Federal Judge Reportedly Rules Hoda Muthana Not US Citizen

[Prismos]

I’ve been to the US many times.

My point is if a nation tried to push extremists onto yours, it would be an entirely different story.

Wasn’t it Trump who said the UK needs to deal with its own extremists like Shamima Begum, and here you are now not dealing with yours?

Thing is in a reversed scenario these extremists would have killed thousands of Americans.

Anyway, I'm all for us dealing with her, and any other American supporter of ISIS. Plenty of jail cells and courtyards.

And don’t you think she was part of an organisation that killed thousands of Syrians? And you’d rather her stay in Syria or Turkey or Yemen? It’s the worst Western hypocrisy.

[Gormwood]

And the question nobody wants to answer: What exactly did Hoda Muthana do in ISIS?

Why does this matter?

Because I could have sworn American values included not convicting people on guilt by association alone. Would have thought the Red Scare might have taught that lesson.

[Sovaal]

Plenty of traitors in the West have been executed for treason. And she supported a "nation" hostile to the US, which last I checked was how our constitution defined treason.

I don't usually support execution but in cases where they supported such a despicable cause I can't come up with any objections.

I find executions and death, just satisfying Daesh.

lol

Part of the reason why the hate us is our Western values is because we are liberal and many Western nations don’t have the death penalty.

I don't think that's even close as to why IS hates us.

We shouldn’t go down to their level.

By that metric we shouldn't have nay military involvement against them then.

Sometimes to fight a threat you do have to get closer to their level. I'm not saying we should wage ethnic and religious cleansing as they did, but rather that executing western jihadists for being traitors and war criminals isn't something that should be thrown out the window.

[Gormwood]

And the question nobody wants to answer: What exactly did Hoda Muthana do in ISIS?

Recruiter, iirc.

If there's proof then she needs to be tried in the U.S. for that. Treating her like an actual front line fighter or terror operative is a bit ridiculous.

[Sovaal]

Thing is in a reversed scenario these extremists would have killed thousands of Americans.

Anyway, I'm all for us dealing with her, and any other American supporter of ISIS. Plenty of jail cells and courtyards.

And don’t you think she was part of an organisation that killed thousands of Syrians? And you’d rather her stay in Syria or Turkey or Yemen? It’s the worst Western hypocrisy.

You're not listening to me.
Not once did I say she should remain in Syria, let alone mentioning Yemen. That's you.
What I said is that it's not Western hypocrisy because if the situation was reversed we would gladly deal with the extremists.

Might want to work on your reading comprehension.

[Prismos]

I find executions and death, just satisfying Daesh.

lol

Part of the reason why the hate us is our Western values is because we are liberal and many Western nations don’t have the death penalty.

I don't think that's even close as to why IS hates us.

We shouldn’t go down to their level.

By that metric we shouldn't have nay military involvement against them then.

Sometimes to fight a threat you do have to get closer to their level. I'm not saying we should wage ethnic and religious cleansing as they did, but rather that executing western jihadists for being traitors and war criminals isn't something that should be thrown out the window.

Executing solves nothing and makes them a martyr. My point was the fact that they hate Western values such as liberalism and right to a fair trial and imprisonment. That doesn’t negate being at war with them but even in war you abide by the Geneva Convention.

[Balican]

Why does this matter?

Because I could have sworn American values included not convicting people on guilt by association alone. Would have thought the Red Scare might have taught that lesson.

That's some nice pilpul right there. That phrase doesn't exactly apply to this situation.

[Kaystein]

I mean, children of diplomats have never been considered citizens as far as I can recall. It doesn’t come up often, but I can’t recall any diplomat having a kid that became a us citizen via jus soli.

And while scotus is subservient to the constitution, it also interprets the constitution, and based on its 120 year old ruling, it would appear that kids of diplomats are excluded.

Also, we’ve discussed this case on NS before.

So you're telling me the 1898 case came from the internet?

Did the judge cite that particular case in their ruling/conclusion, or not?

[Sovaal]

If they had joined a far right white extremist terrorist group fighting a war and slaughtering thousands of people would we ask what they did in said organization?

Because despite what you clap your hands to believe, there's a difference between being a front line fighter or planner and being a war bride.

Still willingly supporting an organization that is literally founded on waging war and extermination against non-believers, let alone all the other shit they do as a side jig. And in my eyes that's still a crime. Same with those traitors from Allied nations who supported the Nazis during the Second World War, many of whom where executed, and rightly so imho, for it.

[Prismos]

And don’t you think she was part of an organisation that killed thousands of Syrians? And you’d rather her stay in Syria or Turkey or Yemen? It’s the worst Western hypocrisy.

You're not listening to me.
Not once did I say she should remain in Syria, let alone mentioning Yemen. That's you.
What I said is that it's not Western hypocrisy because if the situation was reversed we would gladly deal with the extremists.

Might want to work on your reading comprehension.

The point is the US is not dealing with its own extremists. It would rather palm them off to other nations contrary what Donnie says.

[Gormwood]

Because despite what you clap your hands to believe, there's a difference between being a front line fighter or planner and being a war bride.

Still willingly supporting an organization that is literally founded on waging war and extermination against non-believers, let alone all the other shit they do as a side jig. And in my eyes that's still a crime. Same with those traitors from Allied nations who supported the Nazis during the Second World War, many of whom where executed, and rightly so imho, for it.

They hung cafeteria workers at Nurnberg?

[Balican]

Still willingly supporting an organization that is literally founded on waging war and extermination against non-believers, let alone all the other shit they do as a side jig. And in my eyes that's still a crime. Same with those traitors from Allied nations who supported the Nazis during the Second World War, many of whom where executed, and rightly so imho, for it.

They hung cafeteria workers at Nurnberg?

Bookkeepers and accountants.

[Sovaal]

Because I could have sworn American values included not convicting people on guilt by association alone. Would have thought the Red Scare might have taught that lesson.

That's some nice pilpul right there. That phrase doesn't exactly apply to this situation.

>Literally and willingly joins an infamous terrorist organization well known for it's war crimes and terrorism
>Don't you dare call them a terrorist!

Sometimes this site makes me wonder.

[Sovaal]

Still willingly supporting an organization that is literally founded on waging war and extermination against non-believers, let alone all the other shit they do as a side jig. And in my eyes that's still a crime. Same with those traitors from Allied nations who supported the Nazis during the Second World War, many of whom where executed, and rightly so imho, for it.

They hung cafeteria workers at Nurnberg?

Maybe. And wouldn't blame them. Imho they didn't hang enough Nazi officials after the war as was.

[Balican]

That's some nice pilpul right there. That phrase doesn't exactly apply to this situation.

>Literally and willingly joins an infamous terrorist organization well known for it's war crimes and terrorism
>Don't you dare call them a terrorist!

Sometimes this site makes me wonder.

Maybe that phrase means a different thing in my neck of the woods, but that wasn't exactly the intention of that post. Also
>using meme arrows
>on another site

[Sovaal]

>Literally and willingly joins an infamous terrorist organization well known for it's war crimes and terrorism
>Don't you dare call them a terrorist!

Sometimes this site makes me wonder.

Maybe that phrase means a different thing in my neck of the woods, but that wasn't exactly the intention of that post. Also
>using meme arrows
>on another site

Really don't care. Guilt by association regardless applies to the exact opposite of what this situation is, despite what Gauth is trying to paint it as.

[Prismos]

I mean, children of diplomats have never been considered citizens as far as I can recall. It doesn’t come up often, but I can’t recall any diplomat having a kid that became a us citizen via jus soli.

And while scotus is subservient to the constitution, it also interprets the constitution, and based on its 120 year old ruling, it would appear that kids of diplomats are excluded.

Also, we’ve discussed this case on NS before.

So you're telling me the 1898 case came from the internet?

Did the judge cite that particular case in their ruling/conclusion, or not?

Whether she was a US citizen at the time of birth is quite irrelevant on an international level now because that should’ve been sorted out while she lived most of her life in New Jersey and Alabama. If she had not have gone to Syria, would we seriously be having discussions about her citizenship, seems like it’s a last ditch effort from the Obama and Trump administration to find a caveat to not letting her back.

[Balican]

Maybe that phrase means a different thing in my neck of the woods, but that wasn't exactly the intention of that post. Also
>using meme arrows
>on another site

Really don't care. Guilt by association regardless applies to the exact opposite of what this situation is, despite what Gauth is trying to paint it as.

I'm not trying to disagree with you here. She is guilty by implication and not just association.

[Galloism]

I mean, children of diplomats have never been considered citizens as far as I can recall. It doesn’t come up often, but I can’t recall any diplomat having a kid that became a us citizen via jus soli.

And while scotus is subservient to the constitution, it also interprets the constitution, and based on its 120 year old ruling, it would appear that kids of diplomats are excluded.

Also, we’ve discussed this case on NS before.

So you're telling me the 1898 case came from the internet?

Did the judge cite that particular case in their ruling/conclusion, or not?

The ruling was delivered from the bench. A written ruling will follow in the next few days.

[Sovaal]

lol

I don't think that's even close as to why IS hates us.

By that metric we shouldn't have nay military involvement against them then.

Sometimes to fight a threat you do have to get closer to their level. I'm not saying we should wage ethnic and religious cleansing as they did, but rather that executing western jihadists for being traitors and war criminals isn't something that should be thrown out the window.

Executing solves nothing and makes them a martyr.

Then lock her in a cell and throw away the key.
Or dump the body in the ocean like we did with bin Laden.

My point was the fact that they hate Western values such as liberalism and right to a fair trial and imprisonment.

Never said don't give her a fair trial. Thing is however, even she admits that she joined ISIS.

That doesn’t negate being at war with them but even in war you abide by the Geneva Convention.

Last I checked the Geneva conventions didn't apply to non-state actors and terrorist organizations, or traitors. Could be wrong however.

[Galloism]

Recruiter, iirc.

If there's proof then she needs to be tried in the U.S. for that. Treating her like an actual front line fighter or terror operative is a bit ridiculous.

I mean, maybe. According to the judge’s ruling, it would appear she’s not a US citizen, and should be tried in Yemen for that.

I’m sure an appeal will rapidly follow the written ruling.

[Prismos]

Executing solves nothing and makes them a martyr.

Then lock her in a cell and throw away the key.
Or dump the body in the ocean like we did with bin Laden.

My point was the fact that they hate Western values such as liberalism and right to a fair trial and imprisonment.

Never said don't give her a fair trial. Thing is however, even she admits that she joined ISIS.

That doesn’t negate being at war with them but even in war you abide by the Geneva Convention.

Last I checked the Geneva conventions didn't apply to non-state actors and terrorist organizations, or traitors. Could be wrong however.

The Geneva convention applies to all enemy combatants at a time of war.

[Kaystein]

So you're telling me the 1898 case came from the internet?

Did the judge cite that particular case in their ruling/conclusion, or not?

The ruling was delivered from the bench. A written ruling will follow in the next few days.

Is it me or does it seem like neither side really put 100% effort into the case?

[Galloism]

The ruling was delivered from the bench. A written ruling will follow in the next few days.

Is it me or does it seem like neither side really put 100% effort into the case?

It doesn’t help that both her and her father were notified of the citizenship issue in January of 2016, and they both failed to contest until just now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoda_Muthana

Thanks Obama.

[Prismos]

I think we are on the same page if you think she should have a fair trial.

Ideally no extremist should return to the country they came from however we have to abide by international law and rules. It works both ways.

If the US wanted to deport extremists to a country of origin, they should be allowed to.