MAGAThread XVIII: The Authority Is Total

[Albrenia]

I'm not sure one needs to be a factory owner to object to them losing their property.

I'm rather in the middle in this conversation though because I'm against seizing the means of production, but am not opposed to taxation to help those in need.

[Aureumterra]

Y...you don't see why someone who has bought property and built a factory using their own money and resources would have a problem with a group of people seizing the factory by force?

I don't see why you, who if I recall correctly plans to be a long haul trucker after your time in the military, is so emotionally invested in the plight of factory owners.

Which doesn’t change the fact that factory owners own the factory, and seizing it without consent is taking their property away

[Spirit of Hope]

Are taxes theft?

Under the basic definition? Yes. Taking people's things without their knowledge or consent is theft. But I am aware that taxes are just one of those things that can (not that I'm for it) be argued helps people and that will not go away anytime soon.

I will point out that taxes are taken with your knowledge and consent. The government tells you what taxes are owed and it is rather hard to be ignorant of the existence of taxes, after all your pay stub should happily list them. As to consent, you get to vote on taxes, depending on state and city, both directly and indirectly. If you are truly fed up with the way the government uses your taxes you are free to leave the country.

Not having taxes would mean not having a government, which is bad for a whole host of reasons, seeing as humans have proven themselves remarkable bad at behaving without a rule enforcer.

[Proctopeo]

I don't see why wouldn't I. If I buy something with my own money it's rightfully mine.

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

>literal communist propaganda that doesn't even conform to silly capitalist concepts like "reality" or "truth"

comrade do not choke upon the breadpill

[Aureumterra]

I don't see why wouldn't I. If I buy something with my own money it's rightfully mine.

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

[Imperial Joseon]

I'm not sure one needs to be a factory owner to object to them losing their property.

I'm rather in the middle in this conversation though because I'm against seizing the means of production, but am not opposed to taxation to help those in need.

Yes, levies can happen, for sure.

[Ifreann]

I don't see why you, who if I recall correctly plans to be a long haul trucker after your time in the military, is so emotionally invested in the plight of factory owners.

Which doesn’t change the fact that factory owners own the factory, and seizing it without consent is taking their property away

It's not rightfully their property.

---

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

>literal communist propaganda that doesn't even conform to silly capitalist concepts like "reality" or "truth"

comrade do not choke upon the breadpill

Why would I choke? This bread is warm and delicious.

---

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

It's simple mathematics. If workers were paid the full value of their labour, there would be nothing left over for the owners. For the owners to profit they must pay the workers less than the value of their labour. This is obviously exploitation.

[Telconi]

Which doesn’t change the fact that factory owners own the factory, and seizing it without consent is taking their property away

It's not rightfully their property.

---

>literal communist propaganda that doesn't even conform to silly capitalist concepts like "reality" or "truth"

comrade do not choke upon the breadpill

Why would I choke? This bread is warm and delicious.

---

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

It's simple mathematics. If workers were paid the full value of their labour, there would be nothing left over for the owners. For the owners to profit they must pay the workers less than the value of their labour. This is obviously exploitation.

"""Obviously"""

[Tarsonis]

I don't see why wouldn't I. If I buy something with my own money it's rightfully mine.

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

*sniff* yup smells like bullshit

[Tarsonis]

Which doesn’t change the fact that factory owners own the factory, and seizing it without consent is taking their property away

It's not rightfully their property.

That's a rather dubious prospect. If they own it, legally it is rightfully theirs. Regardless of whether or not they work in it.

>literal communist propaganda that doesn't even conform to silly capitalist concepts like "reality" or "truth"

comrade do not choke upon the breadpill

Why would I choke? This bread is warm and delicious.

And imaginary.

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

It's simple mathematics. If workers were paid the full value of their labour, there would be nothing left over for the owners. For the owners to profit they must pay the workers less than the value of their labour. This is obviously exploitation.

Labor has no value, beyond what people are willing to pay for it.

Also not necessarily. The owners could still pay the workers the value of their labor, and turn a profit by charging for more than he paid the workers.

[Imperial Joseon]

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

Just because he states working at factories doesn't mean he has Marxist intentions.

[Tarsonis]

This is Marxist logic, which has no base in reality

Just because he states working at factories doesn't mean he has Marxist intentions.

No but "Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, "

Does

[Alien Space Bats]

It's bizarre to see someone who doesn't own a factory get so mad at the idea of factories being given over to the workers.

Y...you don't see why someone who has bought property and built a factory using their own money and resources would have a problem with a group of people seizing the factory by force?

I don't see why you, who if I recall correctly plans to be a long haul trucker after your time in the military, is so emotionally invested in the plight of factory owners.

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because he has a sense of right and wrong?

I mean, it's quaint to be sure, but maybe Chernoslavia just feels that it's wrong to take someone's stuff just because you want it and nobody likes the person whose stuff is being taken, even if he's not the one to whom it's happening?

Just a thought, mind you. I mean, I'm not black, and yet I find the idea of whites stealing shit from blacks back in the Jim Crow era offensive. Which they did. Often. And yet I'm white. So why does it upset me?

<shrugs>

Who knows? People are funny, aren't they?

[Alien Space Bats]

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money. They get it by exploiting people like us, they get rich off our work by paying us less than the value we create by our labour, and they use those riches to buy up more factories and farms and tech startups and what have you and thus exploit more people. That all rightfully belongs to us. Seizing the means of production is just taking back what's ours, not stealing your toothbrush.

Not to put to fine a point in it, but I hope you realize that Marx's Labor Theory of Value has logical holes big enough to hold entire countries.

Would you like me to point out a few of them for you?

[Bear Stearns]

I don't see why wouldn't I. If I buy something with my own money it's rightfully mine.

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money.

Owning a factory requires a lot of work.

[Alien Space Bats]

It's simple mathematics. If workers were paid the full value of their labour, there would be nothing left over for the owners. For the owners to profit they must pay the workers less than the value of their labour. This is obviously exploitation.

Assumptions. You should consider them carefully.

<pause>

Let me help you with this: Why is the value of a worker's labor equal to the total price of the product when sold at market, rather than the value of the wage that was paid for their work?

Consider your answer carefully, because it will reveal any and all assumptions made in reaching that answer.

[Tarsonis]

And you get money by working for it. But the people who own factories don't work for their money.

Owning a factory requires a lot of work.

Administration consists of nothing more than sitting in Corinthian leather chairs, swigging big snifters of brandy, while smoking huge cigars and saying "hurumph!"

[Bear Stearns]

Jeb Bush is a mess. Jeb is a big fat mistake. Jeb is a mess.

His brother destabilized the Middle East and Jeb wanted us to be there for another 15 years. It's okay to make mistakes, but boy, Iraq was a beauty. Jeb is the weakest person on this stage.

[Cisairse]

Jeb Bush is a mess. Jeb is a big fat mistake. Jeb is a mess.

His brother destabilized the Middle East and Jeb wanted us to be there for another 15 years. It's okay to make mistakes, but boy, Iraq was a beauty. Jeb is the weakest person on this stage.

I could not agree more.

[Necroghastia]

It's bizarre to see someone who doesn't own a factory get so mad at the idea of factories being given over to the workers.

Y...you don't see why someone who has bought property and built a factory using their own money and resources would have a problem with a group of people seizing the factory by force?

I don't see why you, who if I recall correctly plans to be a long haul trucker after your time in the military, is so emotionally invested in the plight of factory owners.

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because he has a sense of right and wrong?

I mean, it's quaint to be sure, but maybe Chernoslavia just feels that it's wrong to take someone's stuff just because you want it and nobody likes the person whose stuff is being taken, even if he's not the one to whom it's happening?

Most people, including communists and socialists, would agree, which is why that's not the argument in favor of common ownership of the means of production.

[Telconi]

Gosh, I don't know. Maybe because he has a sense of right and wrong?

I mean, it's quaint to be sure, but maybe Chernoslavia just feels that it's wrong to take someone's stuff just because you want it and nobody likes the person whose stuff is being taken, even if he's not the one to whom it's happening?

Most people, including communists and socialists, would agree, which is why that's not the argument in favor of common ownership of the means of production.

Certainly seems to be, perhaps you could clarify for us why people are entitled to other peoples' stuff?

[New haven america]

Most people, including communists and socialists, would agree, which is why that's not the argument in favor of common ownership of the means of production.

Certainly seems to be, perhaps you could clarify for us why people are entitled to other peoples' stuff?

Isn't it the Right and Libertarians that usually claims nobody is entitled to anything?

Cause if so, then why do you feel entitled to owning stuff?

[Imperial Joseon]

Jeb Bush is a mess. Jeb is a big fat mistake. Jeb is a mess.

His brother destabilized the Middle East and Jeb wanted us to be there for another 15 years. It's okay to make mistakes, but boy, Iraq was a beauty. Jeb is the weakest person on this stage.

Absurd.

[Telconi]

Certainly seems to be, perhaps you could clarify for us why people are entitled to other peoples' stuff?

Isn't it the Right and Libertarians that usually claims nobody is entitled to anything?

Cause if so, then why do you feel entitled to owning stuff?

Who's stuff do I feel entitled to own?

[New haven america]

Isn't it the Right and Libertarians that usually claims nobody is entitled to anything?

Cause if so, then why do you feel entitled to owning stuff?

Who's stuff do I feel entitled to own?

Your stuff.

Why do you feel entitled to any self or shared ownership?