Is all criticism of Israel antisemitic?

[Greater Loegria]

Why worry about anti-Semitism when the Holy Land is occupied. What Christians often forget is that Christian Arabs were forced off their land by Jewish settlers. The fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem to Islam and the latter now to the Jews is a tragedy personal to every member of Western Christendom.

[Munkcestrian Republic]

from your signature:

"Zionist Occupation Government"
"The Eternal Jew"

Don't you have an F7 thread to be hilarious in?

thats nice

Your antisemitism is nice? Or were you just unable to come up with any other response?

Why worry about anti-Semitism when the Holy Land is occupied. What Christians often forget is that Christian Arabs were forced off their land by Jewish settlers. The fall of Constantinople and Jerusalem to Islam and the latter now to the Jews is a tragedy personal to every member of Western Christendom.

Take it this guy was one of your friends?

[Saciu]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

[Stellonia]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

My assessment is that Israel should remain Jewish, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multinational state would be either feasible or ideal.

[Imma be imma be]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

My assessment is that Israel should remain Jewish, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multinational state would be either feasible or ideal.

25 percent of Israel's population is already something other than Jewish. Things are quite peaceful in Israel so far.

[Gim]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

Israel has religious ambitions. I don't know if this can be put in a secular point of view.

[Psukhe]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

Israel has religious ambitions. I don't know if this can be put in a secular point of view.

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

[Gormwood]

Israel has religious ambitions. I don't know if this can be put in a secular point of view.

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

Seems like they want to make it into a theocracy. Which of course is only bad when it's Islamic.

[Fahran]

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

Seems like they want to make it into a theocracy. Which of course is only bad when it's Islamic.

Likud is not Shas, friendo.

[Gormwood]

Seems like they want to make it into a theocracy. Which of course is only bad when it's Islamic.

Likud is not Shas, friendo.

And Kahane Chai is outlawed but they're looking the other way while the settlers try to make Meyer's vision a reality.

[Fahran]

Likud is not Shas, friendo.

And Kahane Chai is outlawed but they're looking the other way while the settlers try to make Meyer's vision a reality.

Not quite. I don't think you get how outside the mainstream Kahane really was. And Likud isn't a theocratic party anyhow. They're less religious than Fatah at this point, and I wouldn't call Fatah a theocratic party either.

[Pacomia]

No, definitely not. A lot of the people that say it is are just trying to silence those that attempt to point out Israel's many corrupt practices and injustices. Just as not all praise of Germany is Nazist, not all criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic.

[Rojava Free State]

Not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic (though I imagine at least a fair portion is). The notion that criticism of Israel is antisemitic is ridiculous. Israel, just like any country, has flaws - some minor, some more severe. A lot of it seems to be based on the fact that Israel kills Palestinians - which is because they're at war, and that's what happens in war.
(For reference, I support Israel, but I believe it should be more secular. A secular one-state solution would be ideal, if not feasible.)

My assessment is that Israel should remain Jewish, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multinational state would be either feasible or ideal.

"My assessment is that America should remain white, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multicultural state would be either feasible or ideal."

notice how when I change only 3 words, and the third one I only slightly modified (it basically means the same thing as before), it sounds like some alt right crap.

Also Israel killing Palestinians in war isn't the issue. It's them killing Palestinian civilians at random and using white phosphorous and their police abusing Arab civilians. Israel treats Arab people like shit and then wonders why they're not on good terms with them

[Rojava Free State]

Israel has religious ambitions. I don't know if this can be put in a secular point of view.

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

You can't detach Zionism from religion though. Sure Zionists were not die hard religious people, but the Jews claim to Israel is innately tied to religion, and it's why people from as far away as India and Ethiopia are living there now. It's also tied to their lack of understanding of history, that being that Jews were never the only ethnic group in Israel and they need to quit with the Jewish ethnostate bullshit

[Psukhe]

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

You can't detach Zionism from religion though. Sure Zionists were not die hard religious people, but the Jews claim to Israel is innately tied to religion, and it's why people from as far away as India and Ethiopia are living there now.

Zionism tie to Judaism exists because Judaism is an ethnoreligion. You can't exactly separate the ethnicity from the religion. Early Zionists, however, were entirely secular and wanted a Jewish state to provide a haven for Jews, and understandably so.

It's also tied to their lack of understanding of history, that being that Jews were never the only ethnic group in Israel and they need to quit with the Jewish ethnostate bullshit

Germany, Finland, or Russia are ethnostate yet they do not claim that only Germans, Finns, or Russians can live in their respective countries. Throwing "Jewish ethnostate" around like it's some sort of a slur isn't a good argument.

"My assessment is that America should remain white, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multicultural state would be either feasible or ideal."

notice how when I change only 3 words, and the third one I only slightly modified (it basically means the same thing as before), it sounds like some alt right crap.

Only you've falsely equated Jewish with white so it doesn't really stand. Wanting Germany, Finland, or Israel to retain their German, Finnish, or Jewish identities doesn't sound like alt-right crap.

[Rojava Free State]

You can't detach Zionism from religion though. Sure Zionists were not die hard religious people, but the Jews claim to Israel is innately tied to religion, and it's why people from as far away as India and Ethiopia are living there now.

Zionism tie to Judaism exists because Judaism is an ethnoreligion. You can't exactly separate the ethnicity from the religion. Early Zionists, however, were entirely secular and wanted a Jewish state to provide a haven for Jews, and understandably so.

It's also tied to their lack of understanding of history, that being that Jews were never the only ethnic group in Israel and they need to quit with the Jewish ethnostate bullshit

Germany, Finland, or Russia are ethnostate yet they do not claim that only Germans, Finns, or Russians can live in their respective countries. Throwing "Jewish ethnostate" around like it's some sort of a slur isn't a good argument.

"My assessment is that America should remain white, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multicultural state would be either feasible or ideal."

notice how when I change only 3 words, and the third one I only slightly modified (it basically means the same thing as before), it sounds like some alt right crap.

Only you've falsely equated Jewish with white so it doesn't really stand. Wanting Germany, Finland, or Israel to retain their German, Finnish, or Jewish identities doesn't sound like alt-right crap.

That's funny when there are Jews coming from as far away as India and Ethiopia who don't look alike or have the same culture. Ethnostates are bad because they restrict the rights of those aren't of their culture. I don't consider Germany to be an ethnostate, because you don't need to be ethnically German to be a citizen or have equal rights. When I say ethnostate, I mean something like the hypothetical Pacific northwest Aryan homeland. Israel can be majority jewish, that's not the issue. The Issue is when human rights in Israel are based around whether you're Jewish or not. When people don't feel welcome because they're arabs, that's the issue. Not whether 75% of israelis are Jewish.

If Israel remains 75% Jewish or doesnt, it's no skin off my nose. Remember that populations constantly change and nothing lasts. Kazakhstan used to be full of Scythians and now it's full of Kazakh Turks. America used to be full of the descendants of Siberian nomads and now it's full of people mostly of European heritage. If Israel stops being mostly jewish, it'll be nothing new as far as history goes

[Psukhe]

That's funny when there are Jews coming from as far away as India and Ethiopia who don't look alike or have the same culture. Ethnostates are bad because they restrict the rights of those aren't of their culture. I don't consider Germany to be an ethnostate, because you don't need to be ethnically German to be a citizen or have equal rights. When I say ethnostate, I mean something like the hypothetical Pacific northwest Aryan homeland. Israel can be majority jewish, that's not the issue. The Issue is when human rights in Israel are based around whether you're Jewish or not. When people don't feel welcome because they're arabs, that's the issue. Not whether 75% of israelis are Jewish.

If Israel remains 75% Jewish or doesnt, it's no skin off my nose. Remember that populations constantly change and nothing lasts. Kazakhstan used to be full of Scythians and now it's full of Kazakh Turks. America used to be full of the descendants of Siberian nomads and now it's full of people mostly of European heritage. If Israel stops being mostly jewish, it'll be nothing new as far as history goes

And I'm confident that a man of Finnish descent can claim Finnish citizenship solely due to his Finnishness. Our definitions of ethnostates are rather different then, and I'm not certain that Israel fits yours. I'll concede that Arab minorities aren't treated the best in Israel (on a tangent: not because they're minorities, however, but because they're Arabs), but seeing as when it comes to the law, they're granted full rights, and plenty of Arabs partake in the governmental apparatus as police officers, government employees, and parliamentarians. Could the situation be improved? Absolutely. Is Israel's being an ethnostate harms minorities as they are per se? I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

If Israel remains 75% Jewish or doesnt, it's no skin off my nose. Remember that populations constantly change and nothing lasts. Kazakhstan used to be full of Scythians and now it's full of Kazakh Turks. America used to be full of the descendants of Siberian nomads and now it's full of people mostly of European heritage. If Israel stops being mostly jewish, it'll be nothing new as far as history goes

You're arguing from a distant and abstract point of view which doesn't particularly help in this context. If Israel ceases to be mostly Jewish, it's not going to be a bloodless affair. Demographics change constantly, but it's a claim to be made of history, not of present days. And yes, I understand the irony of this claim when it comes to the recent past in the Middle East and Israel's inception. Its (Israel's) history is complicated and messy, and there are more than two sides to every single event since its inception.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

My assessment is that Israel should remain Jewish, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multinational state would be either feasible or ideal.

25 percent of Israel's population is already something other than Jewish. Things are quite peaceful in Israel so far.

I wouldn't call it peaceful, but Israel does need to move past racism.

[Rojava Free State]

My assessment is that Israel should remain Jewish, secular, and democratic. I do not think that a multinational state would be either feasible or ideal.

25 percent of Israel's population is already something other than Jewish. Things are quite peaceful in Israel so far.

Being a second class citizen isn't a peaceful existence

[Rojava Free State]

25 percent of Israel's population is already something other than Jewish. Things are quite peaceful in Israel so far.

I wouldn't call it peaceful, but Israel does need to move past racism.

Don't even bother bringing it up to him. Imma be thinks Israel is perfect and didn't drop white phosphorous on civilians or order it's soldiers to shoot everything that moves in gaza. He wants everyone to believe that Israel's government isn't made up of Grade A jackasses who think Arab lives matter less than Jewish ones

[Rojava Free State]

That's funny when there are Jews coming from as far away as India and Ethiopia who don't look alike or have the same culture. Ethnostates are bad because they restrict the rights of those aren't of their culture. I don't consider Germany to be an ethnostate, because you don't need to be ethnically German to be a citizen or have equal rights. When I say ethnostate, I mean something like the hypothetical Pacific northwest Aryan homeland. Israel can be majority jewish, that's not the issue. The Issue is when human rights in Israel are based around whether you're Jewish or not. When people don't feel welcome because they're arabs, that's the issue. Not whether 75% of israelis are Jewish.

If Israel remains 75% Jewish or doesnt, it's no skin off my nose. Remember that populations constantly change and nothing lasts. Kazakhstan used to be full of Scythians and now it's full of Kazakh Turks. America used to be full of the descendants of Siberian nomads and now it's full of people mostly of European heritage. If Israel stops being mostly jewish, it'll be nothing new as far as history goes

And I'm confident that a man of Finnish descent can claim Finnish citizenship solely due to his Finnishness. Our definitions of ethnostates are rather different then, and I'm not certain that Israel fits yours. I'll concede that Arab minorities aren't treated the best in Israel (on a tangent: not because they're minorities, however, but because they're Arabs), but seeing as when it comes to the law, they're granted full rights, and plenty of Arabs partake in the governmental apparatus as police officers, government employees, and parliamentarians. Could the situation be improved? Absolutely. Is Israel's being an ethnostate harms minorities as they are per se? I'm gonna go ahead and say no.

If Israel remains 75% Jewish or doesnt, it's no skin off my nose. Remember that populations constantly change and nothing lasts. Kazakhstan used to be full of Scythians and now it's full of Kazakh Turks. America used to be full of the descendants of Siberian nomads and now it's full of people mostly of European heritage. If Israel stops being mostly jewish, it'll be nothing new as far as history goes

You're arguing from a distant and abstract point of view which doesn't particularly help in this context. If Israel ceases to be mostly Jewish, it's not going to be a bloodless affair. Demographics change constantly, but it's a claim to be made of history, not of present days. And yes, I understand the irony of this claim when it comes to the recent past in the Middle East and Israel's inception. Its (Israel's) history is complicated and messy, and there are more than two sides to every single event since its inception.

First off im gonna start this off by saying that in my travels to israel, almost all the police I saw were Jewish. Even in cities that were half arab, I almost never saw police who were Arabs. Israel's police force represents the demographics of the towns they patrol about as good as Ferguson's did in 2014. Second off, who is to say a majority non Jewish Israel would be a scene of violence and bloodshed? You yourself said being a minority doesn't mean you'll be treated unfairly, and while we should be somewhat concerned about how Jews or anyone else is treated, the idea s majority Jewish state needs to exist for the safety of Jewish people is a little overstated. I personally believe that states in general are at best a necessary evil, and that's at best, and I think States based around ethnicity to the point they start acting racist are the worst of states. Israel has a right to exist, and so does Palestine (which Israel constantly treats like trash) and Lebanon (who Israel invaded during a civil war which in my playbook is kicking a man who's down) and Syria (who Israel constantly randomly bombs). Israel can't have a one way street of respect. A little equality wouldn't hurt them

[Vistulange]

What precisely are those religious ambitions? Israel was founded on a rather secular ideology (namely Zionism).

You can't detach Zionism from religion though. Sure Zionists were not die hard religious people, but the Jews claim to Israel is innately tied to religion, and it's why people from as far away as India and Ethiopia are living there now. It's also tied to their lack of understanding of history, that being that Jews were never the only ethnic group in Israel and they need to quit with the Jewish ethnostate bullshit

You very well can. The Zionists did exactly that, being largely atheists and agnostics. By the time the World Zionist Organization was a thing, its members were largely what we'd call "culturally Jewish", just like "cultural Muslims" or "cultural Christians", i.e. not going to mass/daily prayers, not partaking in a vast majority of the relevant religious rituals, but still identifying as such due to their cultural connections with that identity. To them, Jewishness was a nationality, not particularly a religion they felt a part of. They were Jewish nationalists.

In a theological and political sense, Zionism as an ideology was in truth a rebellion against God. Jewish tradition held that the Temple had been destroyed and the Jews exiled from the Holy Land for transgressions against God, and their punishment was exile and being doomed to being a minority. The awaited Messiah would return and lead the Jews to the Promised Land once God was satisfied that the Jews had been punished adequately, and the Temple would be rebuilt.

Fast forward about two thousand years, and the Messiah is nowhere in sight and it doesn't look like anybody is going to lead the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael. Enter the Zionists, who essentially say: "fuck God, fuck this fate business; we're taking our own destiny into our own hands". The religious Jews were (maybe still are) largely either anti-Zionist - these people actually actively work against the State of Israel, because they believe that its establishment is an affront and an insult against God - or non-Zionist, which means they regard Israel as any other gentile country, nothing special. This is the category that Shas falls in. The Zionist ideology was intensely focused on the Jewish - rather, Hebrew (later Israeli), as the term "Jew" was seen to be something of the diaspora - conquest of labour, i.e. the Israelis becoming farmers and workers in their own lands. If that sounds very Blut und Boden, that's because the concept is quite similar, though I shouldn't have to point out how they are different.

However, there were still a large amount of Orthodox Jews who lived in Mandatory Palestine in 1948, and both the seculars (i.e. Ben Gurion's Zionists) and the Orthodox believed that the other side was demographically doomed, culminating in a certain agreement between the two sides to prevent the Israelis from descending into infighting. Compromises were made.

Consider a very particular sentence in the Proclamation of Independence, at the very end: "Placing our trust in the Almighty, we affix our signatures to this proclamation at this session of the provisional Council of State, on the soil of the Homeland, in the city of Tel-Aviv, on this Sabbath eve, the 5th day of Iyar, 5708."

There, "the Almighty" is a mistranslation: The Hebrew phrase is צור ישראל, "Tzur Yisrael", which means "Rock of Israel". The ambigiuity of the term - it can be interpreted as "God", which suited the religious; it was also interpreted by the Zionists as a cultural and historical term for the Land of Israel, which suited the secular - itself allowed that compromise.

However, to dwell on the founding of Israel as a foundation of arguing about Zionism can get us only so far. Like Kemalism in Turkey, Zionism is an old ideology - though it's infinitely more articulated and formulated than Kemalism is - and it's gone through changes. Specifically, the political earthquake in the elections of 1977 where Alignment lost and Likud under Menachem Begin won, forever changing the Israeli political sphere. You'd expect that non-Zionists and anti-Zionists wouldn't support such an intensely Zionist person and party, but that's exactly what happened.

[Psukhe]

First off im gonna start this off by saying that in my travels to israel, almost all the police I saw were Jewish. Even in cities that were half arab, I almost never saw police who were Arabs. Israel's police force represents the demographics of the towns they patrol about as good as Ferguson's did in 2014.

While Arabs are approximately 25% of Israel's demographic, they aren't represented so in the police force. True. Have you perhaps contemplated that it's related to the fact that the (conventional) police is afraid of taking action in Arab cities and villages? This leads us into arguing what came first, police oppression of Arabs or Arabs not letting the police do its job in their cities and villages. While I can already guess as to what your sentiment is, there have been protests recently against this very lack of action taken by the Israeli police when it comes to crime and particularly organized crime in the Arabic society in Israel. While I can bear no truly compelling nor even comprehensive argument here, I believe that we can at least deduce a thing or two, namely, that the police lets the Arabic population administer itself freely (in Israel proper, mind you, not the West Bank).

Second off, who is to say a majority non Jewish Israel would be a scene of violence and bloodshed? You yourself said being a minority doesn't mean you'll be treated unfairly, and while we should be somewhat concerned about how Jews or anyone else is treated, the idea s majority Jewish state needs to exist for the safety of Jewish people is a little overstated. I personally believe that states in general are at best a necessary evil, and that's at best, and I think States based around ethnicity to the point they start acting racist are the worst of states.

The question is the context of Jews becoming a minority in Israel. I find it hard to believe that Palestinians are just going to coëxist peacefully next to Jews in Israel were they (the Palestinians) become the majority, and not necessarily due to how Jews treat Arabs, but due to the very history of Israel (War of Independence). The Jews aren't genociding the Palestinians, and if they are, they're doing a terrible job of it (seeing as the Palestinian demographic isn't particularly going down). And no, the idea that a Jewish state is needed for the safety of the Jewish people is absolutely not overstated. I don't need to point out the terrible history of antisemitism in Europe (without mentioning the Muslim world, even) to show that Jews very much need a state safe for them. It just so happens that only a Jewish majority can promise a haven for Jews, and they can't really trust anyone; considering the Holocaust or the pogroms, I can't blame them.

Israel has a right to exist, and so does Palestine (which Israel constantly treats like trash) and Lebanon (who Israel invaded during a civil war which in my playbook is kicking a man who's down) and Syria (who Israel constantly randomly bombs). Israel can't have a one way street of respect. A little equality wouldn't hurt them

Unfortunately I am not too educated on this manner, so I can't really argue properly. I do, however, rely on the early wars in which Israel participated (and won) against its neighbours to justify its supposed aggression against these neighbours. Egypt and Jordan seem to deal with Israel nicely, for that matter.

[Rojava Free State]

First off im gonna start this off by saying that in my travels to israel, almost all the police I saw were Jewish. Even in cities that were half arab, I almost never saw police who were Arabs. Israel's police force represents the demographics of the towns they patrol about as good as Ferguson's did in 2014.

While Arabs are approximately 25% of Israel's demographic, they aren't represented so in the police force. True. Have you perhaps contemplated that it's related to the fact that the (conventional) police is afraid of taking action in Arab cities and villages? This leads us into arguing what came first, police oppression of Arabs or Arabs not letting the police do its job in their cities and villages. While I can already guess as to what your sentiment is, there have been protests recently against this very lack of action taken by the Israeli police when it comes to crime and particularly organized crime in the Arabic society in Israel. While I can bear no truly compelling nor even comprehensive argument here, I believe that we can at least deduce a thing or two, namely, that the police lets the Arabic population administer itself freely (in Israel proper, mind you, not the West Bank).

Second off, who is to say a majority non Jewish Israel would be a scene of violence and bloodshed? You yourself said being a minority doesn't mean you'll be treated unfairly, and while we should be somewhat concerned about how Jews or anyone else is treated, the idea s majority Jewish state needs to exist for the safety of Jewish people is a little overstated. I personally believe that states in general are at best a necessary evil, and that's at best, and I think States based around ethnicity to the point they start acting racist are the worst of states.

The question is the context of Jews becoming a minority in Israel. I find it hard to believe that Palestinians are just going to coëxist peacefully next to Jews in Israel were they (the Palestinians) become the majority, and not necessarily due to how Jews treat Arabs, but due to the very history of Israel (War of Independence). The Jews aren't genociding the Palestinians, and if they are, they're doing a terrible job of it (seeing as the Palestinian demographic isn't particularly going down). And no, the idea that a Jewish state is needed for the safety of the Jewish people is absolutely not overstated. I don't need to point out the terrible history of antisemitism in Europe (without mentioning the Muslim world, even) to show that Jews very much need a state safe for them. It just so happens that only a Jewish majority can promise a haven for Jews, and they can't really trust anyone; considering the Holocaust or the pogroms, I can't blame them.

Israel has a right to exist, and so does Palestine (which Israel constantly treats like trash) and Lebanon (who Israel invaded during a civil war which in my playbook is kicking a man who's down) and Syria (who Israel constantly randomly bombs). Israel can't have a one way street of respect. A little equality wouldn't hurt them

Unfortunately I am not too educated on this manner, so I can't really argue properly. I do, however, rely on the early wars in which Israel participated (and won) against its neighbours to justify its supposed aggression against these neighbours. Egypt and Jordan seem to deal with Israel nicely, for that matter.

The Arabs don't have a good relation with police probably because police have a tendency to get a little violent with them.

As for a Jewish state being necessary, you notice there isn't a gay state on earth, and yet gays have been persecuted for thousands of years. We can fix the problem of persecution without needing to segregate people. Yes Israel isn't committing a full on genocide, but they are pushing people off their land and oppressing people. And I don't care what war Israel fought in 1948 or 67, attacking people who are caught in a civil war and allowing civilians to be massacred under your watch (sabra and shatila) is a dick move. Israel has all these excuses for all the BS that's gone on, when the best thing they could do is admit they were wrong. The Israeli government won't though. They don't regard Arab lives as important enough to be protected from danger

[Fahran]

25 percent of Israel's population is already something other than Jewish. Things are quite peaceful in Israel so far.

Being a second class citizen isn't a peaceful existence

It is preferable to having your homes and property seized, and being made to flee. As many Jews in Palestine and else-where in the Arab world have endured. There's a reason Israel has a substantial Arab minority and Algeria does not. There's a reason Palestinians want the settlements removed instead of incorporated into a future multiethnic Arab nation-state. You ask that Israel grant clemency to those who have seldom granted clemency to Jews on the whole. Were the situation reversed in Palestine, Jews would live, at best, as the Kurds did in Iraq and Syria.