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MAGAThread XVIII: The Authority Is Total

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Inhorto
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Founded: Jun 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Inhorto » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:16 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Obviously, there's more factors, but "the government still governs" is a really significant one.
More specifically, there's four big factors, as defined by the Fund for Peace:
  • Loss of control over its territory/monopoly on violence within it
  • Erosion of legitimate authority
  • Inability to provide public services
  • Inability to interact with other states

The US doesn't meet any of them.


Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.

The United States having liberal gun laws doesn't translate into it having lost control of its territory. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, not snatch up territory. If there is any country on Earth that can secure its territorial integrity and ward off threats from within and without, it's going to be the US.
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Neutraligon
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Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:17 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Obviously, there's more factors, but "the government still governs" is a really significant one.
More specifically, there's four big factors, as defined by the Fund for Peace:
  • Loss of control over its territory/monopoly on violence within it
  • Erosion of legitimate authority
  • Inability to provide public services
  • Inability to interact with other states

The US doesn't meet any of them.


Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.

I don't think so. I will say we are in the process of watching the second occur, and have been for while.
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Albrenia
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:18 pm

Inhorto wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.

The United States having liberal gun laws doesn't translate into it having lost control of its territory. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, not snatch up territory. If there is any country on Earth that can secure its territorial integrity and ward off threats from within and without, it's going to be the US.


I was more referring to the 'monopoly of violence with it' part.

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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:19 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Inhorto wrote:The United States having liberal gun laws doesn't translate into it having lost control of its territory. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, not snatch up territory. If there is any country on Earth that can secure its territorial integrity and ward off threats from within and without, it's going to be the US.


I was more referring to the 'monopoly of violence with it' part.


To be fair, if we count the capacity of the people to commit violence as rendering a state failed, then they're all failed.
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Proctopeo
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Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:24 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.

I don't think so. I will say we are in the process of watching the second occur, and have been for while.

The question being, who's eroding it?
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Albrenia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:26 pm

Telconi wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
I was more referring to the 'monopoly of violence with it' part.


To be fair, if we count the capacity of the people to commit violence as rendering a state failed, then they're all failed.


Also mostly true. As I said though, sometimes I just like to nitpick for no good reason. :p

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Inhorto
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Founded: Jun 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Inhorto » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:26 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Inhorto wrote:The United States having liberal gun laws doesn't translate into it having lost control of its territory. The Second Amendment guarantees the right to bear arms, not snatch up territory. If there is any country on Earth that can secure its territorial integrity and ward off threats from within and without, it's going to be the US.


I was more referring to the 'monopoly of violence with it' part.

The vast majority of gun owners are law-abiding citizens. People don't suddenly itch with the urge of overthrowing Washington because they've bought a gun. I mean, I would like to see more gun control, but connecting gun ownership to the US somehow being a failed state seems preposterous to me. Maybe it's true for Somalia, but not here.
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Valrifell
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Founded: Aug 18, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Valrifell » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:28 pm

Albrenia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:Obviously, there's more factors, but "the government still governs" is a really significant one.
More specifically, there's four big factors, as defined by the Fund for Peace:
  • Loss of control over its territory/monopoly on violence within it
  • Erosion of legitimate authority
  • Inability to provide public services
  • Inability to interact with other states

The US doesn't meet any of them.


Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.


No, because the 2nd amendment breaks the government's monopoly on arms, but not violence. For instance, the agents of the government are more or less allowed to kill whenever it feels like it's warranted and decides if a usage of violence is legitimate or not, no other institution has that kind of authority. That's what they mean with "monopoly on violence".

Losing it is usually analogous to either a bunch of warlords riding around or a complete breakdown of any civil society.
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Albrenia
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:30 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.


No, because the 2nd amendment breaks the government's monopoly on arms, but not violence. For instance, the agents of the government are more or less allowed to kill whenever it feels like it's warranted and decides if a usage of violence is legitimate or not, no other institution has that kind of authority. That's what they mean with "monopoly on violence".

Losing it is usually analogous to either a bunch of warlords riding around or a complete breakdown of any civil society.


Makes sense. Consider my nitpick... un-picked?

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Neutraligon
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Posts: 34821
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:35 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I don't think so. I will say we are in the process of watching the second occur, and have been for while.

The question being, who's eroding it?

Right now, politicians and the media
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Telconi
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Posts: 33617
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:47 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:The question being, who's eroding it?

Right now, politicians and the media


Missing the forest for the trees my dude, in the end politicians and media are predicated upon support. The one's eroding it are the American people as a whole.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Posts: 33565
Founded: Dec 18, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:58 pm

Update on the poll:

8 for genuine 0 for sarcastic 1 for confused and 3 for he just talks sans filter

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Neutraligon
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Posts: 34821
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:02 pm

Telconi wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Right now, politicians and the media


Missing the forest for the trees my dude, in the end politicians and media are predicated upon support. The one's eroding it are the American people as a whole.

That would depend on if you have a political and "ruling" elite. The US does, despite not being monarchy.
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Zurkerx
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Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:26 pm

Oh look, Trump says briefings 'not worth the effort' amid fallout from disinfectant comments.

I'm even surprised he even pulled the plug given the embarrassing shit he says. Also, Trump is considering replacing HHS Azar due to his early mishandling of the Coronavirus. While I certainly would be upset with Azar, I'm more disappointed in Trump, who is basically blaming others for his problems (no surprise there).
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Jerzylvania
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Founded: Aug 10, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jerzylvania » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:18 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Oh look, Trump says briefings 'not worth the effort' amid fallout from disinfectant comments.

I'm even surprised he even pulled the plug given the embarrassing shit he says. Also, Trump is considering replacing HHS Azar due to his early mishandling of the Coronavirus. While I certainly would be upset with Azar, I'm more disappointed in Trump, who is basically blaming others for his problems (no surprise there).


Trump isn't fooling anyone anymore. He's a failure at crisis management.
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Bombadil
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Founded: Oct 13, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Bombadil » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:25 pm

Jerzylvania wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Oh look, Trump says briefings 'not worth the effort' amid fallout from disinfectant comments.

I'm even surprised he even pulled the plug given the embarrassing shit he says. Also, Trump is considering replacing HHS Azar due to his early mishandling of the Coronavirus. While I certainly would be upset with Azar, I'm more disappointed in Trump, who is basically blaming others for his problems (no surprise there).


Trump isn't fooling anyone anymore. He's a failure at crisis management.


He doesn't need to fool anyone, FOX is essentially ignoring the story, they have a clip of Dr. Birx whitewashing the incident and they're going with Kim Jong-Un instead.

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Farnhamia
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Founded: Jun 20, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Farnhamia » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:27 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Oh look, Trump says briefings 'not worth the effort' amid fallout from disinfectant comments.

I'm even surprised he even pulled the plug given the embarrassing shit he says. Also, Trump is considering replacing HHS Azar due to his early mishandling of the Coronavirus. While I certainly would be upset with Azar, I'm more disappointed in Trump, who is basically blaming others for his problems (no surprise there).

Ah, the blaming of the innocent begins.
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Jerzylvania
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Founded: Aug 10, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jerzylvania » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:39 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Jerzylvania wrote:
Trump isn't fooling anyone anymore. He's a failure at crisis management.


He doesn't need to fool anyone, FOX is essentially ignoring the story, they have a clip of Dr. Birx whitewashing the incident and they're going with Kim Jong-Un instead.

It's literally a different world.


True enough, but it still proves my point. Trump isn't fooling FOX News' management either so they are avoiding the story. They've observed what a fool he's shown himself to be. Now if his fanboy base saw Trump say these things on live TV then they know too... except the viewers that are fool enough to think drinking bleach is safe. How many can than be? Maybe half? Ugh. :shock:
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Albrenia
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Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:41 pm



Thank Christ. Now maybe the briefings can give out useful information instead of the ramblings of a badly tanned dumbass.

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Telconi
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Posts: 33617
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:26 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Missing the forest for the trees my dude, in the end politicians and media are predicated upon support. The one's eroding it are the American people as a whole.

That would depend on if you have a political and "ruling" elite. The US does, despite not being monarchy.


Every nation with a government has a political elite.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

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The East Marches II
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18033
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Sat Apr 25, 2020 10:41 pm

Valrifell wrote:
Albrenia wrote:
Just for the sake of nitpicking, wouldn't the first one be met by the 2nd Amendment alone and stuff like Castle laws?

Not that I'm saying the US is literally a failed state, I just like to poke things.


No, because the 2nd amendment breaks the government's monopoly on arms, but not violence. For instance, the agents of the government are more or less allowed to kill whenever it feels like it's warranted and decides if a usage of violence is legitimate or not, no other institution has that kind of authority. That's what they mean with "monopoly on violence".

Losing it is usually analogous to either a bunch of warlords riding around or a complete breakdown of any civil society.


Very cool, looks like we already qualify for failed state status then! Good job Varlifell, your lot did a wonderful job in Chicago!

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Petroslovania
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Posts: 255
Founded: Dec 09, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Petroslovania » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:04 pm

This thread has more people on it who hate Trump than people who actually support and believe in Making America Great Again.
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Gormwood
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:07 pm

Petroslovania wrote:This thread has more people on it who hate Trump than people who actually support and believe in Making America Great Again.

And the Gun Control thread is mostly gun huggers and the Feminism thread is mostly MRAs. Welcome to NSG.
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Cannot think of a name
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Posts: 31574
Founded: Antiquity
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:08 pm

Petroslovania wrote:This thread has more people on it who hate Trump than and people who actually support and believe in Making America Great Again.

Some edits for clarity.
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Posts: 13829
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:10 pm

Petroslovania wrote:This thread has more people on it who hate Trump than people who actually support and believe in Making America Great Again.

Did you believe that you have come to the Heiling thread?

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