A discussion on Juche apologist

[Spiritual Republic of Caryton]

Normally I won't talk about these kinds of things-- but why do you feel that people sympathizing with the Juche Ideology is an issue, at all? Really, I believe you're using this as an excuse to be not only judgemental, but advocate for something against said followers of said political ideology-- while covering it up with a benevolent attitude. Really, it shouldn't be something you talk about on a NS forum-- at all.

As for the question at hand, Juche is an ideology I am relatively neutral towards. You claim nationalism is bad-- which the term itself is overly generalized, and you seem to blatantly use the "the DPRK is hell" bull from the west despite the fact that the west was the country that isolated and starved the DPRK in the first place, not out of human rights but out of blatant meddling and regime change-- which the countries involved are famous for. It's a big brain moment that to me, the only countries listed as rouge nations are ones that refuse to accept the --american dominated-- ideals of globalization and the international banks. Furthermore, despite the fact that several defectors are honest-- that south Korea has paid a recorded amount of equivalent of 800,000 USD for defector stories, and some defectors like Yeonmi Park are blatant liars who are obviously using their fame to get a hold of it.

Rather than criticizing others for being Jucheist sympathizers-- which you so graciously do-- you seem to be covering for something else entirely.

I suggest you also research the stories that the world media put out, recalled, and gave a half-hearted apology for telling false infortmation.

Furthermore, if you wish to know why the regime is so hostile-- the American government claims to have killed off 20% of the population in the Korean war, actively tried to starve the DPRK twice-- once during the Korean War and once during the arduous march (despite the DPRK wanting to open its economy up in the first place by joining the IMF). That is why Kim Jong-Il strengthened Songun in the first place, and assisted nuclear development. The country is patriotic and its leaders were voted in-- admittedly partially because of the bloodline but merely out of "Kim Jong Il was the best example of Kim Il-Sung" and so on. The country desires economic self-sufficiency and trade with the world-- so long as its independence and identity isn't brought to knee.

Juche is a clearly flawed ideology, but we must remember that it's one of the last pieces of identity that broken and unfortunate country has. People defend it admittedly because it's the last bastion of independence in this modern and increasingly one-sided world-- even if there are the cringe-worthy "kim did nothing wrong" people. The DPRK is only isolated because the world made it so. The country is hostile because it did not forget their past (first the genocides of the Japanese rule that Kim Il-Sung fought against, and then the atrocities from both sides of the Korean war). The country pursues nukes because they do not want to cede what little they have of themselves.

[Kowani]

If it actually worked, maybe.

Oops, Kowani's getting involved in a thread about the Korean Peninsula... Better pile in now!

All politics are of importance.

[Sovaal]

I'm pretty sure that the Norks will take defectors from the decedent west. People who support the regime in North Korea are always free to move there.

[Rojava Free State]

All authoritarianism is a danger. I don't like the current plutocracy that is America but jesus, I don't wanna be in North Korea

Authoritarianism is on a spectrum... But uh yeah.

Not to mention, authoritarianism by an inbred, decadent, entitled gang of bloated wannabe aristocrats ruling over something that's less of a country and more of a giant prison camp.

Never said it's not a spectrum. In fact, that's the whole point. America is a freer and more prosperous nation than North korea. It doesn't mean things are awesome here but there isn't many places worse than North Korea

[LiberNovusAmericae]

The country is patriotic and its leaders were voted in-- admittedly partially because of the bloodline but merely out of "Kim Jong Il was the best example of Kim Il-Sung" and so on.

They're "voted in" by show elections. It is a dictatorship.

[Sovaal]

Normally I won't talk about these kinds of things-- but why do you feel that people sympathizing with the Juche Ideology is an issue, at all? Really, I believe you're using this as an excuse to be not only judgemental, but advocate for something against said followers of said political ideology-- while covering it up with a benevolent attitude. Really, it shouldn't be something you talk about on a NS forum-- at all.

As for the question at hand, Juche is an ideology I am relatively neutral towards. You claim nationalism is bad-- which the term itself is overly generalized, and you seem to blatantly use the "the DPRK is hell" bull from the west despite the fact that the west was the country that isolated and starved the DPRK in the first place, not out of human rights but out of blatant meddling and regime change-- which the countries involved are famous for. It's a big brain moment that to me, the only countries listed as rouge nations are ones that refuse to accept the --american dominated-- ideals of globalization and the international banks. Furthermore, despite the fact that several defectors are honest-- that south Korea has paid a recorded amount of equivalent of 800,000 USD for defector stories, and some defectors like Yeonmi Park are blatant liars who are obviously using their fame to get a hold of it.

Rather than criticizing others for being Jucheist sympathizers-- which you so graciously do-- you seem to be covering for something else entirely.

I suggest you also research the stories that the world media put out, recalled, and gave a half-hearted apology for telling false infortmation.

Furthermore, if you wish to know why the regime is so hostile-- the American government claims to have killed off 20% of the population in the Korean war, actively tried to starve the DPRK twice-- once during the Korean War and once during the arduous march (despite the DPRK wanting to open its economy up in the first place by joining the IMF). That is why Kim Jong-Il strengthened Songun in the first place, and assisted nuclear development. The country is patriotic and its leaders were voted in-- admittedly partially because of the bloodline but merely out of "Kim Jong Il was the best example of Kim Il-Sung" and so on. The country desires economic self-sufficiency and trade with the world-- so long as its independence and identity isn't brought to knee.

Juche is a clearly flawed ideology, but we must remember that it's one of the last pieces of identity that broken and unfortunate country has. People defend it admittedly because it's the last bastion of independence in this modern and increasingly one-sided world-- even if there are the cringe-worthy "kim did nothing wrong" people. The DPRK is only isolated because the world made it so. The country is hostile because it did not forget their past (first the genocides of the Japanese rule that Kim Il-Sung fought against, and then the atrocities from both sides of the Korean war). The country pursues nukes because they do not want to cede what little they have of themselves.

Because it actively kills innocent people, the exact same problem that fascism has. And funny enough many of the arguments that you make in defense of North Korea can be applied to Nazi Germany, and frankly that makes them shit arguments imho.

[Rojava Free State]

I'm pretty sure that the Norks will take defectors from the decedent west. People who support the regime in North Korea are always free to move there.

Notice how no one is crossing the Korean version of the Berlin wall unless they're trying to escape North Korea

[Konolas]

You claim nationalism is bad-- which the term itself is overly generalized.

Finally someone said it.
Here is the definition of Naionalism:
«Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.»
Or:
«Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.»
Nationalism is very over generalized it just means that you love a nation. You can also call it patriotism

[Petrolheadia]

One thing you are mistaking is assuming that just because something absolutely positively and undeniably is propaganda that must mean it's not true. Truth is, between the unjust and disgusting sanctions imposed by the west and the reality of them being a fascist feudal monarchy there probably is some truth to those criticisms. But it's also true that they are indeed propaganda.

Nothing unjust about prohibiting trade with a dictatorship. If anything we should do it more with other countries.

I'd say blocking trade hurts the people more than the government. The government will survive the crisis, the people will be stuck with a financial crisis and an oppressive government.

In my opinion, it's better to wait until it collapses without outside influence.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Nothing unjust about prohibiting trade with a dictatorship. If anything we should do it more with other countries.

I'd say blocking trade hurts the people more than the government. The government will survive the crisis, the people will be stuck with a financial crisis and an oppressive government.

In my opinion, it's better to wait until it collapses without outside influence.

It wouldn't hurt the people of the government stopped hurting the people too. It's nobody's fault but the NK government's that its people suffers.

[West Leas Oros 2]

To be fair, a lot of leftist regions and nations on NS engage in imperialistic conquest or rampant authoritarianism.

[Petrolheadia]

I'd say blocking trade hurts the people more than the government. The government will survive the crisis, the people will be stuck with a financial crisis and an oppressive government.

In my opinion, it's better to wait until it collapses without outside influence.

It wouldn't hurt the people of the government stopped hurting the people too. It's nobody's fault but the NK government's that its people suffers.

They won't leave just because of some economic inconvenience. North Korea is in the dumps and they are still there.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

It wouldn't hurt the people of the government stopped hurting the people too. It's nobody's fault but the NK government's that its people suffers.

They won't leave just because of some economic inconvenience. North Korea is in the dumps and they are still there.

Obviously. There's a mine field between them and freedom after all.

[Petrolheadia]

They won't leave just because of some economic inconvenience. North Korea is in the dumps and they are still there.

Obviously. There's a mine field between them and freedom after all.

And trade sanctions won't fix North Korea. They will only make it even worse.

[Novus America]

Obviously. There's a mine field between them and freedom after all.

And trade sanctions won't fix North Korea. They will only make it even worse.

Ending trade sanctions would make it worse. It would just make the regime wealthier and stronger. Give it more and better weapons. Using their economic leverage to shut down free speech worldwide.

See the PRC. In the 80s and before they were oppressive but no credible threat. They are still just as oppressive now but far more dangerous.

The only way for the more free countries to survive is to economically separate themselves from the most oppressive ones.

[Luziyca]

I'm pretty sure that the Norks will take defectors from the decedent west. People who support the regime in North Korea are always free to move there.

Notice how no one is crossing the Korean version of the Berlin wall unless they're trying to escape North Korea

Nowadays. I think historically, there've been plenty of defectors to North Korea. *cough* Joe Dresnok *cough*

[Petrolheadia]

And trade sanctions won't fix North Korea. They will only make it even worse.

Ending trade sanctions would make it worse. It would just make the regime wealthier and stronger. Give it more and better weapons. Using their economic leverage to shut down free speech worldwide.

See the PRC. In the 80s and before they were oppressive but no credible threat. They are still just as oppressive now but far more dangerous.

The only way for the more free countries to survive is to economically separate themselves from the most oppressive ones.

You seem to forget around a billion people, if not more, lifted from abject poverty. Freedom is nice, but you can't eat it and it does not buy you a damn thing.

[Novus America]

Notice how no one is crossing the Korean version of the Berlin wall unless they're trying to escape North Korea

Nowadays. I think historically, there've been plenty of defectors to North Korea. *cough* Joe Dresnok *cough*

There were a few. Though only 6 defected from the US to the North after the war.

Actually North Korea was historically the wealthy and developed part, while the south the agrarian backwater. The South did not become wealthy until the 60s, and did not develop a stable working democracy until the late 80s.

So during and right after the war, the South was not that much better. But the South first economically and then politically reformed. While the North remained mired in its neo feudal idiocy.

[Novus America]

Ending trade sanctions would make it worse. It would just make the regime wealthier and stronger. Give it more and better weapons. Using their economic leverage to shut down free speech worldwide.

See the PRC. In the 80s and before they were oppressive but no credible threat. They are still just as oppressive now but far more dangerous.

The only way for the more free countries to survive is to economically separate themselves from the most oppressive ones.

You seem to forget around a billion people, if not more, lifted from abject poverty. Freedom is nice, but you can't eat it and it does not buy you a damn thing.

Sure it economically benefited many people, (though most people there still remain poor) but caused huge harms to other people. And you can have freedom AND wealth.

What if we had lifted India instead? We would have benefited just as many people but at a much lower cost to freedom.

You cannot have freedom and totalitarian oppression.

We already had wealth AND freedom in the free world, why should we want to surrender our freedom to make dictatorships a bit wealthier?

And the authoritarian regimes can develop on their own terms under my system.

Just not at the expense of the more free world. We need to quarantine our political and economic systems from those who seek to use them against us.

Otherwise what do we get? A whole world of middle income dictatorship? Sure that is better for the people in the poor dictatorships than what they have now, but far worse for those not in a poor dictatorship.

[Petrolheadia]

You seem to forget around a billion people, if not more, lifted from abject poverty. Freedom is nice, but you can't eat it and it does not buy you a damn thing.

Sure it economically benefited many people, (though most people there still remain poor) but caused huge harms to other people. And you can have freedom AND wealth.

What if we had lifted India instead? We would have benefited just as many people but at a much lower cost to freedom.

You cannot have freedom and totalitarian oppression.

We already had wealth AND freedom in the free world, why should we want to surrender our freedom to make dictatorships a bit wealthier?

And the authoritarian regimes can develop on their own terms under my system.

Just not at the expense of the more free world. We need to quarantine our political and economic systems from those who seek to use them against us.

Otherwise what do we get? A whole world of middle income dictatorship? Sure that is better for the people in the poor dictatorships than what they have now, but far worse for those not in a poor dictatorship.

Lifted? We did not lift China, China lifted itself with the work of the Chinese under a capitalist system.

And you're going to impoverish people just because you don't like the government they don't have a say in? That's actually very casually cruel.

[Novus America]

Sure it economically benefited many people, (though most people there still remain poor) but caused huge harms to other people. And you can have freedom AND wealth.

What if we had lifted India instead? We would have benefited just as many people but at a much lower cost to freedom.

You cannot have freedom and totalitarian oppression.

We already had wealth AND freedom in the free world, why should we want to surrender our freedom to make dictatorships a bit wealthier?

And the authoritarian regimes can develop on their own terms under my system.

Just not at the expense of the more free world. We need to quarantine our political and economic systems from those who seek to use them against us.

Otherwise what do we get? A whole world of middle income dictatorship? Sure that is better for the people in the poor dictatorships than what they have now, but far worse for those not in a poor dictatorship.

Lifted? We did not lift China, China lifted itself with the work of the Chinese under a capitalist system.

And you're going to impoverish people just because you don't like the government they don't have a say in? That's actually very casually cruel.

Bullshit.
The PRC economy is built on predatory mercantilism.
https://itif.org/publications/2018/02/2 ... industries

How they became a manufacturing behemoth is simple, they target a specific industry, most notably steel, solar panels, aluminum and shipbuilding, although now they are moving into industries higher up the value chain like semiconductors.

The government then subsidizes gross overcapacity and dumping to destroy that industry in other countries. Then it buys up the companies and factories it drove out of business by dumping, strips their technology, equipment and assets and ships them to the PRC.

Destroying cities and communities in the process.
That is how the PRC brought most those people out of poverty.

At a huge cost. Causing other people to fall into poverty.

Moreover your argument completely contradicts itself! If they can do it on their own then why do they need access to our technology and markets?!

Fine, let them do it by their own work. I am fine with that. By making things to sell on their own market, or to their satellite states. But we should want no part of it.

And the simple fact is there is a limited demand for PRC type manufacturing, and the supply exceeds demand. By the PRC unfairly acquiring nearly of it, (and building far more than what was needed) they kept billons of others in India and Africa in poverty. Those countries will never be able to compete in those areas, because PRC dumping drove prices to low to be profitable, and if they try the PRC will use the same tactics against them. Yes when choosing who to lift up, (and do not say the market chooses as that is obviously BS as I have shown) then we should choose the governments who will not use it against us.

If the government will use that money against us, then yes. It is unfortunate, but from a national security perspective making your adversaries rich is simply insanity. Yes realpolitik is cruel sometimes. But it is the only way to survive in a dog eat dog world.

Sending our jobs to North Korea would be insane. And if they became more wealth than the South, they can final achieve their dream of conquering it!

Plus we can lift other people out of poverty instead. PRC overcapacity and dumping is a zero sum game.

And again, I am not saying we bomb them, or anything. If they wish they can build their economy on their own. They can lift their people out of poverty on their own. Using their own technology and markets.

[Nakena]

Normally I won't talk about these kinds of things-- but why do you feel that people sympathizing with the Juche Ideology is an issue, at all? Really, I believe you're using this as an excuse to be not only judgemental, but advocate for something against said followers of said political ideology-- while covering it up with a benevolent attitude. Really, it shouldn't be something you talk about on a NS forum-- at all.

As for the question at hand, Juche is an ideology I am relatively neutral towards. You claim nationalism is bad-- which the term itself is overly generalized, and you seem to blatantly use the "the DPRK is hell" bull from the west despite the fact that the west was the country that isolated and starved the DPRK in the first place, not out of human rights but out of blatant meddling and regime change-- which the countries involved are famous for. It's a big brain moment that to me, the only countries listed as rouge nations are ones that refuse to accept the --american dominated-- ideals of globalization and the international banks. Furthermore, despite the fact that several defectors are honest-- that south Korea has paid a recorded amount of equivalent of 800,000 USD for defector stories, and some defectors like Yeonmi Park are blatant liars who are obviously using their fame to get a hold of it.

Rather than criticizing others for being Jucheist sympathizers-- which you so graciously do-- you seem to be covering for something else entirely.

I suggest you also research the stories that the world media put out, recalled, and gave a half-hearted apology for telling false infortmation.

Furthermore, if you wish to know why the regime is so hostile-- the American government claims to have killed off 20% of the population in the Korean war, actively tried to starve the DPRK twice-- once during the Korean War and once during the arduous march (despite the DPRK wanting to open its economy up in the first place by joining the IMF). That is why Kim Jong-Il strengthened Songun in the first place, and assisted nuclear development. The country is patriotic and its leaders were voted in-- admittedly partially because of the bloodline but merely out of "Kim Jong Il was the best example of Kim Il-Sung" and so on. The country desires economic self-sufficiency and trade with the world-- so long as its independence and identity isn't brought to knee.

Juche is a clearly flawed ideology, but we must remember that it's one of the last pieces of identity that broken and unfortunate country has. People defend it admittedly because it's the last bastion of independence in this modern and increasingly one-sided world-- even if there are the cringe-worthy "kim did nothing wrong" people. The DPRK is only isolated because the world made it so. The country is hostile because it did not forget their past (first the genocides of the Japanese rule that Kim Il-Sung fought against, and then the atrocities from both sides of the Korean war). The country pursues nukes because they do not want to cede what little they have of themselves.

Because it actively kills innocent people, the exact same problem that fascism has. And funny enough many of the arguments that you make in defense of North Korea can be applied to Nazi Germany, and frankly that makes them shit arguments imho.

Oh come on, he merely offered an possible explanation for their own self-perspective. ; )

[Petrolheadia]

Lifted? We did not lift China, China lifted itself with the work of the Chinese under a capitalist system.

And you're going to impoverish people just because you don't like the government they don't have a say in? That's actually very casually cruel.

Bullshit.
The PRC economy is built on predatory mercantilism.
https://itif.org/publications/2018/02/2 ... industries

How they became a manufacturing behemoth is simple, they target a specific industry, most notably steel, solar panels, aluminum and shipbuilding, although now they are moving into industries higher up the value chain like semiconductors.

The government then subsidizes gross overcapacity and dumping to destroy that industry in other countries. Then it buys up the companies and factories it drove out of business by dumping, strips their technology, equipment and assets and ships them to the PRC.

Destroying cities and communities in the process.
That is how the PRC brought most those people out of poverty.

At a huge cost. Causing other people to fall into poverty.

Moreover your argument completely contradicts itself! If they can do it on their own then why do they need access to our technology and markets?!

Fine, let them do it by their own work. I am fine with that. By making things to sell on their own market, or to their satellite states. But we should want no part of it.

And the simple fact is there is a limited demand for PRC type manufacturing, and the supply exceeds demand. By the PRC unfairly acquiring nearly of it, (and building far more than what was needed) they kept billons of others in India and Africa in poverty. Those countries will never be able to compete in those areas, because PRC dumping drove prices to low to be profitable, and if they try the PRC will use the same tactics against them. Yes when choosing who to lift up, (and do not say the market chooses as that is obviously BS as I have shown) then we should choose the governments who will not use it against us.

If the government will use that money against us, then yes. It is unfortunate, but from a national security perspective making your adversaries rich is simply insanity. Yes realpolitik is cruel sometimes. But it is the only way to survive in a dog eat dog world.

Sending our jobs to North Korea would be insane. And if they became more wealth than the South, they can final achieve their dream of conquering it!

Plus we can lift other people out of poverty instead. PRC overcapacity and dumping is a zero sum game.

And again, I am not saying we bomb them, or anything. If they wish they can build their economy on their own. They can lift their people out of poverty on their own. Using their own technology and markets.

Hmm... country that uses government money to support its industries... rings a bell. The US is also guilty in using government money to fund branches of the economy. Does it mean you now approve of sanctions on US automakers, banks or farming?

And China will only be hostile to the US if the US gives it a reason to. Thankfully you're not the government, so it doesn't have a reason to do so.


On the whole dumping thing: you can put any kind of money into an industry, but you won't succeed without the right kind of product. China does have it, and that's why their economy is booming.

[Nakena]

And China will only be hostile to the US if the US gives it a reason to. Thankfully you're not the government, so it doesn't have a reason to do so.

The PRC under Xi has become a totalitarian entity who is increasingly becoming a danger to every freedom loving human being on this world. Thankfully, President Trump did the only right thing to start the containment policy against this rising threat.

Chances are that a possible President Pence will, for all the other things I disagree with him, continue this one specific policy.

[Petrolheadia]

And China will only be hostile to the US if the US gives it a reason to. Thankfully you're not the government, so it doesn't have a reason to do so.

The PRC under Xi has become a totalitarian entity who is increasingly becoming a danger to every freedom loving human being on this world. Thankfully, President Trump did the only right thing to start the containment policy against this rising threat.

Chances are that a possible President Pence will, for all the other things I disagree with him, continue this one specific policy.

Source on China, you know, actually being aggressive towards foreign democracies?