MENA category on 2020 Census: should it exist?

[Rojava Free State]

1. Because of European attacks on them, not Arabs committing genocide. Also, it's hard so measure the actually measure the exact numbers of Berbers, Hausa and Fulani because they are nomadic/semi-nomadic people.
2. They have those two because they decided they weren't done bully Morocco, so they stole them before it's independence because they felt like it.So, it was colonialism.
3. While there were "Greek empires" for a vast majority of Ancient Greek history, they were tiny, divided, fractured city states. Even under an empire, they still said, "I'm Athenian", "I'm Ithacan", "I'm Theban", not "I'm Greek".
4. I don't know what site you were on, but Arabs are related Semites, and are Semites. They also speak a Semitic language. They are one of the main Semitic groups.
5. While they are technically part of Africa, they are under European jurisdiction, isolated from the rest of the continent, and the native peoples all but killed off.
6. Same.

Lol the Taqiyyah is strong in you!

But but Morroco was under Spanish colonization, poor Morrocans! Look at the ebul Spaniards!


Looool Mmmmkay as if there weren't several times in history where Morroco practically ruled Spain like in the Almohad Caliphate or the Almoravid Dynasty, lol the Spanish only ruled enclaves in Morroco and in fact only Rechristianizing former Christian areas and you scream muh oppression! Yet FAIL to mention the at least 3 Muslim dynasties from North Africa which ruled Spain. This is in addition to the fact that the Berbers and Arabs abducted Millions of European Christians as slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. We Filipinos were under Spanish Imperialism too and 2/3rds of us were converted from Islam to Christianity, we despise their oppression but at least we don't pretend to be Victims of muh "Spanish Colonization" while conveniently ignoring the fact the Spain has been under at least 3 North African Dynasties or Caliphates.

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

[Rojava Free State]

They. Are. not. Semitic. The berbers do not speak a Semitic language and have been native to North Africa for thousands of years. I don't know why this word is getting so loosely thrown around and being used as a racial term for everyone who looks remotely like DJ Khaled, but #1 Semitic is not a race and #2 berbers are not a Semitic people. They speak the Berber languages (shocking) and Arabic only became a major language in North Africa due to its imposition by Islamic invaders. The Berbers are berber.

I was not calling the Berbers "Semitic": Like my tribe, the Hausa, they are Chado-Berber people. I was referring North Africans who have a lot more Arab ancestry, and even then, I understand that all of them still have Chado-Berber ancestry. No, Semitic isn't a race, but it is an ethnic and linguistic term. As for Arabic, it was mainly adopted to help people learn the Qur'ân and communicate with the Arabs, and exhibits a heavy Berber influence that Most non-Maghrebis have a hard time understanding. Also, thankfully, people are now pushing to get Tamazight taught in schools along side Arabic, and the move has seen some success.

The term you're looking for is afro asiatic. Semites, berbers, cushitic and hausa people speak afro asiatic languages, which are as related to each other as the Russian and Italian are related (they're both indo european)

[Cantelo]

Lol the Taqiyyah is strong in you!

But but Morroco was under Spanish colonization, poor Morrocans! Look at the ebul Spaniards!


Looool Mmmmkay as if there weren't several times in history where Morroco practically ruled Spain like in the Almohad Caliphate or the Almoravid Dynasty, lol the Spanish only ruled enclaves in Morroco and in fact only Rechristianizing former Christian areas and you scream muh oppression! Yet FAIL to mention the at least 3 Muslim dynasties from North Africa which ruled Spain. This is in addition to the fact that the Berbers and Arabs abducted Millions of European Christians as slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. We Filipinos were under Spanish Imperialism too and 2/3rds of us were converted from Islam to Christianity, we despise their oppression but at least we don't pretend to be Victims of muh "Spanish Colonization" while conveniently ignoring the fact the Spain has been under at least 3 North African Dynasties or Caliphates.

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

This is probably pedantic but Arabs didn't colonize Iberia so much as they conquered it and then made them all convert to Islam. A lot of the local nobility was still Visigoth/Iberian and in fact many of the Moors that were banished at the end of the Reconquista + beyond were likely just Iberian Muslims. That isn't to say that there weren't Arabs/Berbers in Iberia, but that they were very much the minority (similarly to the British in India).

[Rojava Free State]

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

This is probably pedantic but Arabs didn't colonize Iberia so much as they conquered it and then made them all convert to Islam. A lot of the local nobility was still Visigoth/Iberian and in fact many of the Moors that were banished at the end of the Reconquista + beyond were likely just Iberian Muslims. That isn't to say that there weren't Arabs/Berbers in Iberia, but that they were very much the minority (similarly to the British in India).

In most places, the people weren't replaced. Lebanese people today share most of their genes with the Phoenicians and syriac peoples and not so much with the Arabian peninsula. Egyptians tend to be genetically related to their ancient counterparts. Tunisian people are berber in descent and many Muslim Spaniards were probably just spanish.

[Vetalia]

I could see it if the demographics were significant enough for it to be an ethnic category like Hispanic/Latino but in terms of racial classification the peoples native to the MENA are part of the same Indo-European ethnic and linguistic groups as everyone else who is considered "white".

[Insaanistan]

I was not calling the Berbers "Semitic": Like my tribe, the Hausa, they are Chado-Berber people. I was referring North Africans who have a lot more Arab ancestry, and even then, I understand that all of them still have Chado-Berber ancestry. No, Semitic isn't a race, but it is an ethnic and linguistic term. As for Arabic, it was mainly adopted to help people learn the Qur'ân and communicate with the Arabs, and exhibits a heavy Berber influence that Most non-Maghrebis have a hard time understanding. Also, thankfully, people are now pushing to get Tamazight taught in schools along side Arabic, and the move has seen some success.

The term you're looking for is afro asiatic. Semites, berbers, cushitic and hausa people speak afro asiatic languages, which are as related to each other as the Russian and Italian are related (they're both indo european)

The Chado-Berber people are Afro-Asiatic, but Hausa and many Berber tongues are actually quite similar (like Spanish and Portuguese), at least in comparison to Arabic.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

11. Jewish

Apart from being a religion, many Jews are also white so we’re gonna have to put a hard “no” on that.

[Napkizemlja]

Personally I think things should remain as is. Why, might you ask? Because you can't have your fucking cake and eat it too. As you yourself admit, people from these regions fought hard to fit it and have themselves recognized as white. Geez, I wonder how many non-white people were tossed under the bus as a result. The adherence to America's racial hierarchy, the support of it, etc. Though I imagine it wasn't particularly hard, given the attitudes towards black people that exists throughout the MENA region and the continued resistance to owning up to historical wrong doings committed by various MENA governments in the past. No sorry, you and your friendos don't get to cry foul, "Oh we stand with our fellows! Hail Malcolm, Hail MLK!" and demand to be recognized as virtuous victims and oppressed brown people after, by your own admission, purposefully and willfully piggybacking off of historical white supremacy that necessitated treating others like shit and falling into line on views towards non-white communities. Yeah it sucks that part of the stick has now snapped back on y'all. Oh well, fucking deal with it. You reap what you sow.

Nice to see you standing by and letting racism and violence happen cause "someone from your group supported racism back in the day."

That's not what I said lmao.

[Insaanistan]

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

This is probably pedantic but Arabs didn't colonize Iberia so much as they conquered it and then made them all convert to Islam. A lot of the local nobility was still Visigoth/Iberian and in fact many of the Moors that were banished at the end of the Reconquista + beyond were likely just Iberian Muslims. That isn't to say that there weren't Arabs/Berbers in Iberia, but that they were very much the minority (similarly to the British in India).

Yeah, the only Moors at first were the soldiers of Tariq ibn Ziyad, and because of this, the second generation of Spanish Muslims was already half European. Yes, Muslims travelled to and from Iberia, but for the most part, the Iberian Muslims were whites who spoke Arabic.

[Isles of Metanoia]

Lol the Taqiyyah is strong in you!

But but Morroco was under Spanish colonization, poor Morrocans! Look at the ebul Spaniards!


Looool Mmmmkay as if there weren't several times in history where Morroco practically ruled Spain like in the Almohad Caliphate or the Almoravid Dynasty, lol the Spanish only ruled enclaves in Morroco and in fact only Rechristianizing former Christian areas and you scream muh oppression! Yet FAIL to mention the at least 3 Muslim dynasties from North Africa which ruled Spain. This is in addition to the fact that the Berbers and Arabs abducted Millions of European Christians as slaves during the Barbary Slave Trade. We Filipinos were under Spanish Imperialism too and 2/3rds of us were converted from Islam to Christianity, we despise their oppression but at least we don't pretend to be Victims of muh "Spanish Colonization" while conveniently ignoring the fact the Spain has been under at least 3 North African Dynasties or Caliphates.

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

Lol man, you know me I logged into Facebook and subscribed to your Insatgram.

You're lecturing me about the Philippines when I am Wikipedia's top contibutor for edits in Philippines related subjects.

https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/ ... hilippines

Manila was under Muslim occupation that's why their leader was called Tariq Sulayman. Manila and Mindanao at least we're unabashedly Muslim. Now it's majority Christian. To deny the Muslim to Christian conversions ever happened is just not based on reality.

[Rojava Free State]

Spain didn't convert you from Islam to christianity. Spain converted you all from polytheistic or animist beliefs to christianity through widespread torture and murder. The Spanish ruined the Philippines and are one of three culprits (the other two being Japan and america) responsible for the epidemic of self hate and skin bleaching seen today in your nation. Spain was colonized by Arabs and berbers. This is a fact. SpAin also enslaved and murdered millions of native peoples worldwide and forced a foreign religion on the same people through violence. Take it from someone whose gene pool is partially spanish, because I also know my genes are partially from the people Spain regarded as disposable resources or problems.

Lol man, you know me I logged into Facebook and subscribed to your Insatgram.

You're lecturing me about the Philippines when I am Wikipedia's top contibutor for edits in Philippines related subjects.

https://xtools.wmflabs.org/articleinfo/ ... hilippines

Manila was under Muslim occupation that's why their leader was called Tariq Sulayman. Manila and Mindanao at least we're unabashedly Muslim. Now it's majority Christian. To deny the Muslim to Christian conversions ever happened is just not based on reality.

I never said they never happened, but most filipinos weren't muslim, and even if they were, what Spain brought wasn't better

[Rojava Free State]

I could see it if the demographics were significant enough for it to be an ethnic category like Hispanic/Latino but in terms of racial classification the peoples native to the MENA are part of the same Indo-European ethnic and linguistic groups as everyone else who is considered "white".

Actually Arabs speak a Semitic language but they're still Caucasian

And Iranians are indo European so at this point they're definitely the same race as at least Italians and Greeks

[USS Monitor]

We should stop asking people's race.

[Kowani]

We should stop asking people's race.

This is a terrible idea with no basis in reality.

[Antarctic Swabia]

Or maybe we could just drop the antiquated racial ideas developed 500 years ago and move on from that utterly destructive period of history...?

No> Makes too much sense? Oh well...

I really support us using culture/ethnicity instead of race on the census. Instead of calling people vague terms like black and white, we need to identify people based on things that truly influence their lives, such as culture

A black american is very different from an African person fresh off the boat. They've been separated for hundreds of years and the two cultures have diverged significantly. This is why I propose that we classify African Americans as "West/Central African heritage American" to distinguish the people we commonly just call black in this country, and create separate boxes for actual Africans based on their countries of origin. We don't classify people based on phenotype but instead based on culture

One weird side effect of this system would be that Paul Wall might end up being classified as African American and the Wu Tang Clan might be asian, but we'll fix that all later.

Our racial categories are too simplistic and cause too much confusion

Finally some sense.
Though the 2020 census does that to some extent, they should really focus on recording national origin and ethnicity. Because it seems that people cannot decide whatever.
Though personally, I'd put MENA under the white category.

[Insaanistan]

I could see it if the demographics were significant enough for it to be an ethnic category like Hispanic/Latino but in terms of racial classification the peoples native to the MENA are part of the same Indo-European ethnic and linguistic groups as everyone else who is considered "white".

Actually Arabs speak a Semitic language but they're still Caucasian

And Iranians are indo European so at this point they're definitely the same race as at least Italians and Greeks

Arabs. Are. Not. White. Yes, they are “Caucasian”, but not in the sense of actually being white.
All Afro-asiatic people are Caucasian, but it’s obvious that they aren’t white. Semitic people are a sub-sub-group if Caucasian. Iranians are indo-Europeans, but they also are Indo-Iranian, and they years isolated from Europe and under Arab control has transformed them. They are no longer really white (despite many having pale skin) and culturally and geographically, they belong in MENA.

[Rojava Free State]

Actually Arabs speak a Semitic language but they're still Caucasian

And Iranians are indo European so at this point they're definitely the same race as at least Italians and Greeks

Arabs. Are. Not. White. Yes, they are “Caucasian”, but not in the sense of actually being white.
All Afro-asiatic people are Caucasian, but it’s obvious that they aren’t white. Semitic people are a sub-sub-group if Caucasian. Iranians are indo-Europeans, but they also are Indo-Iranian, and they years isolated from Europe and under Arab control has transformed them. They are no longer really white (despite many having pale skin) and culturally and geographically, they belong in MENA.

White is a social category dude. Whether they're white or not is in the eye of the beholder. I will tell you that physically many Arabs are indistinguishable not only from southern europeans but even from central or eastern Europeans too. And neither the Iranians or Arabs have been separated from europe. The world was always interconnected and travel and contact occurred between the middle east, Europe and Africa since the dawn of time itself. There is no inherent truth in whether the Arabs are white because whiteness differs in definition between countries and people

I wouldn't say it's remotely obvious they aren't white at all, considering they were white in america up until 9/11. If a terror attack is what changes racial perceptions, then clearly they aren't definitely non white in the eyes of most people like how an Asian or black person is.

[Rojava Free State]

We should stop asking people's race.

This is a terrible idea with no basis in reality.

Why would you wanna keep asking for race? It's a great idea considering race doesn't actually matter

And before you say "but racial inequality," you seem to forget that our racial groups are heavily based around culture and identity and not actual biological reality. Therefore asking about culture as opposed to race would be more inclusive and would better represent real life. A black american and black African are very different. This is why the "Black" category in general is unrepresentative

[Insaanistan]

Arabs. Are. Not. White. Yes, they are “Caucasian”, but not in the sense of actually being white.
All Afro-asiatic people are Caucasian, but it’s obvious that they aren’t white. Semitic people are a sub-sub-group if Caucasian. Iranians are indo-Europeans, but they also are Indo-Iranian, and they years isolated from Europe and under Arab control has transformed them. They are no longer really white (despite many having pale skin) and culturally and geographically, they belong in MENA.

White is a social category dude. Whether they're white or not is in the eye of the beholder. I will tell you that physically many Arabs are indistinguishable not only from southern europeans but even from central or eastern Europeans too. And neither the Iranians or Arabs have been separated from europe. The world was always interconnected and travel and contact occurred between the middle east, Europe and Africa since the dawn of time itself. There is no inherent truth in whether the Arabs are white because whiteness differs in definition between countries and people

I wouldn't say it's remotely obvious they aren't white at all, considering they were white in america up until 9/11. If a terror attack is what changes racial perceptions, then clearly they aren't definitely non white in the eyes of most people like how an Asian or black person is.

Even before that, there were Arabs pushing for them not to be considered white, it just din't gain much power or attention until after 9/11. And when I say separated, I mean that for a vast majority of history, Persians weren't speak Greek or Italian, they were speaking Persian, which was mainly even influenced by Arabic and Sanskrit. Yes there are many, many Arabs that have pale skin and European features, but (the European features at least) originated due to Greek and Roman occupation or colonialism, not a pure, 100 Semitic (yes, they are Semites) Arab ancestry. Race isn't just the skin tone. It's history, genetics, ethnicity and culture.

[Rojava Free State]

White is a social category dude. Whether they're white or not is in the eye of the beholder. I will tell you that physically many Arabs are indistinguishable not only from southern europeans but even from central or eastern Europeans too. And neither the Iranians or Arabs have been separated from europe. The world was always interconnected and travel and contact occurred between the middle east, Europe and Africa since the dawn of time itself. There is no inherent truth in whether the Arabs are white because whiteness differs in definition between countries and people

I wouldn't say it's remotely obvious they aren't white at all, considering they were white in america up until 9/11. If a terror attack is what changes racial perceptions, then clearly they aren't definitely non white in the eyes of most people like how an Asian or black person is.

Even before that, there were Arabs pushing for them not to be considered white, it just din't gain much power or attention until after 9/11. And when I say separated, I mean that for a vast majority of history, Persians weren't speak Greek or Italian, they were speaking Persian, which was mainly even influenced by Arabic and Sanskrit. Yes there are many, many Arabs that have pale skin and European features, but (the European features at least) originated due to Greek and Roman occupation or colonialism, not a pure, 100 Semitic (yes, they are Semites) Arab ancestry. Race isn't just the skin tone. It's history, genetics, ethnicity and culture.

Genes vary through a population, and no group has one haplogroup in their background , and from descriptions I've heard of ancient Semitic peoples, they sound awfully similar in appearance to Europeans

And while Iranians did speak persian, that doesn't make them isolated from the Greeks or Italians anymore than the Germans today are "isolated" from the french. Culture is culture and anyone can join any culture so let's stop using that to determine race unless you wanna count all afro Caribbean brits as white.

[Ifreann]

We should stop asking people's race.

If you do that, how do you identify the effects of racism?

[The Archregimancy]

The Hispanic/Latino category is done about in a stupid way. These should be the US racial categories:

1. White American
2. African-American
3. Foreign/Other White
4. Foreign/Other African (incl. black Caribbean)
5. American Indian
6. Non-US Amerind/Mestizo
7. East Asian
8. South Asian
9. MENA
10. Aboriginal
11. Jewish
12. Other

These aren't meant to reflect the most precise racial and ethnic classifications, but it's just to get a broad sense of the general makeup is.

I'm disappointed that 'Alien / Trans-Dimensional Lizard' isn't an option.

[The Archregimancy]

I could see it if the demographics were significant enough for it to be an ethnic category like Hispanic/Latino but in terms of racial classification the peoples native to the MENA are part of the same Indo-European ethnic and linguistic groups as everyone else who is considered "white".

Actually Arabs speak a Semitic language but they're still Caucasian

And Iranians are indo European so at this point they're definitely the same race as at least Italians and Greeks

More seriously...

Typing from Cairo, I would gently point out some flawed reasoning in the above.

1) Driving from Cairo to Khartoum would raise serious questions about whether all of the people who identify as Arabs you saw along the way could be classified according to the artificial 19th-century racial categorisation 'Caucasian'.

2) The language group spoken is no hard and fast guide to racial identity.

[Antarctic Swabia]

Actually Arabs speak a Semitic language but they're still Caucasian

And Iranians are indo European so at this point they're definitely the same race as at least Italians and Greeks

Arabs. Are. Not. White. Yes, they are “Caucasian”, but not in the sense of actually being white.
All Afro-asiatic people are Caucasian, but it’s obvious that they aren’t white. Semitic people are a sub-sub-group if Caucasian.

Caucasian is white, it's literally synonymous.

Iranians are indo-Europeans, but they also are Indo-Iranian,

Indo-Iranian is a branch of Indo-European.

and they years isolated from Europe and under Arab control has transformed them.

They weren't really "isolated" per say. They did have close contact with the Europeans, especially after the Achaemenid empire formed (Greeks, Rome, slavic tribes, etc).
Also, the Arabs didn't really "transform" them that much. Yes, Islam and Arabic and their culture was forced on the Persians after the Arab invasion of Iran. However, the Iranians did manage to hold on to their culture, language, and identity. And while mass rapes did happen, the Iranian gene-pool wasn't really affected, as that was mostly in the Southwestern part of Iran (Khuzestan).

They are no longer really white (despite many having pale skin)

Lol ok.
Skin color isn't really the only determiner of race. And even then, you literally contradicted yourself in less than a sentence.

and culturally and geographically, they belong in MENA.

Culture and Geography do not necessarily determine race. But hey, I guess you want to virtue signal and get your victim points.

[Antarctic Swabia]

Just because you can’t tell them apart, doesn’t mean everyone can’t. While they and their languages overlapped throughout history a bit, most Arabs and people continuously exposed to them can tell them apart from Mediterranean Europeans, who don’t get me wrong, do often have Arab ancestry.

Except I do live in an area with a large Arab American population and also a large Italian American population and the only way you can tell them apart often is by their clothing. They physically look alike. There's Arabs who don't even look just like Italians but even can pass as brits or French people. The MENA box would only prove more why race is artificial

What I like about Americans is that they expect Middle Easterners as if they're brown, and like a shit-shaded brown. It's funny, because in almost all cases this could be further from the truth. And I love when the virtue signaling idiots get pissed on the internet when they see some light shaded Iranian, as if they're expecting them to be black or whatever the hell.