These things have effects over generations. When your great grandparents are poor because they were born into slavery, your grandparents grow up poor. Because your grandparents are poor, your parents grow up poor. Because your parents are poor, you grow up poor. Because you're poor, your children grow up poor. Because your children are poor, your grandchildren grow up poor. The fact that your great grandparents are long dead by the time your grandchildren are having your great grandchildren doesn't mean that the effects of the system of chattel slavery they were born into have gone away.

And yes, to pre-empt your objections, it was theoretically possible at every point for one generation to escape poverty. Possible, but difficult in the extreme. Have you ever thought about the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? Like, literally grabbing your boots and pulling up. What happens is nothing. If you shift your weight you'll fall over, but you won't get an inch off the ground. It's literally physically impossible to do, which is why the phrase was first used to figuratively suggest doing something impossible. And that's how it came to be associated with rags to riches stories. Going from poverty to wealth in your own lifetime through sheer hard work and determination is so absurdly difficult to do that people hailed those few who did as having done the impossible.

I took a "Racial and Ethnic Relations" course this semester in college, and yeah...black people have it pretty bad in the US. It makes sense that a lot of the poverty associated with many black communities has its roots in not only slavery but also all of the legally codified discrimination and segregation that happened for a century afterwards.

[Memelandia Major]

Im not a fan of the idea of racial reparations, but I have to say if people are going to go about implementing reparation programs this is probably the best way to go about it, It doesn't affect anyone who doesn't make a conscious choice, It's easily available, and it's in theory actually helpful.

Yes, if they implemented it into helping all unfortunate people I would actually promote this during the legalization of weed, but it doesn't so that's a no from me.

Yea, help EVERYONE, it'll still disproportionately help black people either way. So why not help some asian, indian, american indian, and some white people as well? Help as many people as you can!

[SD_Film Artists]

Resources then.

Of course it doesn't, because nothing can. That's the whole point.

That's just obviously false.

Why?

Because trying to reverse centuries of discrimination against black people in secret would just be silly.

Or just help the poor regardless of their skin colour? Also how will it "reverse centuries of discrimination" if it's helping a 1st generation immigrant?

Different people need different sorts of help. The steps we take to achieve racial equality won't necessarily be the same as the steps we take to achieve equality for LGBT+ people, for example.

And how does this help to stop discrimination against black people specifically? No doubt the job training and housing assistance would help people, but like I've said previously if there's going to be a new welfare initiative then why not just be fair with it rather than only giving it to a certain ethnicity? More to the point, it's not "reversing discrimination" it's just giving handouts to people with a certain skin pigmentation rather than directly tackling prejudice in society.

You can infer whatever you want from the terminology.

I'm infering what it generally means, especially in American politics.

[Bear Stearns]

A direct function of the disproportionate amount of crime they commit.

Which is a function of a disproportionate amount of poverty in black america. Which is part of the legacy of slavery and segregation

Poverty can explain crimes like theft and drug dealing. It cannot explain murder and rape.

[Gormwood]

Which is a function of a disproportionate amount of poverty in black america. Which is part of the legacy of slavery and segregation

Poverty can explain crimes like theft and drug dealing. It cannot explain murder and rape.

But pathologizing them to blacks can. Sure.

[The Emerald Legion]

Because... That's what reparations are? You take money, resources, etc from the offender and give it to the offended.

Reparations can mean that. They don't have to exclusively mean that.

---

You're not advancing any struggle by mandating that we give money to certain people just because of what happened to other people over 150 years ago.

This programme is not giving people money, the plan is for job training and education. But in any case, the mere passage of time doesn't repair the harms I mentioned either. These things have effects over generations. When your great grandparents are poor because they were born into slavery, your grandparents grow up poor. Because your grandparents are poor, your parents grow up poor. Because your parents are poor, you grow up poor. Because you're poor, your children grow up poor. Because your children are poor, your grandchildren grow up poor. The fact that your great grandparents are long dead by the time your grandchildren are having your great grandchildren doesn't mean that the effects of the system of chattel slavery they were born into have gone away.

And yes, to pre-empt your objections, it was theoretically possible at every point for one generation to escape poverty. Possible, but difficult in the extreme. Have you ever thought about the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? Like, literally grabbing your boots and pulling up. What happens is nothing. If you shift your weight you'll fall over, but you won't get an inch off the ground. It's literally physically impossible to do, which is why the phrase was first used to figuratively suggest doing something impossible. And that's how it came to be associated with rags to riches stories. Going from poverty to wealth in your own lifetime through sheer hard work and determination is so absurdly difficult to do that people hailed those few who did as having done the impossible.

No. That's utterly idiotic.

Pull yourself up by the bootstraps is a euphemism for standing up from a sitting position by just reaching forward. Typically your hands will end up around where your feet are.

It's basically saying "Do something."

And bullshit. My Grandfather went from having nothing, from being forced to eat marrow bones for supper, to being comfortably wealthy. And he wasn't the only one.

And guess what? I grew up poor as well, despite my grandfather's wealth, because my mom didn't want to be a burden on him. We lived in literal slums. We didn't even have proper doors or heating. I didn't see the internet until I was in my late teens despite it existing for ages.

Just because your parents are poor doesn't mean you will be. Same for parents being rich.

[Satuga]

But pathologizing them to blacks can. Sure.

Poverty and no education leads to an increase in crime, this effects everyone not just one population, if you want to correlate it to one population you can, but it will still effect every population. If one population has an increased amount of poverty or less education than another it can explain if said population has an increased rate of crime.

[Gormwood]

But pathologizing them to blacks can. Sure.

Poverty and no education leads to an increase in crime, this effects everyone not just one population, if you want to correlate it to one population you can, but it will still effect every population. If one population has an increased amount of poverty or less education than another it can explain if said population has an increased rate of crime.

He said poverty doesn't explain rape and murder, hence implying it's pathological with blacks.

[Ifreann]

Reparations can mean that. They don't have to exclusively mean that.

---

This programme is not giving people money, the plan is for job training and education. But in any case, the mere passage of time doesn't repair the harms I mentioned either. These things have effects over generations. When your great grandparents are poor because they were born into slavery, your grandparents grow up poor. Because your grandparents are poor, your parents grow up poor. Because your parents are poor, you grow up poor. Because you're poor, your children grow up poor. Because your children are poor, your grandchildren grow up poor. The fact that your great grandparents are long dead by the time your grandchildren are having your great grandchildren doesn't mean that the effects of the system of chattel slavery they were born into have gone away.

And yes, to pre-empt your objections, it was theoretically possible at every point for one generation to escape poverty. Possible, but difficult in the extreme. Have you ever thought about the idea of pulling yourself up by your bootstraps? Like, literally grabbing your boots and pulling up. What happens is nothing. If you shift your weight you'll fall over, but you won't get an inch off the ground. It's literally physically impossible to do, which is why the phrase was first used to figuratively suggest doing something impossible. And that's how it came to be associated with rags to riches stories. Going from poverty to wealth in your own lifetime through sheer hard work and determination is so absurdly difficult to do that people hailed those few who did as having done the impossible.

No. That's utterly idiotic.

Pull yourself up by the bootstraps is a euphemism for standing up from a sitting position by just reaching forward. Typically your hands will end up around where your feet are.

Lol.

It's basically saying "Do something."

It's really not, but even if it were, that's still dumb as hell.

And bullshit. My Grandfather went from having nothing, from being forced to eat marrow bones for supper, to being comfortably wealthy. And he wasn't the only one.

Lots of other people's grandfathers didn't escape poverty. Cos it's really fucking hard.

If I told you that it's really hard to win Olympic gold, would you start listing people who did win Olympic gold? Do you think that would contradict me?

[Estanglia]

Can't we just help all poor people? Or, if it's based on whether or not that person's family suffered greatly in the past, leaving them poor in the modern day, open it to everyone whose families suffered greatly in the past?

It seems the "black only" is somewhat counterproductive if the goal is to help people on the basis of something other than them being black, considering you'll cut out people who'd otherwise qualify but aren't black and include people who don't need help but get access to it because they're black.

I don't particularly oppose this scheme, though. Helping people is a good thing.

I'll ask you what I've been asking I don't know how many other people in this thread. How do you reverse centuries of discrimination against black people without ever targeting assistance to black people? Abolishing slavery doesn't repair the harms done by slavery. Enfranchising black Americans doesn't repair the harms done by disenfranchising them. Ending desegregation doesn't repair the harms done by segregation, and doesn't desegregate schools or communities.

Yes, you help them with targeted help.

My question is: can't we extend this to all communities who need help? All communities who have suffered in the past? Black people aren't unique in this: throughout the history of the US, various minorities have been screwed over and harmed.

Helping black people is great, but we should help all people who have suffered greatly and are now in a poor position because of that.

So, I guess my complaint is more "why stop here?" rather than "why do this?". Help all the communities that have been screwed over in some way.

[Satuga]

He said poverty doesn't explain rape and murder, hence implying it's pathological with blacks.

It's pathological with anyone who has the capacity to kill another human being or do something so horrendous.