NationStates

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Various news sources, quoting Hoda Muthana's attorneys, report GW Bush appointee Judge Reggie B. Walton has ruled Hoda Muthana is not a US citizen. Waiting for the written opinon but reports claim Walton declined to challenge the US State Department's assertion they had not received word of Hoda's father's termination of diplomatic status until after her birth.

Questions still to be answered, possibly in the opinion, include on what legal grounds Walton dismissed plaintiff's arguments, not only that Hoda is entitled to birthright US citizenship since her father was not actually a diplomat and thus "subject to the jurisdiction" of the US when she was born, but also that equitable estoppel applies. That is, having issued Hoda a US passport, and Hoda having been eligible to apply for US residence and eventually citizenship just as her older siblings did, the US is now estopped from denying her entry to the US on the grounds that its initial passport issuance was in error.

Count on a quick appeal. imo this Bush appointee judge punted because the plaintiff was Muslim and her citizenship openly and improperly questioned by both the President and Secretary of State.

Hoda should be left to rot in Syria where she belongs for aiding in war crimes and terrorism. She gave up her right to be an American when she turned on everyone and she deserves to never see her homeland again.

Same for Shamima Begum. Leave these ISIS fighters trapped in Syria. They're monsters who had no problem violating human rights but now they demand we recognize theirs.

Rojava Free State wrote:Hoda should be left to rot in Syria where she belongs for aiding in war crimes and terrorism. She gave up her right to be an American when she turned on everyone and she deserves to never see her homeland again.

Same for Shamima Begum. Leave these ISIS fighters trapped in Syria. They're monsters who had no problem violating human rights but now they demand we recognize theirs.

The only way for an individual who acquired US citizenship at birth to lose it is for that person to renounce US citizenship before a consular officer overseas. No other action and no public official can remove that right. I remain confident a higher court will uphold this bedrock principle, established in the Constitution and maintained in the US Courts for over a century. Should the government choose to charge and prosecute her after her return it would be within its rights; but it cannot deny a bona fide citizen the right to return to the US via Tweet.

US-SSR wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Hoda should be left to rot in Syria where she belongs for aiding in war crimes and terrorism. She gave up her right to be an American when she turned on everyone and she deserves to never see her homeland again.

Same for Shamima Begum. Leave these ISIS fighters trapped in Syria. They're monsters who had no problem violating human rights but now they demand we recognize theirs.

The only way for an individual who acquired US citizenship at birth to lose it is for that person to renounce US citizenship before a consular officer overseas. No other action and no public official can remove that right. I remain confident a higher court will uphold this bedrock principle, established in the Constitution and maintained in the US Courts for over a century. Should the government choose to charge and prosecute her after her return it would be within its rights; but it cannot deny a bona fide citizen the right to return to the US via Tweet.

I believe the ruling is that she never was a U.S. citizen, therefore she never had a citizenship of the United States to relinquish or have stripped from her in the first place.

Secondly, judges don't rule via tweet.

Joining a terrorist organization that pillages, rapes, enslaves, and burns people alive in cages is tantamount to treason. Ruling she was never a US citizen, if I understand that that is what has happened, is a moot point as she definitely deserves to lose her citizenship now.

Urran wrote:Joining a terrorist organization that pillages, rapes, enslaves, and burns people alive in cages is tantamount to treason. Ruling she was never a US citizen, if I understand that that is what has happened, is a moot point as she definitely deserves to lose her citizenship now.

Treason really is a dumb word, no country deserves absolute loyalty.

Until I see the judgement however I'll refrain from making kneejerk assumptions based on the political leanings of the judge. However, I agree with the OP that if she ever had united states citizenship she should be allowed to return to the united states.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Until I see the judgement however I'll refrain from making kneejerk assumptions based on the political leanings of the judge. However, I agree with the OP that if she ever had united states citizenship she should be allowed to return to the united states.

Well, I can agree with that, but it IS a law that you lose your US citizenship by joining a foreign military. Joining a militant terrorist organization certainly fits, especially since ISIS wishes to create a caliphate, which is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state.

Urran wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Until I see the judgement however I'll refrain from making kneejerk assumptions based on the political leanings of the judge. However, I agree with the OP that if she ever had united states citizenship she should be allowed to return to the united states.

Well, I can agree with that, but it IS a law that you lose your US citizenship by joining a foreign military. Joining a militant terrorist organization certainly fits, especially since ISIS wishes to create a caliphate, which is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state.

Strange that, they're a military when it suits America to class them as one, but not when it doesn't. Like treating their captured soldiers as prisoners of war, for example.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Strange that, they're a military when it suits America to class them as one, but not when it doesn't. Like treating their captured soldiers as prisoners of war, for example.

I'm not the US government. I just call it as I see it.

US-SSR wrote:

Rojava Free State wrote:Hoda should be left to rot in Syria where she belongs for aiding in war crimes and terrorism. She gave up her right to be an American when she turned on everyone and she deserves to never see her homeland again.

Same for Shamima Begum. Leave these ISIS fighters trapped in Syria. They're monsters who had no problem violating human rights but now they demand we recognize theirs.

The only way for an individual who acquired US citizenship at birth to lose it is for that person to renounce US citizenship before a consular officer overseas.

Does it count if that consular officer watches through a television screen ? After all, she did renounce it publicly on tv, shredding and burning her passport and all.

The Alma Mater wrote:

US-SSR wrote:
The only way for an individual who acquired US citizenship at birth to lose it is for that person to renounce US citizenship before a consular officer overseas.

Does it count if that consular officer watches through a television screen ? After all, she did renounce it publicly on tv, shredding and burning her passport and all.

It has to be in person, and you have to sign something.

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel ... broad.html

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Urran wrote:
Well, I can agree with that, but it IS a law that you lose your US citizenship by joining a foreign military. Joining a militant terrorist organization certainly fits, especially since ISIS wishes to create a caliphate, which is for all intents and purposes a theocratic state.

Strange that, they're a military when it suits America to class them as one, but not when it doesn't. Like treating their captured soldiers as prisoners of war, for example.

Yeah, let's think about the human rights of people who have no regard for them...

Littoral Novoroma wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Strange that, they're a military when it suits America to class them as one, but not when it doesn't. Like treating their captured soldiers as prisoners of war, for example.

Yeah, let's think about the human rights of people who have no regard for them...

Like the federal government?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Littoral Novoroma wrote:
Yeah, let's think about the human rights of people who have no regard for them...

Like the federal government?

You are comparing the Federal Government to mass murdering war criminals?

Littoral Novoroma wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Like the federal government?

You are comparing the Federal Government to mass murdering war criminals?

This is just too easy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Littoral Novoroma wrote:
You are comparing the Federal Government to mass murdering war criminals?

This is just too easy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

Having civilians die as collateral damage is not the same as lining them up in ditches and shooting them, cutting off their heads, enslaving them, ...

The Federal Government did not conspire to eliminate civilians, a thing which can not be said for these maniacs.

Littoral Novoroma wrote:

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
This is just too easy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War

Having civilians die as collateral damage is not the same as lining them up in ditches and shooting them, cutting off their heads, enslaving them, ...

The Federal Government did not conspire to eliminate civilians, a thing which can not be said for these maniacs.

What do you think happened in CIA black sites? Do you think they just got lonely so decided to invite a lot of the locals over for tea and biscuits?

Urran wrote:Joining a terrorist organization that pillages, rapes, enslaves, and burns people alive in cages is tantamount to treason. Ruling she was never a US citizen, if I understand that that is what has happened, is a moot point as she definitely deserves to lose her citizenship now.

No it is not. Joining a group that does evil does not make you a traitor. Joining a foreign military group directly in conflict with your nation and its military however is. And not just tantamount to but literal treason. The western world is in war with ISIS, whether we call it war or not. And thus anyone who joins ISIS is no different than someone running off to join the germans during WW2. It's joining the military of a foreign power at war with your nation. And that is treason by definition.

Purpelia wrote:

Urran wrote:Joining a terrorist organization that pillages, rapes, enslaves, and burns people alive in cages is tantamount to treason. Ruling she was never a US citizen, if I understand that that is what has happened, is a moot point as she definitely deserves to lose her citizenship now.

No it is not. Joining a group that does evil does not make you a traitor. Joining a foreign military group directly in conflict with your nation and its military however is. And not just tantamount to but literal treason. The western world is in war with ISIS, whether we call it war or not. And thus anyone who joins ISIS is no different than someone running off to join the germans during WW2. It's joining the military of a foreign power at war with your nation. And that is treason by definition.

Had the united states engaged isis when she joined?
And did she actually serve in the military?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Littoral Novoroma wrote:
Having civilians die as collateral damage is not the same as lining them up in ditches and shooting them, cutting off their heads, enslaving them, ...

The Federal Government did not conspire to eliminate civilians, a thing which can not be said for these maniacs.

What do you think happened in CIA black sites? Do you think they just got lonely so decided to invite a lot of the locals over for tea and biscuits?

The CIA interrogating potential terrorists and insurgents by questionable means is now equal to having all the males in a village massacred and all the women made into sex slaves?

Purpelia wrote:No it is not. Joining a group that does evil does not make you a traitor. Joining a foreign military group directly in conflict with your nation and its military however is. And not just tantamount to but literal treason. The western world is in war with ISIS, whether we call it war or not. And thus anyone who joins ISIS is no different than someone running off to join the germans during WW2. It's joining the military of a foreign power at war with your nation. And that is treason by definition.

I'd argue that ISIS doesn't just do evil, but are evil to the very core, but your point is essentially the same as mine. She essentially joined the Islamic SS.

Good. If you join ISIS, you're pretty much forfeiting any chance of U.S. citizenship.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Purpelia wrote:No it is not. Joining a group that does evil does not make you a traitor. Joining a foreign military group directly in conflict with your nation and its military however is. And not just tantamount to but literal treason. The western world is in war with ISIS, whether we call it war or not. And thus anyone who joins ISIS is no different than someone running off to join the germans during WW2. It's joining the military of a foreign power at war with your nation. And that is treason by definition.

Had the united states engaged isis when she joined?
And did she actually serve in the military?

They were at war with the US the millisecond they were formed.

She openly advocated for more people to join the fight there and for those that remain to start terrorist attacks. What do you think she'll do in the US other than continue this behavior?

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:

Purpelia wrote:No it is not. Joining a group that does evil does not make you a traitor. Joining a foreign military group directly in conflict with your nation and its military however is. And not just tantamount to but literal treason. The western world is in war with ISIS, whether we call it war or not. And thus anyone who joins ISIS is no different than someone running off to join the germans during WW2. It's joining the military of a foreign power at war with your nation. And that is treason by definition.

Had the united states engaged isis when she joined?
And did she actually serve in the military?

#1. is a valid question. Not. Americans who joined the nazi military before america entered WW2 are still traitors for fighting against their homeland.
#2. You don't have to be in the military to be a traitor by joining a foreign one.

Also to add: #3. OTAN should really just get their heads out of their behinds and hit ISIS WW2 style and just level them all. Kill everything, burn them to the ground, salt the earth. And than clean up anyone associated with them at home using bayonets to save on bullets.

Good riddance.