MAGAThread XVIII: The Authority Is Total

[Greater Miami Shores]

Zurkerx, would you say the Democrats are acting similar to the Republicans when my fellow Republicans impeached Democrat President Bill Clinton for political reasons not for justice in America, which I have called wrong, dumb and stupid? Any one else can also answer the question?

Everything is political but to answer your question: it's partially political in this sense. In some way yes, Republicans and Democrats share some parallel when it came to Clinton's and Trump's impeachment. The thing is, Clinton committed perjury and obstruction of justice to hide his abuse of power in order to hide an affair with a woman. Impeachable in terms he committed crimes but no one cared (impeach and remove for Clinton was around 35% while close to 60% opposed it). Trump's case is much more severe: he's accused of soliciting a foreign government by holding up aid, which in order to get,they must investigate his political opponents (aka the Bidens), which can be considered as "bribery" as defined in the Constitution (the concept in the Constitution is broad so it covers a lot). This time, people are split with a slight plurality favoring impeachment and removal (48%) to those that oppose it (44%).

I always give thank you s. Thank you Zurkerx for answering my question. Yes we agree Democrats acting like Republicans and Republicans acting like Democrats under similar circumstances at least in terms of impeachment. While I agree the reasons for Trump's impeachment charges are more severe than President Clinton. We Republicans strongly believe the Democrats are doing it for political reasons against Republican President Trump, this is the problem. The same reasons my fellow Republicans impeached Democrat President Bill Clinton which I disagreed with.

[Gravlen]

It is not the job of diplomats to make Presidential policy or to disagree with the President, their job is to support the President's foreign policy goals and carry them out.

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

[Gravlen]

From Sondland's opening statement: “Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky"

“Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky,” Sondland’s statement says. “Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election/DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we knew that these investigations were important to the President.”

https://www.thedailybeast.com/gordon-sondland-will-trash-rudy-giuliani-in-impeachment-hearing

President Donald Trump’s handpicked Ukraine adviser Gordon Sondland says Trump conditioned a valuable White House meeting for Ukraine's new president on his willingness to launch investigations into Trump's Democratic adversaries, including former Vice President Joe Biden.

“Was there a ‘quid pro quo?’” Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union, a close Trump ally and GOP donor, plans to say in his opening remarks Wednesday to impeachment investigators. “The answer is yes.”

Sondland also intends to frame the matter as widely understood across the Trump administration, indicating that senior officials and even cabinet secretaries were aware of the arrangement — and that it was carried out at the “express direction” of the president.

“Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret,” Sondland intends to say, according to his prepared remarks. And he directly communicated the quid pro quo to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, Sondland will say. He specifically cites a July 19 email copied to acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, Energy Secretary Rick Perry, Secretary of State Mike Pompeo and “a lot of senior officials.” In that email, he reveals that he “just talked to Zelensky” and secured a commitment for a “fully transparent investigation.”

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/11/20/gordon-sondland-impeachment-testimony-071708

[Gormwood]

It is not the job of diplomats to make Presidential policy or to disagree with the President, their job is to support the President's foreign policy goals and carry them out.

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

You're precise of course, but is there a point to refuting a blindly fanatical Trump fanboy who is incapable of seeing him as less than perfect, much less as a con artist?

[Gravlen]

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

You're precise of course, but is there a point to refuting a blindly fanatical Trump fanboy who is incapable of seeing him as less than perfect, much less as a con artist?

No, it is a waste of time. However, sometimes it's an opportunity to refute some of the talking points being copy/pasted all over the place, and that has value beyond the individual interaction.

[Zurkerx]

Ambassador to say quid pro quo came from Giuliani at 'express direction of the President'. Sondland will also confirm that he talked to Pompeo, Bolton, and Pence about it.

Some passages from the NBC Article, the boldened is empathized:

He showed up for his televised hearing with reams of new text messages and emails he said prove the highest levels of the White House and the State Department were in on it.

"They knew what we were doing and why," Sondland plans to tell the House Intelligence Committee, according to his opening statement obtained by NBC News. "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret."

Sondland also draws Pompeo more deeply into the effort than has previously been known, including emails to the secretary and a top aide in which the basic contours of the quid pro quo alleged by Democrats seem clear.

Get some popcorn, this is going to be exciting! But Schiff makes a good point: the State Department or White House has yet to hand over any documents regarding this.

[Gormwood]

Ambassador to say quid pro quo came from Giuliani at 'express direction of the President'. Sondland will also confirm that he talked to Pompeo, Bolton, and Pence about it.

Some passages from the NBC Article, the boldened is empathized:

He showed up for his televised hearing with reams of new text messages and emails he said prove the highest levels of the White House and the State Department were in on it.

"They knew what we were doing and why," Sondland plans to tell the House Intelligence Committee, according to his opening statement obtained by NBC News. "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret."

Sondland also draws Pompeo more deeply into the effort than has previously been known, including emails to the secretary and a top aide in which the basic contours of the quid pro quo alleged by Democrats seem clear.

Get some popcorn, this is going to be exciting! But Schiff makes a good point: the State Department or White House has yet to hand over any documents regarding this.

Donnie will claim Executive Privilege then 15 Minute Gap them when he's told he has to hand them over.

[Zurkerx]

Ambassador to say quid pro quo came from Giuliani at 'express direction of the President'. Sondland will also confirm that he talked to Pompeo, Bolton, and Pence about it.

Some passages from the NBC Article, the boldened is empathized:

He showed up for his televised hearing with reams of new text messages and emails he said prove the highest levels of the White House and the State Department were in on it.

"They knew what we were doing and why," Sondland plans to tell the House Intelligence Committee, according to his opening statement obtained by NBC News. "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret."

Sondland also draws Pompeo more deeply into the effort than has previously been known, including emails to the secretary and a top aide in which the basic contours of the quid pro quo alleged by Democrats seem clear.

Get some popcorn, this is going to be exciting! But Schiff makes a good point: the State Department or White House has yet to hand over any documents regarding this.

Donnie will claim Executive Privilege then 15 Minute Gap them when he's told he has to hand them over.

Oh that'll send red flags up for sure. Not to mention, it's sad the GOP continues to use the same talking points being torn apart every day. I think they're using the definition of insanity here. But for first hand witnesses, especially Sondland who has brought evidence with him to back up his claim, it's going to be exceptionally hard for the GOP, Trump, and his allies to discredit him on this. It also makes Bolton's testimony all the more valuable.

[Greater Miami Shores]

It is not the job of diplomats to make Presidential policy or to disagree with the President, their job is to support the President's foreign policy goals and carry them out.

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

I am not missing this part. President Trump was concerned about corruption in Ukraine by American citizens and corruption in Ukraine which could affect American aid and business interests in Ukraine. All nations make conditions of aide to other nations or withhold aid from time to time until their goals are met by the other nation. In this case the money was withheld and released and President Trump did not get anything in return from Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, their was no quid pro quo or black mail or bribery and no wrong doing or damaging evidence has been presented by the Democrats witnesses against President Trump as my posts, articles, videos and their statements by those so called witnesses prove. The Democrats have nothing against President Trump. I Rest my Case and Points again, just a figure of speech.

[Ifreann]

Since being targeted by President Trump Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and his family have been placed under 24 hour protection by the US Army, and may be moved to an Army base for further security.

Think about that. A US Army officer and his family are not safe in the United States because he's being attacked by his own Commander in Chief. The danger isn't ISIS or Al Qaeda, it's American citizens, spurred on by the President.

[Gravlen]

Fourth, as I testified previously, Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election/DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we
knew that these investigations were important to the President.

Fifth, in July and August 2019, we learned that the White House had also suspended security aid to Ukraine. I was adamantly opposed to any suspension of aid, as the Ukrainians needed those funds to fight against Russian aggression. I tried diligently to ask why the aid was suspended, but I never received a clear answer. In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid, I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 election and Burisma, as Mr. Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential quid pro quo regarding the security aid with Senator Ron Johnson. And I also shared my concerns with
the Ukrainians.

There seems to be a link between these two points.

[Gravlen]

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

I am not missing this part. President Trump was concerned about corruption in Ukraine by American citizens and corruption in Ukraine which could affect American aid and business interests in Ukraine.

Why, then, did he demand a public announcement of an investigation into two specific individuals, Biden and his son?

Again, that's not for foreign policy, it's for personal gain.

All nations make conditions of aide to other nations or withhold aid from time to time until their goals are met by the other nation. In this case the money was withheld and released and President Trump did not get anything in return from Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelensky, their was no quid pro quo or black mail or bribery and no wrong doing or damaging evidence has been presented by the Democrats witnesses against President Trump as my posts, articles, videos and their statements by those so called witnesses prove. The Democrats have nothing against President Trump. I Rest my Case and Points again, just a figure of speech.

This has just been said by ambassador Sondland:

Quid Pro Quo
I know that members of this Committee have frequently framed these complicated issues in the form of a simple question: Was there a “quid pro quo?” As I testified previously, with regard to the requested White House call and White House meeting, the answer is yes.

Fourth, as I testified previously, Mr. Giuliani’s requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a White House visit for President Zelensky. Mr. Giuliani demanded that Ukraine make a public statement announcing investigations of the 2016 election/DNC server and Burisma. Mr. Giuliani was expressing the desires of the President of the United States, and we knew that these investigations were important to the President.

In the absence of any credible explanation for the suspension of aid, I later came to believe that the resumption of security aid would not occur until there was a public statement from Ukraine committing to the investigations of the 2016 election and Burisma, as Mr. Giuliani had demanded. I shared concerns of the potential quid pro quo regarding the security aid with Senator Ron Johnson.

[Greater Miami Shores]

This is part of what you're missing: Asking for an investigation into Biden and requesting a public announcement of such an investigation isn't for foreign policy, it's for personal gain. Such blatant abuse of power lies outside the job description of a diplomat, and is not something they should support or carry out.

You're precise of course, but is there a point to refuting a blindly fanatical Trump fanboy who is incapable of seeing him as less than perfect, much less as a con artist?

Gormwood thank you for finally giving me some credit, I'm precise for once, this credit is awesome coming from you. But at least I don't make fun of you or any fellow nation persons posts when I disagree with them politically. I don't say the same thing about you if you blindly and fanatically support a Democratic Presidential candidate or blindly and fanatically support the Democrats partisan impeachment process against President Trump, thank you for your post.

[Fartsniffage]

Sondland, a Trump supporter to the tune of a million dollars, is fucking burying the President here.

[Cannot think of a name]

Since being targeted by President Trump Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and his family have been placed under 24 hour protection by the US Army, and may be moved to an Army base for further security.

Think about that. A US Army officer and his family are not safe in the United States because he's being attacked by his own Commander in Chief. The danger isn't ISIS or Al Qaeda, it's American citizens, spurred on by the President.

"Why won't they release the name of the whistleblower..."

[Greater Miami Shores]

Since being targeted by President Trump Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and his family have been placed under 24 hour protection by the US Army, and may be moved to an Army base for further security.

Think about that. A US Army officer and his family are not safe in the United States because he's being attacked by his own Commander in Chief. The danger isn't ISIS or Al Qaeda, it's American citizens, spurred on by the President.

Ifreann, I don't think President Trump is going to send his mob to hurt the Proud Honorable LT Col Alexander Vindman, who by his testimony proved he wanted to influence US Foreign Policy to his views not President Trump. At least Lt Col Alexander Vindham practically testified President Trump did not do anything wrong, nothing he testified was damaging to President Trump.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

It appears that the republicans made a deal with the devil. And have decided to go down with the ship, as the alternative is much worse for holding on to power.

[Zurkerx]

Everything is political but to answer your question: it's partially political in this sense. In some way yes, Republicans and Democrats share some parallel when it came to Clinton's and Trump's impeachment. The thing is, Clinton committed perjury and obstruction of justice to hide his abuse of power in order to hide an affair with a woman. Impeachable in terms he committed crimes but no one cared (impeach and remove for Clinton was around 35% while close to 60% opposed it). Trump's case is much more severe: he's accused of soliciting a foreign government by holding up aid, which in order to get,they must investigate his political opponents (aka the Bidens), which can be considered as "bribery" as defined in the Constitution (the concept in the Constitution is broad so it covers a lot). This time, people are split with a slight plurality favoring impeachment and removal (48%) to those that oppose it (44%).

I always give thank you s. Thank you Zurkerx for answering my question. Yes we agree Democrats acting like Republicans and Republicans acting like Democrats under similar circumstances at least in terms of impeachment. While I agree the reasons for Trump's impeachment charges are more severe than President Clinton. We Republicans strongly believe the Democrats are doing it for political reasons against Republican President Trump, this is the problem. The same reasons my fellow Republicans impeached Democrat President Bill Clinton which I disagreed with.

Well, I'll give you credit for consistency at least although I think we'll have to disagree on the fact that while Democrats are acting political, they have the factual capital to back it up. We'll leave it at that though.

[Zurkerx]

Sondland, a Trump supporter to the tune of a million dollars, is fucking burying the President here.

Those texts and emails are damning: he came prepared. Imagine what documentation he would have if the State Department allowed him access to more. Btw, moments after Sondland started to testify, Pence left the DC area. I think he knows he's in trouble.

This email is damning though with these names:

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo
Energy Secretary Rick Perry
Perry's acting chief of staff
Acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney
Mulvaney's senior adviser and one other person

“I talked to Zelensky just now… He is prepared to receive Potus’ call. Will assure him that he intends to run a fully transparent investigation and will ‘turn over every stone’. He would greatly appreciate a call prior to Sunday so that he can put out some media about a ‘friendly and productive call’ (no details) prior to Ukraine election on Sunday.”

This led to Sondland commenting "Everyone was in the loop. It was no secret"

[Greater Miami Shores]

It appears that the republicans made a deal with the devil. And have decided to go down with the ship, as the alternative is much worse for holding on to power.

We Republicans have a different take on it, this impeachment process will back fire on the Democrats in the end, and they have chosen to go down with the Democrats ship.

[Vassenor]

It appears that the republicans made a deal with the devil. And have decided to go down with the ship, as the alternative is much worse for holding on to power.

We Republicans have a different take on it, this impeachment process will back fire on the Democrats in the end, and they have chosen to go down with the Democrats ship.

Backfire how?

[The Archregimancy]

I have deliberately kept my small number of posts in this thread to either answering factual queries on process and historical precedent, or encouraging Miami to follow forum etiquette.

But following Ambassador Sondland's ongoing damning testimony - testimony which, it bears repeating, comes from a major Republican donor to the President's inauguration, who owes his ambassadorial role to his generosity to the President - there can no longer be any question as to whether the President did anything wrong.

The only real question at this point is whether he's going to get away with it.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

Since being targeted by President Trump Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and his family have been placed under 24 hour protection by the US Army, and may be moved to an Army base for further security.

Think about that. A US Army officer and his family are not safe in the United States because he's being attacked by his own Commander in Chief. The danger isn't ISIS or Al Qaeda, it's American citizens, spurred on by the President.

"Why won't they release the name of the whistleblower..."

The whistleblower pointed out facts. Those facts have been proven by other people and other means. The whistleblower is not an accuser, just pointed out worrisome facts using protected channels. The accusers (the only ones who can be) are the people through the medium of the Congress. They are the accusers. Who cares about the whistleblower. The term has been villinized in some circles simply for creating a villain and a conspiracy to yell about. Whistleblower isint even the correct term as it was (as far as I know) multiple people over a large timespan submitting complaints. It’s just a propaganda point ...

[Zurkerx]

I have deliberately kept my small number of posts in this thread to either answering factual queries on process and historical precedent, or encouraging Miami to follow forum etiquette.

But following Ambassador Sondland's ongoing damning testimony - testimony which, it bears repeating, comes from a major Republican donor to the President's inauguration, who owes his ambassadorial role to his generosity to the President - there can no longer be any question as to whether the President did anything wrong.

The only real question at this point is whether he's going to get away with it.

Knowing how Republicans are acting currently, he'll likely get away with it, at least, for now. It'll likley come down to 2020 to get Trump out of Office by Election.

[Ifreann]

Since being targeted by President Trump Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman and his family have been placed under 24 hour protection by the US Army, and may be moved to an Army base for further security.

Think about that. A US Army officer and his family are not safe in the United States because he's being attacked by his own Commander in Chief. The danger isn't ISIS or Al Qaeda, it's American citizens, spurred on by the President.

"Why won't they release the name of the whistleblower..."

Indeed.