Latin America General : Corona Carnaval

[Kubra]

Precisely. One can begrudgingly

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

I mean folks can say what they will about the Soviets at home, it weren't pretty, but their proxies outside the Warsaw pact were largely better folks than ours.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card, I got some new material right here:

My shithole passport country was subjugated by the British Empire for over two centuries with Malays, Chinese and Indians pitted against one another in a racial and religious conflict that continues till this very day with ethnic Malaysian Chinese like me being systematically threatened and routinely humiliated by Malay and Muslim supremacists, and the state I live in is currently having its oil and natural resources plundered by the peninsular states across the South China Sea who blame us for our very own state of economic backwardness while the orangutans and indigenous Penan and other Dayaks are having their verdant communities destroyed by loggers just like the very ones that are destroying the Amazon rainforest. I condemn what the British did to my shithole country and what successive governments post-formation have done over the centuries. Oh, and let's not forget the horrific crimes the Japanese committed against my grandparents' generation in WWII, both in Malaysia and in Hong Kong, for which Japan has yet to sincerely atone for its sins.

The city-state I grew up in and have adopted as my own has been protesting for freedom and democracy for five months straight while the police and Triad thugs continue to crack down with ever-increasing levels of violence and brutality while pro-CCP apologists accuse us of destroying our own city and openly call for the People's Liberation Army to murder all of us. Even more people are dying, being tortured, re-educated and having their organs harvested by a fascist superpower next door to the city I grew up in that threatens freedom, democracy, and the economic and political sovereignty of countries around the world, including Bolivia.

Post-communist, fascist, ultra-neoliberal China today is the enduring legacy of what actual communism in all its failure left in its wake. Not to mention communists operating in my passport country waged an insurgency and murdered my countrymen simply for disagreeing with them, and they weren't and have never been in government. Communism completely fucked up my part of the world with millions dead in Cambodia alone, many of them simply for the "crime" of wearing glasses, and tens of millions dead from starvation in China. In their zeal to abolish empire, the communists conjured up their very own, genocidal, imperial monstrosities, and one such imperial power lies right on my country's very doorstep and is erasing my hometown's very existence with blue-dyed water cannons and thousands upon thousands of rounds of dioxin-laced tear gas and rubber bullets every single day.

Were it not for the international focus on Hong Kong, thousands of us would have been gunned down by the PLA, and "One Country, Two Systems" would have been abolished, by now. Fascism is the legacy that communism left behind in China and Russia. While the Americans and Europeans only made my part of the world even worse off for many years to come, the Soviets and Chinese fucked it up even more, and China is by far the bigger threat over here.

*END NEW MATERIAL*

But go on about how "my state and my people endorse far-right fascist coups" when my friends in Hong Kong have been risking life and limb to do just the exact opposite for months now. What has transpired in Bolivia, Colombia, Chile and Ecuador so far pales in comparison to the shit people in China are going through today. Protesters being sporadically shot by police doesn't automatically make a regime "far-right", "fascist" or any kind of dictatorship, and it doesn't make the initial revolution illegitimate and the anti-Morales protesters CIA agents paid to foment chaos and instability. It simply means the police suck at their jobs. This is as true of U.S. police departments as it is of Bolivian security forces. In fact, I would argue that the Bolivian police, despite their piss-poor Third World training and use of live ammo, are still far more restrained than the Hong Kong police despite the near-total absence of international scrutiny, and I still condemn the police shootings and brutality.

Your disingenuous characterization of anyone who even remotely tolerates the 2019 Bolivian Revolution and any revolution against a left-wing government as "tolerating a far-right fascist coup" is what's getting old. Screaming "CIA" at the top of your lungs is what's getting old. I hear this ridiculous claim being parroted all the time by China, and what's terrifying is that many people in China and the developing world actually believe this Western CIA conspiracy bullshit and want us dead for demanding freedom and democracy. You and your leftist comrades are no less guilty of enabling fascism, imperialism and totalitarianism of the "Communist", nationalist and Islamist varieties than I am, except the superpower I'm defending is an entrenched democracy that is well past its prime rather than a totalitarian fascist regime that grows increasingly more powerful by the day, so you can drop your holier-than-thou attitude and learn the concept of nuance.

Morales is known for his pro-Russia and pro-China sympathies and for opening his country up to China's Belt-and-Road debt traps, which would have destroyed the Bolivian economy and enslaved the country to China's every whim in time. This is what you're "begrudgingly" enabling when you defend him and anti-Western dictators like Maduro, Castro and others like him: one form of imperialism replaced with an even worse one, against the wishes of the protesters who toppled Morales, whom you dismiss, rather undemocratically so. Your desire to prop up pro-Russian, pro-Chinese leftist client regimes because "AmeriKKKa bad" is part of the reason Hong Kong is dying, because through your blind, ideologically-driven support of these regimes, people like you are contributing to increasing Chinese and Russian influence around the globe while American and Western influence declines, at the expense of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and around the globe, and yet you see fit to lecture to me and Novus about morals, pawns and 4D chess.

"Anti-imperialists" like you are the reason the PRC and not the ROC is recognized as the sole legitimate government of China by the UN and most countries around the world, many of which are exceedingly corrupt, anti-Western, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian dictatorships today who find the narrative of Western imperialism and "da ebul Zionists" to be extremely useful in keeping their populations in line. "Anti-imperialism" is the reason Syria is now completely and totally fucked and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Keep enabling these oppressive regimes instead, because "AmeriKKKa bad".

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China. I have an urgent, personal stake in all of this, and seeing China crash and burn for all of the crimes she's committed is my absolute top priority. To achieve this objective, Chinese influence around the world must be curtailed for starters, including in South America, thereby depriving China of resources and diplomatic support at the UN. Isolating Russia is another bonus. As I said before, if the Bolivian transitional government suspends elections indefinitely, declares martial law and Bolivia morphs into a full-blown dictatorship, I will change my mind, condemn the regime and support any popular uprising against it, whether it's a left-wing or right-wing regime, without screaming "SEE EYE EY", unlike far-left communist tankie Max Blumenthal and The Grayzone. Until then, I will reserve judgment. And if an election is held and a pro-Morales candidate wins, kudos to him.

BTW, I'm not American and have never been to the Americas, in case you didn't know. Nonetheless, I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the United States. For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world, especially in Hong Kong, where protesters wave the flag, sing The Star-Spangled Banner and love America more than Americans themselves. The same cannot be said of China. One country is half-good, half-bad. The other is totally bad. Guess which side I'm on.

To be perfectly honest with you, from what I've seen on a leftist Discord community, democratic socialists and anarchists do indeed support the HK protesters and despise the Chinese government with a passion, me included. So your appeal to hypocrisy as your trump card has no effect on me, or Liriena for that matter. And given the fact the pro-democratic camp is generally left-leaning, your diatribes against leftism are that more surprising.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

The Bolivian senate voted today on holding new national election in Bolivia. A consensus among the Bolivian political parties agreed on having a new election without Morales running. In other news, two of Morales offspring left Bolivia. They traveled to Argentina. Some say Morales daughter appropriated millions for her own use. For two years she did the duties of first lady in the Bolivian government. Another of Morales son had gone with his father and the Bolivian VP. to Mexico.

News is that 85% of Bolivia is under control.

Will MAS itself be allowed to run, or has Añez's regime already moved to forcibly dissolve the party already?

[Puertollano]

The Bolivian senate voted today on holding new national election in Bolivia. A consensus among the Bolivian political parties agreed on having a new election without Morales running. In other news, two of Morales offspring left Bolivia. They traveled to Argentina. Some say Morales daughter appropriated millions for her own use. For two years she did the duties of first lady in the Bolivian government. Another of Morales son had gone with his father and the Bolivian VP. to Mexico.

News is that 85% of Bolivia is under control.

Will MAS itself be allowed to run, or has Añez's regime already moved to forcibly dissolve the party already?

Anez's military junta has publicly said they will start cracking down on MAS for sedition.

[Aureumterra]

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card, I got some new material right here:

My shithole passport country was subjugated by the British Empire for over two centuries with Malays, Chinese and Indians pitted against one another in a racial and religious conflict that continues till this very day with ethnic Malaysian Chinese like me being systematically threatened and routinely humiliated by Malay and Muslim supremacists, and the state I live in is currently having its oil and natural resources plundered by the peninsular states across the South China Sea who blame us for our very own state of economic backwardness while the orangutans and indigenous Penan and other Dayaks are having their verdant communities destroyed by loggers just like the very ones that are destroying the Amazon rainforest. I condemn what the British did to my shithole country and what successive governments post-formation have done over the centuries. Oh, and let's not forget the horrific crimes the Japanese committed against my grandparents' generation in WWII, both in Malaysia and in Hong Kong, for which Japan has yet to sincerely atone for its sins.

The city-state I grew up in and have adopted as my own has been protesting for freedom and democracy for five months straight while the police and Triad thugs continue to crack down with ever-increasing levels of violence and brutality while pro-CCP apologists accuse us of destroying our own city and openly call for the People's Liberation Army to murder all of us. Even more people are dying, being tortured, re-educated and having their organs harvested by a fascist superpower next door to the city I grew up in that threatens freedom, democracy, and the economic and political sovereignty of countries around the world, including Bolivia.

Post-communist, fascist, ultra-neoliberal China today is the enduring legacy of what actual communism in all its failure left in its wake. Not to mention communists operating in my passport country waged an insurgency and murdered my countrymen simply for disagreeing with them, and they weren't and have never been in government. Communism completely fucked up my part of the world with millions dead in Cambodia alone, many of them simply for the "crime" of wearing glasses, and tens of millions dead from starvation in China. In their zeal to abolish empire, the communists conjured up their very own, genocidal, imperial monstrosities, and one such imperial power lies right on my country's very doorstep and is erasing my hometown's very existence with blue-dyed water cannons and thousands upon thousands of rounds of dioxin-laced tear gas and rubber bullets every single day.

Were it not for the international focus on Hong Kong, thousands of us would have been gunned down by the PLA, and "One Country, Two Systems" would have been abolished, by now. Fascism is the legacy that communism left behind in China and Russia. While the Americans and Europeans only made my part of the world even worse off for many years to come, the Soviets and Chinese fucked it up even more, and China is by far the bigger threat over here.

*END NEW MATERIAL*

But go on about how "my state and my people endorse far-right fascist coups" when my friends in Hong Kong have been risking life and limb to do just the exact opposite for months now. What has transpired in Bolivia, Colombia, Chile and Ecuador so far pales in comparison to the shit people in China are going through today. Protesters being sporadically shot by police doesn't automatically make a regime "far-right", "fascist" or any kind of dictatorship, and it doesn't make the initial revolution illegitimate and the anti-Morales protesters CIA agents paid to foment chaos and instability. It simply means the police suck at their jobs. This is as true of U.S. police departments as it is of Bolivian security forces. In fact, I would argue that the Bolivian police, despite their piss-poor Third World training and use of live ammo, are still far more restrained than the Hong Kong police despite the near-total absence of international scrutiny, and I still condemn the police shootings and brutality.

Your disingenuous characterization of anyone who even remotely tolerates the 2019 Bolivian Revolution and any revolution against a left-wing government as "tolerating a far-right fascist coup" is what's getting old. Screaming "CIA" at the top of your lungs is what's getting old. I hear this ridiculous claim being parroted all the time by China, and what's terrifying is that many people in China and the developing world actually believe this Western CIA conspiracy bullshit and want us dead for demanding freedom and democracy. You and your leftist comrades are no less guilty of enabling fascism, imperialism and totalitarianism of the "Communist", nationalist and Islamist varieties than I am, except the superpower I'm defending is an entrenched democracy that is well past its prime rather than a totalitarian fascist regime that grows increasingly more powerful by the day, so you can drop your holier-than-thou attitude and learn the concept of nuance.

Morales is known for his pro-Russia and pro-China sympathies and for opening his country up to China's Belt-and-Road debt traps, which would have destroyed the Bolivian economy and enslaved the country to China's every whim in time. This is what you're "begrudgingly" enabling when you defend him and anti-Western dictators like Maduro, Castro and others like him: one form of imperialism replaced with an even worse one, against the wishes of the protesters who toppled Morales, whom you dismiss, rather undemocratically so. Your desire to prop up pro-Russian, pro-Chinese leftist client regimes because "AmeriKKKa bad" is part of the reason Hong Kong is dying, because through your blind, ideologically-driven support of these regimes, people like you are contributing to increasing Chinese and Russian influence around the globe while American and Western influence declines, at the expense of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and around the globe, and yet you see fit to lecture to me and Novus about morals, pawns and 4D chess.

"Anti-imperialists" like you are the reason the PRC and not the ROC is recognized as the sole legitimate government of China by the UN and most countries around the world, many of which are exceedingly corrupt, anti-Western, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian dictatorships today who find the narrative of Western imperialism and "da ebul Zionists" to be extremely useful in keeping their populations in line. "Anti-imperialism" is the reason Syria is now completely and totally fucked and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Keep enabling these oppressive regimes instead, because "AmeriKKKa bad".

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China. I have an urgent, personal stake in all of this, and seeing China crash and burn for all of the crimes she's committed is my absolute top priority. To achieve this objective, Chinese influence around the world must be curtailed for starters, including in South America, thereby depriving China of resources and diplomatic support at the UN. Isolating Russia is another bonus. As I said before, if the Bolivian transitional government suspends elections indefinitely, declares martial law and Bolivia morphs into a full-blown dictatorship, I will change my mind, condemn the regime and support any popular uprising against it, whether it's a left-wing or right-wing regime, without screaming "SEE EYE EY", unlike far-left communist tankie Max Blumenthal and The Grayzone. Until then, I will reserve judgment. And if an election is held and a pro-Morales candidate wins, kudos to him.

BTW, I'm not American and have never been to the Americas, in case you didn't know. Nonetheless, I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the United States. For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world, especially in Hong Kong, where protesters wave the flag, sing The Star-Spangled Banner and love America more than Americans themselves. The same cannot be said of China. One country is half-good, half-bad. The other is totally bad. Guess which side I'm on.

To be perfectly honest with you, from what I've seen on a leftist Discord community, democratic socialists and anarchists do indeed support the HK protesters and despise the Chinese government with a passion, me included. So your appeal to hypocrisy as your trump card has no effect on me, or Liriena for that matter. And given the fact the pro-democratic camp is generally left-leaning, your diatribes against leftism are that more surprising.

Ironic considering there were massive protests in support of the coup that you seem to be brushing off as an insignificant minority

[Proctopeo]

To be perfectly honest with you, from what I've seen on a leftist Discord community, democratic socialists and anarchists do indeed support the HK protesters and despise the Chinese government with a passion, me included. So your appeal to hypocrisy as your trump card has no effect on me, or Liriena for that matter. And given the fact the pro-democratic camp is generally left-leaning, your diatribes against leftism are that more surprising.

I've honestly not seen much discussion of HK from demsocs and anarchists.
I have, however, noticed that the more virulently anti-American someone is, the more likely they are to support the CCP's actions against the protesters, regardless of other political leanings.

On the other hand, I've heard it's prompted many liberals to rethink their position on firearms. After all, what if the government does become tyrannical?

Will MAS itself be allowed to run, or has Añez's regime already moved to forcibly dissolve the party already?

Anez's military junta has publicly said they will start cracking down on MAS for sedition.

Most of what I've seen, from reputable sources, is that Morales is the one being probed for sedition.

[Puertollano]

To be perfectly honest with you, from what I've seen on a leftist Discord community, democratic socialists and anarchists do indeed support the HK protesters and despise the Chinese government with a passion, me included. So your appeal to hypocrisy as your trump card has no effect on me, or Liriena for that matter. And given the fact the pro-democratic camp is generally left-leaning, your diatribes against leftism are that more surprising.

I've honestly not seen much discussion of HK from demsocs and anarchists.
I have, however, noticed that the more virulently anti-American someone is, the more likely they are to support the CCP's actions against the protesters, regardless of other political leanings.

On the other hand, I've heard it's prompted many liberals to rethink their position on firearms. After all, what if the government does become tyrannical?

Anez's military junta has publicly said they will start cracking down on MAS for sedition.

Most of what I've seen, from reputable sources, is that Morales is the one being probed for sedition.

The new military junta is trying to charge Evo with terrorism and sedition for calling on the people to protest against the new regime.

But the military junta is also threatening journalists with sedition as well: https://www.wsj.com/articles/little-kno ... 1573815601

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

Will MAS itself be allowed to run, or has Añez's regime already moved to forcibly dissolve the party already?

Anez's military junta has publicly said they will start cracking down on MAS for sedition.

AFAIK, only certain individual MAS politicians are being accused of alleged "sedition", but the party itself isn't about to be banned as a whole yet. But given what kind of forces are standing behind her junta (The clerofascist Santa Cruz Youth Union, the Trump administration and fundamentalist preachers just to name a few), I fear the worst.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

To be perfectly honest with you, from what I've seen on a leftist Discord community, democratic socialists and anarchists do indeed support the HK protesters and despise the Chinese government with a passion, me included. So your appeal to hypocrisy as your trump card has no effect on me, or Liriena for that matter. And given the fact the pro-democratic camp is generally left-leaning, your diatribes against leftism are that more surprising.

I've honestly not seen much discussion of HK from demsocs and anarchists.
I have, however, noticed that the more virulently anti-American someone is, the more likely they are to support the CCP's actions against the protesters, regardless of other political leanings.

On the other hand, I've heard it's prompted many liberals to rethink their position on firearms. After all, what if the government does become tyrannical?

Anez's military junta has publicly said they will start cracking down on MAS for sedition.

Most of what I've seen, from reputable sources, is that Morales is the one being probed for sedition.

One can be anti-imperialist without licking the boots of a state capitalist regime that has abandoned socialism a long, long time ago. I personally regard Mainland China as nothing more than a technocratic dystopian oligarchy hiding behind the red flag to shore up support among those who don't know better.

[Northern Davincia]

Some say Morales daughter appropriated millions for her own use.

The "some" being the illegitimate regime that usurped Morales in a coup.

Genetic fallacy.

[Proctopeo]

I've honestly not seen much discussion of HK from demsocs and anarchists.
I have, however, noticed that the more virulently anti-American someone is, the more likely they are to support the CCP's actions against the protesters, regardless of other political leanings.

On the other hand, I've heard it's prompted many liberals to rethink their position on firearms. After all, what if the government does become tyrannical?


Most of what I've seen, from reputable sources, is that Morales is the one being probed for sedition.

The new military junta is trying to charge Evo with terrorism and sedition for calling on the people to protest against the new regime.

Depending on the angle you look from, that's either textbook sedition, or steering close to it.

But the military junta is also threatening journalists with sedition as well: https://www.wsj.com/articles/little-kno ... 1573815601

Cool paywall.

One can be anti-imperialist without licking the boots of a state capitalist regime that has abandoned socialism a long, long time ago. I personally regard Mainland China as nothing more than a technocratic dystopian oligarchy hiding behind the red flag to shore up support among those who don't know better.

While you can oppose le amerigan embire without praising Xi Jinping as your new god, people tend to do that anyway.

[Puertollano]

The new military junta is trying to charge Evo with terrorism and sedition for calling on the people to protest against the new regime.

Depending on the angle you look from, that's either textbook sedition, or steering close to it.

But the military junta is also threatening journalists with sedition as well: https://www.wsj.com/articles/little-kno ... 1573815601

Cool paywall.

One can be anti-imperialist without licking the boots of a state capitalist regime that has abandoned socialism a long, long time ago. I personally regard Mainland China as nothing more than a technocratic dystopian oligarchy hiding behind the red flag to shore up support among those who don't know better.

While you can oppose le amerigan embire without praising Xi Jinping as your new god, people tend to do that anyway.

Ok, well here's the quote if you don't believe me: "[Anez] has threatened to charge journalists with sedition for stirring up turmoil."

[Puertollano]

Depending on the angle you look from, that's either textbook sedition, or steering close to it.


Cool paywall.


While you can oppose le amerigan embire without praising Xi Jinping as your new god, people tend to do that anyway.

Ok, well here's the quote if you don't believe me: "[Anez] has threatened to charge journalists with sedition for stirring up turmoil."

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

[Aureumterra]

Ok, well here's the quote if you don't believe me: "[Anez] has threatened to charge journalists with sedition for stirring up turmoil."

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

Can you link anything that’s not paywalled or state propaganda?

[Proctopeo]

Ok, well here's the quote if you don't believe me: "[Anez] has threatened to charge journalists with sedition for stirring up turmoil."

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

I see. Though it seems like they're using legal channels that existed under Morales, and potentially even earlier.
I will comment that, as an American, I am quite used to journalists misinforming under the guise of spreading the truth.

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

Can you link anything that’s not paywalled or state propaganda?

Russia Today is at least slightly better than that one Venezuelan outlet, so I'll take what I can fucking get.

[Puertollano]

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

Can you link anything that’s not paywalled or state propaganda?

... Right. So far I've been told I can't use the Wall Street Journal, Independent Journalists via Twitter, TeleSUR or associated journalists, Bolivia TV or RT.

I could play by the same games and reject all the sources you throw out (not that they often source it), but I don't to talk about the substance.

[Puertollano]

Here's another source that confirms the first: https://www.rt.com/news/473735-bolivia- ... -sedition/

I see. Though it seems like they're using legal channels that existed under Morales, and potentially even earlier.
I will comment that, as an American, I am quite used to journalists misinforming under the guise of spreading the truth.

Can you link anything that’s not paywalled or state propaganda?

Russia Today is at least slightly better than that one Venezuelan outlet, so I'll take what I can fucking get.

I'm sorry, I thought the whole military coup was against legalistic authoritarianism?

[Proctopeo]

I see. Though it seems like they're using legal channels that existed under Morales, and potentially even earlier.
I will comment that, as an American, I am quite used to journalists misinforming under the guise of spreading the truth.


Russia Today is at least slightly better than that one Venezuelan outlet, so I'll take what I can fucking get.

I'm sorry, I thought the whole military coup was against legalistic authoritarianism?

Go ask the perpetrators of the """"military coup"""" for the specifics.

[Puertollano]

I'm sorry, I thought the whole military coup was against legalistic authoritarianism?

Go ask the perpetrators of the """"military coup"""" for the specifics.

This is hilarious. You're arguing that arresting journalists for sedition under the new military junta is a-ok because they're using the proper legal channels. Yet, when Evo, is allowed to run for a fourth term using the proper legal channels, he apparently needs to be overthrown and supporters killed, arrested and forced into exile. Please explain.

[Aureumterra]

Can you link anything that’s not paywalled or state propaganda?

... Right. So far I've been told I can't use the Wall Street Journal, Independent Journalists via Twitter, TeleSUR or associated journalists, Bolivia TV or RT.[/b]

WSJ is a perfectly viable source, except the articles are paywalled and I can’t take your word for it

The rest are state propaganda outlets, and Twitter is a horrible news source

[The East Marches II]

Precisely. One can begrudgingly

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

It is amusing that you see Argentina and Latin America as a whole as being perpetual victims. Argentina kept pace with the States till it chose to shit the bed and ruin it's potential post WW1. We are not the source of all your problems. Not to mention, most of those states were colonial states founded by settlers. They were doing plenty of killing until they lost it all and then gave into blood sport politics. You accuse Uncle Sam of being a monster, which is fair, while crying woe is me and appropriating the victimhood of the "indigenous". It's a rather impressive display of weak kneed nonsense.

[Proctopeo]

Go ask the perpetrators of the """"military coup"""" for the specifics.

This is hilarious. You're arguing that arresting journalists for sedition under the new military junta is a-ok because they're using the proper legal channels. Yet, when Evo, is allowed to run for a fourth term using the proper legal channels, he apparently needs to be overthrown and supporters killed, arrested and forced into exile. Please explain.

I didn't say it was "a-ok", I said it had legal precedent.
And Morales cheated.

[Puertollano]

This is hilarious. You're arguing that arresting journalists for sedition under the new military junta is a-ok because they're using the proper legal channels. Yet, when Evo, is allowed to run for a fourth term using the proper legal channels, he apparently needs to be overthrown and supporters killed, arrested and forced into exile. Please explain.

I didn't say it was "a-ok", I said it had legal precedent.
And Morales cheated.

Oh good. So we both agree what this military junta is doing is anti-democratic and totalitarian.

[Torrocca]

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card, I got some new material right here:

My shithole passport country was subjugated by the British Empire for over two centuries with Malays, Chinese and Indians pitted against one another in a racial and religious conflict that continues till this very day with ethnic Malaysian Chinese like me being systematically threatened and routinely humiliated by Malay and Muslim supremacists, and the state I live in is currently having its oil and natural resources plundered by the peninsular states across the South China Sea who blame us for our very own state of economic backwardness while the orangutans and indigenous Penan and other Dayaks are having their verdant communities destroyed by loggers just like the very ones that are destroying the Amazon rainforest. I condemn what the British did to my shithole country and what successive governments post-formation have done over the centuries. Oh, and let's not forget the horrific crimes the Japanese committed against my grandparents' generation in WWII, both in Malaysia and in Hong Kong, for which Japan has yet to sincerely atone for its sins.

The city-state I grew up in and have adopted as my own has been protesting for freedom and democracy for five months straight while the police and Triad thugs continue to crack down with ever-increasing levels of violence and brutality while pro-CCP apologists accuse us of destroying our own city and openly call for the People's Liberation Army to murder all of us. Even more people are dying, being tortured, re-educated and having their organs harvested by a fascist superpower next door to the city I grew up in that threatens freedom, democracy, and the economic and political sovereignty of countries around the world, including Bolivia.

Post-communist, fascist, ultra-neoliberal China today is the enduring legacy of what actual communism in all its failure left in its wake. Not to mention communists operating in my passport country waged an insurgency and murdered my countrymen simply for disagreeing with them, and they weren't and have never been in government. Communism completely fucked up my part of the world with millions dead in Cambodia alone, many of them simply for the "crime" of wearing glasses, and tens of millions dead from starvation in China. In their zeal to abolish empire, the communists conjured up their very own, genocidal, imperial monstrosities, and one such imperial power lies right on my country's very doorstep and is erasing my hometown's very existence with blue-dyed water cannons and thousands upon thousands of rounds of dioxin-laced tear gas and rubber bullets every single day.

Were it not for the international focus on Hong Kong, thousands of us would have been gunned down by the PLA, and "One Country, Two Systems" would have been abolished, by now. Fascism is the legacy that communism left behind in China and Russia. While the Americans and Europeans only made my part of the world even worse off for many years to come, the Soviets and Chinese fucked it up even more, and China is by far the bigger threat over here.

*END NEW MATERIAL*

But go on about how "my state and my people endorse far-right fascist coups" when my friends in Hong Kong have been risking life and limb to do just the exact opposite for months now. What has transpired in Bolivia, Colombia, Chile and Ecuador so far pales in comparison to the shit people in China are going through today. Protesters being sporadically shot by police doesn't automatically make a regime "far-right", "fascist" or any kind of dictatorship, and it doesn't make the initial revolution illegitimate and the anti-Morales protesters CIA agents paid to foment chaos and instability. It simply means the police suck at their jobs. This is as true of U.S. police departments as it is of Bolivian security forces. In fact, I would argue that the Bolivian police, despite their piss-poor Third World training and use of live ammo, are still far more restrained than the Hong Kong police despite the near-total absence of international scrutiny, and I still condemn the police shootings and brutality.

Your disingenuous characterization of anyone who even remotely tolerates the 2019 Bolivian Revolution and any revolution against a left-wing government as "tolerating a far-right fascist coup" is what's getting old. Screaming "CIA" at the top of your lungs is what's getting old. I hear this ridiculous claim being parroted all the time by China, and what's terrifying is that many people in China and the developing world actually believe this Western CIA conspiracy bullshit and want us dead for demanding freedom and democracy. You and your leftist comrades are no less guilty of enabling fascism, imperialism and totalitarianism of the "Communist", nationalist and Islamist varieties than I am, except the superpower I'm defending is an entrenched democracy that is well past its prime rather than a totalitarian fascist regime that grows increasingly more powerful by the day, so you can drop your holier-than-thou attitude and learn the concept of nuance.

Morales is known for his pro-Russia and pro-China sympathies and for opening his country up to China's Belt-and-Road debt traps, which would have destroyed the Bolivian economy and enslaved the country to China's every whim in time. This is what you're "begrudgingly" enabling when you defend him and anti-Western dictators like Maduro, Castro and others like him: one form of imperialism replaced with an even worse one, against the wishes of the protesters who toppled Morales, whom you dismiss, rather undemocratically so. Your desire to prop up pro-Russian, pro-Chinese leftist client regimes because "AmeriKKKa bad" is part of the reason Hong Kong is dying, because through your blind, ideologically-driven support of these regimes, people like you are contributing to increasing Chinese and Russian influence around the globe while American and Western influence declines, at the expense of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and around the globe, and yet you see fit to lecture to me and Novus about morals, pawns and 4D chess.

"Anti-imperialists" like you are the reason the PRC and not the ROC is recognized as the sole legitimate government of China by the UN and most countries around the world, many of which are exceedingly corrupt, anti-Western, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian dictatorships today who find the narrative of Western imperialism and "da ebul Zionists" to be extremely useful in keeping their populations in line. "Anti-imperialism" is the reason Syria is now completely and totally fucked and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Keep enabling these oppressive regimes instead, because "AmeriKKKa bad".

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China. I have an urgent, personal stake in all of this, and seeing China crash and burn for all of the crimes she's committed is my absolute top priority. To achieve this objective, Chinese influence around the world must be curtailed for starters, including in South America, thereby depriving China of resources and diplomatic support at the UN. Isolating Russia is another bonus. As I said before, if the Bolivian transitional government suspends elections indefinitely, declares martial law and Bolivia morphs into a full-blown dictatorship, I will change my mind, condemn the regime and support any popular uprising against it, whether it's a left-wing or right-wing regime, without screaming "SEE EYE EY", unlike far-left communist tankie Max Blumenthal and The Grayzone. Until then, I will reserve judgment. And if an election is held and a pro-Morales candidate wins, kudos to him.

BTW, I'm not American and have never been to the Americas, in case you didn't know. Nonetheless, I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the United States. For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world, especially in Hong Kong, where protesters wave the flag, sing The Star-Spangled Banner and love America more than Americans themselves. The same cannot be said of China. One country is half-good, half-bad. The other is totally bad. Guess which side I'm on.

Imagine unironically spending this much time and this great many words to so simply and hypocritically say, "lolol freedom, democracy, and sovereignty for my people, but your people can go fuck themselves and get couped eggs dee xD" while trying to also simultaneously (and very hilariously incorrectly) paint us as the real hypocrites because... you think we support the Chinese government or some weird shit.

[Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia]

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card, I got some new material right here:

My shithole passport country was subjugated by the British Empire for over two centuries with Malays, Chinese and Indians pitted against one another in a racial and religious conflict that continues till this very day with ethnic Malaysian Chinese like me being systematically threatened and routinely humiliated by Malay and Muslim supremacists, and the state I live in is currently having its oil and natural resources plundered by the peninsular states across the South China Sea who blame us for our very own state of economic backwardness while the orangutans and indigenous Penan and other Dayaks are having their verdant communities destroyed by loggers just like the very ones that are destroying the Amazon rainforest. I condemn what the British did to my shithole country and what successive governments post-formation have done over the centuries. Oh, and let's not forget the horrific crimes the Japanese committed against my grandparents' generation in WWII, both in Malaysia and in Hong Kong, for which Japan has yet to sincerely atone for its sins.

The city-state I grew up in and have adopted as my own has been protesting for freedom and democracy for five months straight while the police and Triad thugs continue to crack down with ever-increasing levels of violence and brutality while pro-CCP apologists accuse us of destroying our own city and openly call for the People's Liberation Army to murder all of us. Even more people are dying, being tortured, re-educated and having their organs harvested by a fascist superpower next door to the city I grew up in that threatens freedom, democracy, and the economic and political sovereignty of countries around the world, including Bolivia.

Post-communist, fascist, ultra-neoliberal China today is the enduring legacy of what actual communism in all its failure left in its wake. Not to mention communists operating in my passport country waged an insurgency and murdered my countrymen simply for disagreeing with them, and they weren't and have never been in government. Communism completely fucked up my part of the world with millions dead in Cambodia alone, many of them simply for the "crime" of wearing glasses, and tens of millions dead from starvation in China. In their zeal to abolish empire, the communists conjured up their very own, genocidal, imperial monstrosities, and one such imperial power lies right on my country's very doorstep and is erasing my hometown's very existence with blue-dyed water cannons and thousands upon thousands of rounds of dioxin-laced tear gas and rubber bullets every single day.

Were it not for the international focus on Hong Kong, thousands of us would have been gunned down by the PLA, and "One Country, Two Systems" would have been abolished, by now. Fascism is the legacy that communism left behind in China and Russia. While the Americans and Europeans only made my part of the world even worse off for many years to come, the Soviets and Chinese fucked it up even more, and China is by far the bigger threat over here.

*END NEW MATERIAL*

But go on about how "my state and my people endorse far-right fascist coups" when my friends in Hong Kong have been risking life and limb to do just the exact opposite for months now. What has transpired in Bolivia, Colombia, Chile and Ecuador so far pales in comparison to the shit people in China are going through today. Protesters being sporadically shot by police doesn't automatically make a regime "far-right", "fascist" or any kind of dictatorship, and it doesn't make the initial revolution illegitimate and the anti-Morales protesters CIA agents paid to foment chaos and instability. It simply means the police suck at their jobs. This is as true of U.S. police departments as it is of Bolivian security forces. In fact, I would argue that the Bolivian police, despite their piss-poor Third World training and use of live ammo, are still far more restrained than the Hong Kong police despite the near-total absence of international scrutiny, and I still condemn the police shootings and brutality.

Your disingenuous characterization of anyone who even remotely tolerates the 2019 Bolivian Revolution and any revolution against a left-wing government as "tolerating a far-right fascist coup" is what's getting old. Screaming "CIA" at the top of your lungs is what's getting old. I hear this ridiculous claim being parroted all the time by China, and what's terrifying is that many people in China and the developing world actually believe this Western CIA conspiracy bullshit and want us dead for demanding freedom and democracy. You and your leftist comrades are no less guilty of enabling fascism, imperialism and totalitarianism of the "Communist", nationalist and Islamist varieties than I am, except the superpower I'm defending is an entrenched democracy that is well past its prime rather than a totalitarian fascist regime that grows increasingly more powerful by the day, so you can drop your holier-than-thou attitude and learn the concept of nuance.

Morales is known for his pro-Russia and pro-China sympathies and for opening his country up to China's Belt-and-Road debt traps, which would have destroyed the Bolivian economy and enslaved the country to China's every whim in time. This is what you're "begrudgingly" enabling when you defend him and anti-Western dictators like Maduro, Castro and others like him: one form of imperialism replaced with an even worse one, against the wishes of the protesters who toppled Morales, whom you dismiss, rather undemocratically so. Your desire to prop up pro-Russian, pro-Chinese leftist client regimes because "AmeriKKKa bad" is part of the reason Hong Kong is dying, because through your blind, ideologically-driven support of these regimes, people like you are contributing to increasing Chinese and Russian influence around the globe while American and Western influence declines, at the expense of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and around the globe, and yet you see fit to lecture to me and Novus about morals, pawns and 4D chess.

"Anti-imperialists" like you are the reason the PRC and not the ROC is recognized as the sole legitimate government of China by the UN and most countries around the world, many of which are exceedingly corrupt, anti-Western, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian dictatorships today who find the narrative of Western imperialism and "da ebul Zionists" to be extremely useful in keeping their populations in line. "Anti-imperialism" is the reason Syria is now completely and totally fucked and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Keep enabling these oppressive regimes instead, because "AmeriKKKa bad".

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China. I have an urgent, personal stake in all of this, and seeing China crash and burn for all of the crimes she's committed is my absolute top priority. To achieve this objective, Chinese influence around the world must be curtailed for starters, including in South America, thereby depriving China of resources and diplomatic support at the UN. Isolating Russia is another bonus. As I said before, if the Bolivian transitional government suspends elections indefinitely, declares martial law and Bolivia morphs into a full-blown dictatorship, I will change my mind, condemn the regime and support any popular uprising against it, whether it's a left-wing or right-wing regime, without screaming "SEE EYE EY", unlike far-left communist tankie Max Blumenthal and The Grayzone. Until then, I will reserve judgment. And if an election is held and a pro-Morales candidate wins, kudos to him.

BTW, I'm not American and have never been to the Americas, in case you didn't know. Nonetheless, I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the United States. For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world, especially in Hong Kong, where protesters wave the flag, sing The Star-Spangled Banner and love America more than Americans themselves. The same cannot be said of China. One country is half-good, half-bad. The other is totally bad. Guess which side I'm on.

Imagine unironically spending this much time and this great many words to so simply and hypocritically say, "lolol freedom, democracy, and sovereignty for my people, but your people can go fuck themselves and get couped eggs dee xD" while trying to also simultaneously (and very hilariously incorrectly) paint us as the real hypocrites because... you think we support the Chinese government or some weird shit.

Drag him, Torri!