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Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:41 amby Crockerland
Drongonia wrote:Crockerland wrote:>"The Holocaust didn't happen"
>"Uhh what? That's insane, why would you say-"
>"Wooow can't even criticize Israel these days"https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_baileyLiterally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.
Just look at Rostavykhan in this very thread voicing support for the white supremacist "America First" groyper army that harasses TPU speakers for not hating Jews, blacks, and gay people sufficiently.
Of course it would be lost on the average person not "in the know" that Rostavykhan is referencing
the Groyper Army lead by Nick Fuentes, whose Youtube channel "America First" is where the name of the slogan comes from. Nick Fuentes denies the Holocaust, abhors race mixing, and hates people who are not white, and sets loose his Groyper Army on anyone who disagrees, with his main target being Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA.
But if you're against Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and white supremacists, you're against "America First" and "Criticizing Israel". That's the power of hiding reprehensible positions behind an inoffensive slogan, also known as
dog-whistle politics.
So no, if you criticize Israel because you don't like their tax policy or their ridiculous marriage laws where even atheist couples are forced to go through religious institutions to get married, that's not antisemitic. If you advocate for terrorist groups or neo-nazis that want to exterminate Jews, or you hate Israel based on baseless conspiracy theories that they're "subverting the white race", and you call that "criticism of Israel", it's still antisemitic.
Hoooooo boy. I know this isn't the thread here but there's a bit to defend my boy Nick over.
a) He's not a white supremacist - Nick is a mixed-race guy himself and has had multiple superchatters ask him if their race is alright in his future imagined state, and of course he says yes because it wouldn't be an ethno-state. He reaffirms time and time again that he isn't a white nationalist or a white supremacist (he in fact calls them cringe).
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/11/11/20948317/alt-right-donald-trump-jr-conservative-tpusa-yaf-racism-antisemitismBut this is pure semantics, as Fuentes is a white nationalist and an avowed anti-Semite who referred to Daily Wire writer Matt Walsh as a “shabbos goy race traitor” for condemning the El Paso, Texas, gunman who killed more than 20 people in August. In fact, in an interview with a French Canadian white nationalist, Fuentes said that the only reason he didn’t call himself a white nationalist is because “that kind of terminology is used almost exclusively by the left to defame.”
“I think in a way it’s almost redundant that you’re a ‘white’ nationalist. We know that the word ‘nation’ almost implicitly talks about ethnicity and biology,” Fuentes said.
Drongonia wrote:c) You don't seem to be "In the know" about his supposed holocaust denial. He was reading a superchat of a fan, which he even admits was in bad taste - but they were not his words. You can even see him going "oh no... no no no" while he's reading it in the clip.
Yeah, and then he goes "the math doesn't seem to add up there, I don't think the result would be six million, maybe 200-300 thousand" on his own, while not reading the superchat.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:18 amby Hugstopia
Personally I think no, but we have to make sure it doesn't go from criticizing people's country to criticizing their religion in a mean way.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:46 amby Vivolkha
Hugstopia wrote:Personally I think no, but we have to make sure it doesn't go from criticizing people's country to criticizing their religion in a mean way.
Criticizing Israel is not criticizing Judaism. While Judaism and Israel are related, and both can face legitimate criticism, criticizing Israel on the basis of it being a Jew state is antisemitic.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 6:48 amby Hugstopia
Vivolkha wrote:Hugstopia wrote:Personally I think no, but we have to make sure it doesn't go from criticizing people's country to criticizing their religion in a mean way.
Criticizing Israel is not criticizing Judaism. While Judaism and Israel are related, and both can face legitimate criticism, criticizing Israel on the basis of it being a Jew state is antisemitic.
Yeah I think that sums up what I was trying to say
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:08 amby Luziyca
Personally, not all criticism of the Israeli state and its actions are antisemitic, but as Hugstopia said, we need to make sure the criticism doesn't go from criticizing Israel's human rights record/marriage laws/et cetera to criticizing their religion and culture.
That said, given the flag of the OP, it does feel a little bit suspicious that s/he is asking that particular question.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:34 amby Rojava Free State
See? This is what I'm talking about. You can't criticize Israel without someone calling you antisemitic. Like jesus, when did Israel get the privilege of not being held to the same standards as everyone else
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:36 amby Rojava Free State
Vivolkha wrote:Hugstopia wrote:Personally I think no, but we have to make sure it doesn't go from criticizing people's country to criticizing their religion in a mean way.
Criticizing Israel is not criticizing Judaism. While Judaism and Israel are related, and both can face legitimate criticism, criticizing Israel on the basis of it being a Jew state is antisemitic.
Well that's a very fluid definition of what is and isn't antisemitic. I'm not against Israel for being mostly Jewish in demographics but I am against Israel having officially declared itself a Jewish ethnostate, since I think all ethnostates are bullshit that lead to violence and hatred
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:37 amby -Astoria
Rojava Free State wrote:See? This is what I'm talking about. You can't criticize Israel without someone calling you antisemitic. Like jesus, when did Israel get the privilege of not being held to the same standards as everyone else
Though one can say the same about those that get labelled as "America-hating" for simply criticising it. And no, I'm not talking about ones that wish literal death to it.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:38 amby Rojava Free State
Crockerland wrote:>"The Holocaust didn't happen"
>"Uhh what? That's insane, why would you say-"
>"Wooow can't even criticize Israel these days"https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_baileyLiterally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.
Just look at Rostavykhan in this very thread voicing support for the white supremacist "America First" groyper army that harasses TPU speakers for not hating Jews, blacks, and gay people sufficiently.
Rostavykhan wrote:Reminded of a recent event involving Turning Point USA, America First, and Trump Jr. as a speaker, wherein an America First member's criticism of Israel and the US Government's witholding disaster aid from businesses that refuse to sign away their right to speak against Israel was brushed off as Anti-Semitic. Fortunately, that remark wasn't very popular with the rest of the crowd.
Of course it would be lost on the average person not "in the know" that Rostavykhan is referencing
the Groyper Army lead by Nick Fuentes, whose Youtube channel "America First" is where the name of the slogan comes from. Nick Fuentes denies the Holocaust, abhors race mixing, and hates people who are not white, and sets loose his Groyper Army on anyone who disagrees, with his main target being Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA.
But if you're against Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and white supremacists, you're against "America First" and "Criticizing Israel". That's the power of hiding reprehensible positions behind an inoffensive slogan, also known as
dog-whistle politics.
So no, if you criticize Israel because you don't like their tax policy or their ridiculous marriage laws where even atheist couples are forced to go through religious institutions to get married, that's not antisemitic. If you advocate for terrorist groups or neo-nazis that want to exterminate Jews, or you hate Israel based on baseless conspiracy theories that they're "subverting the white race", and you call that "criticism of Israel", it's still antisemitic.
The ADL thinks it's anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, as does AIPAC and Israel says it's anti-Semitic to criticize them. It's not in anyone's mind, there are forces out there that want to hide the truth about israel, which is that it's a place where human rights go to die.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:39 amby The Noviaskiet
NO, Israel has increasingly become something of a far right ethnostate. Nazis are like “(((they))) are there sooooooooooo”, but rational people just think that the government has repeatedly abused the people of Palestine.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:55 amby Rojava Free State
The Noviaskiet wrote:NO, Israel has increasingly become something of a far right ethnostate. Nazis are like “(((they))) are there sooooooooooo”, but rational people just think that the government has repeatedly abused the people of Palestine.
Israel be like "we're not abusing anyone's rights" as they drop white phosphorous on civilians and bulldoze entire Arab neighborhoods to make way for an illegal West bank settlement.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 7:58 amby New Udonia
Cetacea wrote:No, Israel is Anti-Semitic
Couldn't have worded it better myself.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:07 amby Vivolkha
Rojava Free State wrote:Crockerland wrote:>"The Holocaust didn't happen"
>"Uhh what? That's insane, why would you say-"
>"Wooow can't even criticize Israel these days"https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_baileyLiterally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.
Just look at Rostavykhan in this very thread voicing support for the white supremacist "America First" groyper army that harasses TPU speakers for not hating Jews, blacks, and gay people sufficiently.
Of course it would be lost on the average person not "in the know" that Rostavykhan is referencing
the Groyper Army lead by Nick Fuentes, whose Youtube channel "America First" is where the name of the slogan comes from. Nick Fuentes denies the Holocaust, abhors race mixing, and hates people who are not white, and sets loose his Groyper Army on anyone who disagrees, with his main target being Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA.
But if you're against Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and white supremacists, you're against "America First" and "Criticizing Israel". That's the power of hiding reprehensible positions behind an inoffensive slogan, also known as
dog-whistle politics.
So no, if you criticize Israel because you don't like their tax policy or their ridiculous marriage laws where even atheist couples are forced to go through religious institutions to get married, that's not antisemitic. If you advocate for terrorist groups or neo-nazis that want to exterminate Jews, or you hate Israel based on baseless conspiracy theories that they're "subverting the white race", and you call that "criticism of Israel", it's still antisemitic.
The ADL thinks it's anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, as does AIPAC and Israel says it's anti-Semitic to criticize them. It's not in anyone's mind, there are forces out there that want to hide the truth about israel, which is that it's a place where human rights go to die.
Israel is far from the worst human rights abuser in the world.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:14 amby New Udonia
Vivolkha wrote:Israel is far from the worst human rights abuser in the world.
Not so sure about that one.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:19 amby Gopnikea
Of course not. While it is possible that most criticism of Israel is antisemitic, some criticise Israel due to their conflict with the Palestinians, which are usually Muslims, and some criticise Israel due to their possession of WMDs. Israel also allegedly abuses the human rights.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:25 amby Rojava Free State
Vivolkha wrote:Rojava Free State wrote:The ADL thinks it's anti-Semitic to criticize Israel, as does AIPAC and Israel says it's anti-Semitic to criticize them. It's not in anyone's mind, there are forces out there that want to hide the truth about israel, which is that it's a place where human rights go to die.
Israel is far from the worst human rights abuser in the world.
It's still a human rights abuser, and America still stands by and says nothing while it kills innocent people specifically because of the demographics of the majority of its population.
If Israel wasn't a majority Jewish country, I highly doubt we would be as cool with them as we are
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:25 amby LiberNovusAmericae
Pro-Israeli actors can't handle criticism.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:26 amby Rojava Free State
Gopnikea wrote:Of course not. While it is possible that most criticism of Israel is antisemitic, some criticise Israel due to their conflict with the Palestinians, which are usually Muslims, and some criticise Israel due to their possession of WMDs. Israel also allegedly abuses the human rights.
I doubt it's even most criticism of israel. If the ADL thinks criticizing Israel for oppressing people is antisemitic, then why do they have a page on white nationalist violence? After all, aren't you no longer allowed to criticize other ethnicities at all cause it's racist? Or is that just a one way street?
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:27 amby Rojava Free State
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Pro-Israeli actors can't handle criticism.
People who say it's antisemitic to criticize Israel are like people who say it's racist if you don't like obama. Like seriously what kind of logic is that, and how good was your life that your definition of racism is "people criticizing people who share my culture"
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:34 amby Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory
ממש לא!
Since when?! That's like calling someone a white supremacist because they hated Robert Mugabe!
For the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I propose that the Palestinian authority get their 1948 lands back, with areas that would have been Palestinian but have been settled by Jews becoming neutral zones co-ruled by Israel and Palestine
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:35 amby LiberNovusAmericae
Vassenor wrote:Crockerland wrote:Literally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.
Someone's not been paying attention to UK politics then.
Or American politics, as our Congress constantly passes unconstitutional laws to protect "our greatest ally."
Israel lost its way
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:44 amby United States of Americanas
Israel is portrayed as Gods holy land in the Bible and is portrayed as Gods bride.
The actions Israeli government does and has done are sinful. Not anti Semitic. Sinful.
To kill and pressure people out of your land is a violation of Biblical law. Let the foreigner rest in your land as though they are a native born, shelter them and let them not go hungry let them work a job and be paid their daily stipend on time for you too were all foreigners in Egypt said the LORD.
I have nothing against Jewish people. Therefore I am not an anti Semite.
What I do have a problem with
Israel’s over militarization.
Israel getting too involved in American Politics.
American politicians getting far too involved in Israeli affairs.
It’s time for BDS to become a reality.
Israel is capable of functioning on its own. We do not need to be funneling heaps of cash to a nation run by war mongers who act in direct opposition to Biblical law. Oh what’s that, they use the Torah? Oh guess what. The part I stated is Old Testament / Torahnic Canon!
Let us forgive them of their sins is ≠ let us pay them money so they can continue to willfully sin against the Lord and their neighbor.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:56 amby Heloin
Sapporo Hyperspace Riftgate Laboratory wrote:Since when?! That's like calling someone a white supremacist because they hated Robert Mugabe!
Sounds like a normal day for me.
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 8:58 amby Imbalistan
If it isn't targeting the religion, and only the government, I don't see alot of anti-semetism. Unless of course, your saying "Those frickin' jews who run Israel need to burn, sCrEeE-"
Posted:
Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:01 amby Jabberwocky
Ridiculous. That's like suggesting that disagreeing with trump makes me a traitor ( he thinks it does).