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Is all criticism of Israel antisemitic?

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Myrsovia
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Is all criticism of Israel antisemitic?

Postby Myrsovia » Sat Nov 23, 2019 7:40 pm

Criticism of Israel or of the policies of the Israeli government is not automatically antisemitic. For example, anyone is free to reject or criticise the Israeli government's policy regarding the Palestinian territories. This happens in Israel, too.

Even taking action against Israel or in favour of the Palestinian cause is not automatically hateful towards all Jews and therefore not necessarily a form of antisemitism. In theory, it should be possible to disagree about everything that has to do with the State of Israel. Among Jews, too, opinion is often divided.But it is increasingly difficult to have a proper discussion about 'Zionism' or a normal, critical debate about Israel. Positions have hardened. Emotions run high. Look around on the internet or on social media: Israel is frequently compared to Nazi Germany. You will read things like: what Israel is doing to the Palestinians now is the same as the systematic extermination of Jews by the Nazis during the Second World War.

The comparison is not only inappropriate, it is also wrong and offensive. Although the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians has claimed victims, it cannot be compared to extermination. Making such comparisons really is antisemitic.Criticism of Israel often ties in with antisemitic myths and symbols. You may come across hurtful, hateful cartoons about rich Jews or about Israel pulling the strings behind the scenes. Using those images and symbols to criticise Israel evokes memories of persecutions from the past, of the Holocaust. They fit in with the long history of antisemitism.

https://www.annefrank.org/en/topics/antisemitism/all-criticism-israel-antisemitic/

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:13 pm

No, and anyone Who says it is is either a useful idiot or is a bad faith actor who wants to hide the truth that Israel isn't the nicest little country on earth. This is also why these stupid unconstitutional and un-american anti BDS laws exist in the states. The sooner we call Israel out on its bullshit, the sooner everyone will be better off. I know I'm no racist. Some hypernationalistic zionist calling me one won't change that
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Numenar
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Postby Numenar » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm

Obviously no.

Rick does it when he's drunk. It's just geopolitical.

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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:15 pm

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Postby Kowani » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:18 pm

…Well, that’s just silly.
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Rostavykhan
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Postby Rostavykhan » Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:24 pm

Reminded of a recent event involving Turning Point USA, America First, and Trump Jr. as a speaker, wherein an America First member's criticism of Israel and the US Government's witholding disaster aid from businesses that refuse to sign away their right to speak against Israel was brushed off as Anti-Semitic. Fortunately, that remark wasn't very popular with the rest of the crowd.

Personally, I find it problematic that one would attempt to conflate Anti-Zionism with Anti-Semitism and equate critics of Israel as bigots. It's behaviour I personally often see most from [certain elements of] The Right - establishment types and Evangelicals and the like who obviously benefit in some way from appeasing Israel. It's not something that everyone on The Right is for, however.
 

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Postby Outer Sparta » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:18 pm

Nope. In fact, Israel uses the anti-Semitism card on their critics to deflect from their human rights abuses. Call them out on their occupation of the West Bank? You're an anti-Semite. Standing up for Palestinian human rights? You're an anti-Semite. It's all classic projection.
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Samadhi
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Postby Samadhi » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:19 pm

No, there's plenty to criticize Israel for.
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-Astoria
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Postby -Astoria » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:24 pm

Let me put it politely: no.
At the very least, 5% of criticism.

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Postby Former Citizens of the Nimbus System » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:34 pm

There's definitely overlap, often to the point that it's impossible to find the dividing line in the discourse, but criticism of Israel and antisemitism are not the same thing. Beyond even the point that Israel is not the same thing as Judaism or Jews, antisemitism is a kind of prejudice - bias against the idea and instantiations of 'the Jewish' as a result of their Jewishness. One can be critical even of Judaism itself for legitimate reasons, arguing that the faith is exclusionary or doesn't overcome the problems inherent to monotheism, for example, without being antisemitic. That's two degrees of separation: not only is antisemitism against Jewishness rather than just Israel, it isn't critical either.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:37 pm

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Cetacea
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Postby Cetacea » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:45 am

No, Israel is Anti-Semitic
Last edited by Cetacea on Sun Nov 24, 2019 2:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Nolo gap
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Postby Nolo gap » Sun Nov 24, 2019 1:49 am

Cetacea wrote:No, Israel is Anti-Semitic


that's pretty much what i'm thinking about today's israel.
there was a time, from 1948 to 1967, maybe even up to 1970, i wouldn't have said that,
but net-in-yahoo has really shamed everything israel was supposed to be about.

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Postby SD_Film Artists » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:51 am

No, though it can often turn into anti-Semitism or act as a safe harbour for it.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun Nov 24, 2019 3:56 am

Absolutely not, Israel does a lot of shit that deserves criticism, and criticising Israel does not mean you are anti jewish or any other nonsensical bollocks.
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Postby Aclion » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:00 am

No, that said there are a lot of antisemites that hide under the banner of criticizing israel, and many of the criticisms of israel are inherently antisemitic. So be careful who you associate with and what sort of standards or labels you apply.
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Postby Drongonia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:02 am

No, there are aspects of Israel's behaviour that deserve to be criticised in the same way they would be if any other nation was doing them. Illegal settlements, USS Liberty, Lavon Affair, Samson Option, Actively spying on the US, AIPAC (proudly) influencing US politicians on both sides and the like. If, say... Canada was doing this to the US they would be rightly criticised in the same way.

Religion has nothing to do with it either, and suggesting it does would be the same as someone suggesting that criticising the US makes you Anti-Christian, citicising China makes you anti-Atheist or criticising Italy makes you anti-Catholic.
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:12 am

No, and this is the excuse Israel uses to silence criticism of its gross violations of international law and human rights in Palestine, among others. While antisemitism is a genuine problem in many areas of the world, Israel is not above criticism, as it often seems to think it is.
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Postby Drongonia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:28 am

-Astoria wrote:On another note:
now you've gotta be kidding me...

That has got to be a troll.
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Postby A l b i o n » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:31 am

Israel is a country in the Levant with a myriad of policies, beliefs and institutions that anyone could find disagreeable to varying degrees. I’m pro-Israel but criticising the Israeli state for perceived transgressions or injustices is in no way antisemitic in my view. When you’re targeting the Israeli people then it’s antisemitism.
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Postby Vivolkha » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:50 am

-Astoria wrote:On another note:

now you've gotta be kidding me...

A textbook example of the attitude I'm criticizing.
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Postby Crockerland » Sun Nov 24, 2019 4:58 am

>"The Holocaust didn't happen"
>"Uhh what? That's insane, why would you say-"
>"Wooow can't even criticize Israel these days"


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

Literally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.

Just look at Rostavykhan in this very thread voicing support for the white supremacist "America First" groyper army that harasses TPU speakers for not hating Jews, blacks, and gay people sufficiently.
Rostavykhan wrote:Reminded of a recent event involving Turning Point USA, America First, and Trump Jr. as a speaker, wherein an America First member's criticism of Israel and the US Government's witholding disaster aid from businesses that refuse to sign away their right to speak against Israel was brushed off as Anti-Semitic. Fortunately, that remark wasn't very popular with the rest of the crowd.

Of course it would be lost on the average person not "in the know" that Rostavykhan is referencing the Groyper Army lead by Nick Fuentes, whose Youtube channel "America First" is where the name of the slogan comes from. Nick Fuentes denies the Holocaust, abhors race mixing, and hates people who are not white, and sets loose his Groyper Army on anyone who disagrees, with his main target being Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA.

But if you're against Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and white supremacists, you're against "America First" and "Criticizing Israel". That's the power of hiding reprehensible positions behind an inoffensive slogan, also known as dog-whistle politics.

So no, if you criticize Israel because you don't like their tax policy or their ridiculous marriage laws where even atheist couples are forced to go through religious institutions to get married, that's not antisemitic. If you advocate for terrorist groups or neo-nazis that want to exterminate Jews, or you hate Israel based on baseless conspiracy theories that they're "subverting the white race", and you call that "criticism of Israel", it's still antisemitic.
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Drongonia
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Postby Drongonia » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:07 am

Crockerland wrote:>"The Holocaust didn't happen"
>"Uhh what? That's insane, why would you say-"
>"Wooow can't even criticize Israel these days"


https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Motte_and_bailey

Literally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.

Just look at Rostavykhan in this very thread voicing support for the white supremacist "America First" groyper army that harasses TPU speakers for not hating Jews, blacks, and gay people sufficiently.
Rostavykhan wrote:Reminded of a recent event involving Turning Point USA, America First, and Trump Jr. as a speaker, wherein an America First member's criticism of Israel and the US Government's witholding disaster aid from businesses that refuse to sign away their right to speak against Israel was brushed off as Anti-Semitic. Fortunately, that remark wasn't very popular with the rest of the crowd.

Of course it would be lost on the average person not "in the know" that Rostavykhan is referencing the Groyper Army lead by Nick Fuentes, whose Youtube channel "America First" is where the name of the slogan comes from. Nick Fuentes denies the Holocaust, abhors race mixing, and hates people who are not white, and sets loose his Groyper Army on anyone who disagrees, with his main target being Charlie Kirk of Turning Point USA.

But if you're against Holocaust deniers, neo-nazis, and white supremacists, you're against "America First" and "Criticizing Israel". That's the power of hiding reprehensible positions behind an inoffensive slogan, also known as dog-whistle politics.

So no, if you criticize Israel because you don't like their tax policy or their ridiculous marriage laws where even atheist couples are forced to go through religious institutions to get married, that's not antisemitic. If you advocate for terrorist groups or neo-nazis that want to exterminate Jews, or you hate Israel based on baseless conspiracy theories that they're "subverting the white race", and you call that "criticism of Israel", it's still antisemitic.


Hoooooo boy. I know this isn't the thread here but there's a bit to defend my boy Nick over.
a) He's not a white supremacist - Nick is a mixed-race guy himself and has had multiple superchatters ask him if their race is alright in his future imagined state, and of course he says yes because it wouldn't be an ethno-state. He reaffirms time and time again that he isn't a white nationalist or a white supremacist (he in fact calls them cringe).
b) The only time he continued the Groyper War after the first set of questions was because none of the questions asked were sufficiently answered. Foreign aid to Israel IS a topic that should be debated.
c) You don't seem to be "In the know" about his supposed holocaust denial. He was reading a superchat of a fan, which he even admits was in bad taste - but they were not his words. You can even see him going "oh no... no no no" while he's reading it in the clip. As someone who watches his show daily, he actually doesn't read those sort of superchats anymore, which doesn't seem so on point for a supposed open holocaust denier.
d) He doesn't set his Groyper army loose on anyone he disagrees with, only those who refuse to actually have an open and reasoned debate. In the past few weeks, Nick has gone on many radio shows/podcasts and the interviews have all been reasonable, even among those who don't agree with what he says. Hell, the guy even retweets leftists who say "I don't agree with Fuentes but I think he should be able to speak because free speech"

As a bonus, imagine citing rationalwiki as a source for anything.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:14 am

Crockerland wrote:Literally nobody thinks it's antisemitic to criticize Israel, this is a position that exists only in the minds of people who constantly whine about their alleged inability to do so.


Someone's not been paying attention to UK politics then.
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