Latin America General : Corona Carnaval

[Novus America]

Except nobody said they were exactly the same thing at all.
There literally no two events in history that are exactly the same.

It was just the most obvious example of the general concept that foreign policy might have you aligned on foreign policy with a bad person or group.

But obviously there are countless others.

sure, it might have you working with Austria-Hungary, but that's all the more reason to ditch em, no?
As it stands, there's almost nothing to gain out of propping up the current Bolivian administration that is worth the current cost, let alone the potential costs to come.

Well sure you can debate the cost benefit analysis. But that still acknowledges there is a benefit.
However it does not appear we are even propping up the current Bolivian government.
Besides Trump tweeting he supported him what have we done?

It seems we got the benefits without knowing or trying. Of course we also get the downsides too but there is also no evidence that we caused it or could have stopped it.

So we probably get the same costs and benefits regardless.

[Novus America]

Between global Chinese and Russian influence on the one hand, and Bolivia's transitional regime on the other, Bolivia's government is by far the lesser of two evils, at least for now. If the situation deteriorates markedly into an all-out massacre and genocide, the military hijacks the legitimate democratic revolution and the transitional government postpones the January election indefinitely, I will reconsider my position. Until then, I will settle for verbal admonition and condemnation of police violence and wait till January. Seeing the police themselves joining the protesters in the streets to topple Morales is precisely the opposite of how police in Hong Kong have behaved so far, so I will give them the benefit of the doubt for now. The Bolivian military and police sided with the people then, and I hope they will continue to do so. Imagine the PLA siding with protesters in Hong Kong and overthrowing Carrie Lam, forcing her into exile. Imagine Hong Kong police officers holding hands with protesters in the streets and singing Glory to Hong Kong. You'll be waiting till the end of time itself before that happens.

My top priority is to see China implode domestically and globally, and if Russia loses influence in South America, that's another bonus. Lithium mining in a Bolivia that's in political limbo is preferable to importing rare earths from unambiguously evil, totalitarian fascist China. I'll take the former over the latter any day of the week.

Yes, you hit the nail of the head.
Just because we have a common foreign policy with a government does not mean we condone all of its actions nor that we cannot still criticize the bad actions.

[Novus America]

sure, it might have you working with Austria-Hungary, but that's all the more reason to ditch em, no?
As it stands, there's almost nothing to gain out of propping up the current Bolivian administration that is worth the current cost, let alone the potential costs to come.

But Kubra, did you ever think to think about the shareholders for Telsa before saying this? Those lithium mines in Bolivia are totally worth mass bloodshed if there's profit afoot! /s

Nobody said anything about profit for Tesla besides you. Not sure where you got that from.
Especially as we clearly said it was about the geopolitical influence, certainly not the profit of one company.

[Kubra]

yeah, and it was in the first cold war that had the genocide in East Timor. Sure, we've got plenty of examples, but it's hard to say *any* of them made the world a better place, especially for the totally low stakes in Bolivia.

We survived. We are still here. The Soviet Union is not.

Sure you cannot say any individual event in a 45 year war of attrition was the critical event, but not taking any of the actions obviously would alter it. Had we done nothing we probably would have lost.

The overall plan worked, despite obvious problems and failures.
And we could not have without supporting countries who backed us, without beating the Soviets for influence in places.

But anyways the East Timor genocide was not beneficial nor necessary either.

Though our relationship with Indonesia under Suharto was useful, despite the fact it was certainly a brutal dictatorship.

Anyways the comparison would not be that specific travesty (just as the police violence in Bolivia does not benefit us but the government’s foreign policy does). The comparison would be was our common foreign policy with Indonesia was beneficial. It was to us from a geopolitical perspective absolutely.

Despite the very ugly fact we were still supporting an ugly but useful regime.
Despite the fact we had to work with a rather nasty regime.

Out of national interest, then, why did we not simply ally with Germany? It would certainly have kept us out of the pacific theatre, and a war with the british would not have been particularly difficult. If trade with Germany were to be established, that which kept them from overrunning the Soviet Union in 1941 would have quite easily been rectified. We'd have come out quite well for little effort, no?

[Uiiop]

The points Novus raises on realpolitik should be considered regardless of everything else about him but there's also needs to be consideration that Novus takes this kind of logic to go "Canada and Mexico are American clay."

[Novus America]

We survived. We are still here. The Soviet Union is not.

Sure you cannot say any individual event in a 45 year war of attrition was the critical event, but not taking any of the actions obviously would alter it. Had we done nothing we probably would have lost.

The overall plan worked, despite obvious problems and failures.
And we could not have without supporting countries who backed us, without beating the Soviets for influence in places.

But anyways the East Timor genocide was not beneficial nor necessary either.

Though our relationship with Indonesia under Suharto was useful, despite the fact it was certainly a brutal dictatorship.

Anyways the comparison would not be that specific travesty (just as the police violence in Bolivia does not benefit us but the government’s foreign policy does). The comparison would be was our common foreign policy with Indonesia was beneficial. It was to us from a geopolitical perspective absolutely.

Despite the very ugly fact we were still supporting an ugly but useful regime.
Despite the fact we had to work with a rather nasty regime.

Out of national interest, then, why did we not simply ally with Germany? It would certainly have kept us out of the pacific theatre, and a war with the british would not have been particularly difficult. If trade with Germany were to be established, that which kept them from overrunning the Soviet Union in 1941 would have quite easily been rectified. We'd have come out quite well for little effort, no?

Actually we probably would still be involved in the Pacific, but it would be an easier victory for us.
Our conflict with Japan was not primarily related to Germany.
Also the Pacific War was beneficial to us long term (things are much better with the Post War Japanese government, BOTH from a national security and moral perspective) and it was pretty much inevitable that would would end up in a conflict with Imperial Japan.

But it would be a bad idea, for several reasons, even from pure national interest. First of all Hitler was crazy, and would not stop at just Europe, and actually envisioned a massive war with the US after he conquered Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Bolivia is not going to go on a genocidal campaign of global domination.

Also making some moral compromises does not mean you make EVERY moral compromise. At some point you have to draw a line, where the regime is just too horrible.
But the Bolivia government while not good is not even in the same universe as the Nazis in terms of nastiness.

[Novus America]

The points Novus raises on realpolitik should be considered regardless of everything about him but there's also needs to be consideration that Novus takes this kind of logic to go "Canada and Mexico are American clay."

I make no secret I wish a united North America.
But I also made it clear I only advocate we try through political efforts, not launching invasions.

Through convincing them to join politically like the EU does to get new states.

[Kubra]

Out of national interest, then, why did we not simply ally with Germany? It would certainly have kept us out of the pacific theatre, and a war with the british would not have been particularly difficult. If trade with Germany were to be established, that which kept them from overrunning the Soviet Union in 1941 would have quite easily been rectified. We'd have come out quite well for little effort, no?

Actually we probably would still be involved in the Pacific, but it would be an easier victory for us.
Our conflict with Japan was not primarily related to Germany.
Also the Pacific War was beneficial to us long term (things are much better with the Post War Japanese government, BOTH from a national security and moral perspective) and it was pretty much inevitable that would would end up in a conflict with Imperial Japan.

But it would be a bad idea, for several reasons, even from pure national interest. First of all Hitler was crazy, and would not stop at just Europe, and actually envisioned a massive war with the US after he conquered Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Bolivia is not going to go on a genocidal campaign of global domination.

Also making some moral compromises does not mean you make EVERY moral compromise. At some point you have to draw a line, where the regime is just too horrible.
But the Bolivia government while not good is not even in the same universe as the Nazis in terms of nastiness.

The beef with japan was predicated on our allied leanings. If going the german route is in the cards, there's a hardly any reason to embargo Japan. Hell, compared to the KMT, we might have turned a profit on japanese industry in China. Besides, between Russia and the US it's pretty clear which Germany would favour attacking more, and boy the war after that would not be particularly hard. What will Germany do, surrounded by hostile populations as its economic lifeline is so suddenly cut? Seems like a recipe for early US hegemony, no? Give Japan the largely worthless Philippines, and what reason would they have to intervene?
If there were 6 million east timorese to send to concentration camps, surely it would have been so. Is there any reason this would not be the case? Is morality a thing of scale, rather than quality?

[Novus America]

Actually we probably would still be involved in the Pacific, but it would be an easier victory for us.
Our conflict with Japan was not primarily related to Germany.
Also the Pacific War was beneficial to us long term (things are much better with the Post War Japanese government, BOTH from a national security and moral perspective) and it was pretty much inevitable that would would end up in a conflict with Imperial Japan.

But it would be a bad idea, for several reasons, even from pure national interest. First of all Hitler was crazy, and would not stop at just Europe, and actually envisioned a massive war with the US after he conquered Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Bolivia is not going to go on a genocidal campaign of global domination.

Also making some moral compromises does not mean you make EVERY moral compromise. At some point you have to draw a line, where the regime is just too horrible.
But the Bolivia government while not good is not even in the same universe as the Nazis in terms of nastiness.

The beef with japan was predicated on our allied leanings. If going the german route is in the cards, there's a hardly any reason to embargo Japan. Hell, compared to the KMT, we might have turned a profit on japanese industry in China. Besides, between Russia and the US it's pretty clear which Germany would favour attacking more, and boy the war after that would not be particularly hard. What will Germany do, surrounded by hostile populations as its economic lifeline is so suddenly cut? Seems like a recipe for early US hegemony, no? Give Japan the largely worthless Philippines, and what reason would they have to intervene?
If there were 6 million east timorese to send to concentration camps, surely it would have been so. Is there any reason this would not be the case? Is morality a thing of scale, rather than quality?

Japan with its protectionist policies had no interest in sharing access to China. And surrendering the whole East Pacific to them would not be to our benefit. There Pacific Mandate was a problem for us as well. And certainly the current situation with Japan is not better.

A Germany with all the resources of Europe would be no joke either. Note the war they were thinking would not come immediately after victory but decades latter by which they could be quite a problem.

And certainly scale matters. Certainly it is better to kill fewer than more if you can. Certainly when considering lives lost in the cost benefit analysis scale matters.
The more lost, the greater the human cost.

And again, scale regardless, the Bolivian government is not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany in how bad it is. Not at all.

It is not a dichotomy between being perfectly moral and having no morality whatsoever either.

[Kubra]

The beef with japan was predicated on our allied leanings. If going the german route is in the cards, there's a hardly any reason to embargo Japan. Hell, compared to the KMT, we might have turned a profit on japanese industry in China. Besides, between Russia and the US it's pretty clear which Germany would favour attacking more, and boy the war after that would not be particularly hard. What will Germany do, surrounded by hostile populations as its economic lifeline is so suddenly cut? Seems like a recipe for early US hegemony, no? Give Japan the largely worthless Philippines, and what reason would they have to intervene?
If there were 6 million east timorese to send to concentration camps, surely it would have been so. Is there any reason this would not be the case? Is morality a thing of scale, rather than quality?

Japan with its protectionist policies had no interest in sharing access to China. And surrendering the whole East Pacific to them would not be to our benefit. There Pacific Mandate was a problem for us as well. And certainly the current situation with Japan is not better.

A Germany with all the resources of Europe would be no joke either. Note the war they were thinking would not come immediately after victory but decades latter by which they could be quite a problem.

And certainly scale matters. Certainly it is better to kill fewer than more if you can. Certainly when considering lives lost in the cost benefit analysis scale matters.
The more lost, the greater the human cost.

And again, scale regardless, the Bolivian government is not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany in how bad it is. Not at all.

It is not a dichotomy between being perfectly moral and having no morality whatsoever either.

Protectionism? It's the 40's baby, we ain't strangers to protectionism. Hell, we might have used em to contribute to depression. That's life, my man.
All the the resources? I mean if they can use em, but y'know folks weren't to hot on the whole lebensraum thing. Resources aren't a thing you just take, you gotta convince folks to work em and improve em and all that jazz, you usually gotta have money to pay them folks salaries and benefits, neither of which the germans could or had.
As for scale, what's the magic number? Could you give it to me to the nearest million?

As it stands, we're supporting an administration that, frankly, has no chances in the polls, especially given the carte blanche given to security forces. Folks can say what they will about Morales, he had the minimal smarts to know when the guns turn on protesters the whole things over. So long as MAS can get a place on the ballot they're pretty much guaranteed a win against Anez, which paves the way for Morales triumphant return and the validation of all the shady shit beforehand.

[Novus America]

Japan with its protectionist policies had no interest in sharing access to China. And surrendering the whole East Pacific to them would not be to our benefit. There Pacific Mandate was a problem for us as well. And certainly the current situation with Japan is not better.

A Germany with all the resources of Europe would be no joke either. Note the war they were thinking would not come immediately after victory but decades latter by which they could be quite a problem.

And certainly scale matters. Certainly it is better to kill fewer than more if you can. Certainly when considering lives lost in the cost benefit analysis scale matters.
The more lost, the greater the human cost.

And again, scale regardless, the Bolivian government is not remotely comparable to Nazi Germany in how bad it is. Not at all.

It is not a dichotomy between being perfectly moral and having no morality whatsoever either.

Protectionism? It's the 40's baby, we ain't strangers to protectionism. Hell, we might have used em to contribute to depression. That's life, my man.
All the the resources? I mean if they can use em, but y'know folks weren't to hot on the whole lebensraum thing. Resources aren't a thing you just take, you gotta convince folks to work em and improve em and all that jazz, you usually gotta have money to pay them folks salaries and benefits, neither of which the germans could or had.
As for scale, what's the magic number? Could you give it to me to the nearest million?

As it stands, we're supporting an administration that, frankly, has no chances in the polls, especially given the carte blanche given to security forces. Folks can say what they will about Morales, he had the minimal smarts to know when the guns turn on protesters the whole things over. So long as MAS can get a place on the ballot they're pretty much guaranteed a win against Anez, which paves the way for Morales triumphant return and the validation of all the shady shit beforehand.

Sure we were protectionist too. But we wanted access to Chinese markets.
Not access to Chinese products. But Japan was cutting that off, they would not let our goods into China.

And sure it would take time for Nazis to bash/kill the opposition but they would do it. Dead people do not stop you from getting resources.
They absolutely were a threat.

But there is of course no bright line test as to how many deaths that applies to all situations. You will have to make a judgement on a case by case basis.

And what do you propose we do differently about Bolivia anyways?

Again it is not like we have actually done anything besides a Trump Tweet.

Bolivia is not a parliamentary system. Evo has conceded he will not run. He will not be on the ballot. Someone else from MAS probably will win, but they will not necessarily just do whatever Evo wants. A Moreno type thing could happen.

But again it is not us who will decide it anyways. We are just sitting back and waiting to see what happens at this point.

[Kubra]

Protectionism? It's the 40's baby, we ain't strangers to protectionism. Hell, we might have used em to contribute to depression. That's life, my man.
All the the resources? I mean if they can use em, but y'know folks weren't to hot on the whole lebensraum thing. Resources aren't a thing you just take, you gotta convince folks to work em and improve em and all that jazz, you usually gotta have money to pay them folks salaries and benefits, neither of which the germans could or had.
As for scale, what's the magic number? Could you give it to me to the nearest million?

As it stands, we're supporting an administration that, frankly, has no chances in the polls, especially given the carte blanche given to security forces. Folks can say what they will about Morales, he had the minimal smarts to know when the guns turn on protesters the whole things over. So long as MAS can get a place on the ballot they're pretty much guaranteed a win against Anez, which paves the way for Morales triumphant return and the validation of all the shady shit beforehand.

Sure we were protectionist too. But we wanted access to Chinese markets.
Not access to Chinese products. But Japan was cutting that off, they would not let our goods into China.

And sure it would take time for Nazis to bash/kill the opposition but they would do it. Dead people do not stop you from getting resources.
They absolutely were a threat.

But there is of course no bright line test as to how many deaths that applies to all situations. You will have to make a judgement on a case by case basis.

And what do you propose we do differently about Bolivia anyways?

Again it is not like we have actually done anything besides a Trump Tweet.

Bolivia is not a parliamentary system. Evo has conceded he will not run. He will not be on the ballot. Someone else from MAS probably will win, but they will not necessarily just do whatever Evo wants. A Moreno type thing could happen.

But again it is not us who will decide it anyways. We are just sitting back and waiting to see what happens at this point.

Yeah, we wanted access. We also had oil, and they did not. Weren't many gas stations friendly the place, so it's easy leverage, no? As for The bit in Europe, dead people don't fill mines. Or farms. Or factories. Gotta play nice for that shit, you know? And a Germany with little economic clout beyond its arms industry, well, it ain't really in a position to guarantee a nice wage.
Oh, Bolivia is simple: nothing. As I've said in other places, the end of Morales was a done deal before all this business, easy enough to negotiate with more natural successors. If it's so the the accession of Anez was a bit of US meddling, it's a bad idea, because even if folks like Mesa would give less ground it'd be markedly more stable ground than what we've got.
Now, we know Morales says a lot of things. he's the one who set term limits, ironically in order to circumvent them. If he's acclaimed by the people, well what's done is done.

[New Bremerton]

Out of national interest, then, why did we not simply ally with Germany? It would certainly have kept us out of the pacific theatre, and a war with the british would not have been particularly difficult. If trade with Germany were to be established, that which kept them from overrunning the Soviet Union in 1941 would have quite easily been rectified. We'd have come out quite well for little effort, no?

Actually we probably would still be involved in the Pacific, but it would be an easier victory for us.
Our conflict with Japan was not primarily related to Germany.
Also the Pacific War was beneficial to us long term (things are much better with the Post War Japanese government, BOTH from a national security and moral perspective) and it was pretty much inevitable that would would end up in a conflict with Imperial Japan.

But it would be a bad idea, for several reasons, even from pure national interest. First of all Hitler was crazy, and would not stop at just Europe, and actually envisioned a massive war with the US after he conquered Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Bolivia is not going to go on a genocidal campaign of global domination.

Also making some moral compromises does not mean you make EVERY moral compromise. At some point you have to draw a line, where the regime is just too horrible.
But the Bolivia government while not good is not even in the same universe as the Nazis in terms of nastiness.

Precisely. One can begrudgingly acknowledge and countenance a certain degree of realpolitik in order to prevail over our authoritarian enemies without going full Henry Kissinger and losing sleep at night. Seriously, that guy deserves to burn in hell for normalizing relations with China in 1979 just to get back at the Soviets. He and Monsanto also waged a "Secret War" in Laos and turned his back on the Cambodian people when the pro-PRC Khmer Rouge was conducting its genocide. Cambodia remains a pro-PRC vassal state under longtime dictator Hun Sen to this very day. Fuck him and all that has transpired since then as a direct consequence of his actions as Secretary of State and National Security Advisor.

I can tolerate working with a transitional government in South America that is neither a democracy nor a dictatorship and poses no threat to freedom and democracy around the globe, but I totally and unequivocally condemn America's relationship with Saudi Arabia and continued diplomatic and trade ties with Russia and China, all three of which do pose a major threat to freedom, democracy, and in Saudi Arabia's case, secularism.

[Liriena]

Actually we probably would still be involved in the Pacific, but it would be an easier victory for us.
Our conflict with Japan was not primarily related to Germany.
Also the Pacific War was beneficial to us long term (things are much better with the Post War Japanese government, BOTH from a national security and moral perspective) and it was pretty much inevitable that would would end up in a conflict with Imperial Japan.

But it would be a bad idea, for several reasons, even from pure national interest. First of all Hitler was crazy, and would not stop at just Europe, and actually envisioned a massive war with the US after he conquered Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

Bolivia is not going to go on a genocidal campaign of global domination.

Also making some moral compromises does not mean you make EVERY moral compromise. At some point you have to draw a line, where the regime is just too horrible.
But the Bolivia government while not good is not even in the same universe as the Nazis in terms of nastiness.

Precisely. One can begrudgingly

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

[Nakena]

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

No.

It's living pawns in an eternal 4D chess game of darkness.

Only through understanding the dynamics and processes of the game you'd be able to understand and see through it's outer forms and mechanizations, grasps its essence and become a master in your own right.

It's not very hard to play the United States of America. Pakistan's ISI is doing it for almost three decades now. Trump played (and won) them in even lesser time.

Russia and the PRC are much harder game.

To return to South America. You may hate me for saying this but most (but not all) places there are relatively easy game and were even moreso in the past.

[Puertollano]

Vice-President arrested by the new military junta in Bolivia: https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/sta ... 0019321856

He was probably going to be the candidate for MAS in the new "free" and "fair" election.

[Liriena]

Vice-President arrested by the new military junta in Bolivia: https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/sta ... 0019321856

He was probably going to be the candidate for MAS in the new "free" and "fair" election.

Totally not a coup. Very democratic. Much fair.

The OAS should spend the next hundred years eating nothing but shit.

[Nakena]

Vice-President arrested by the new military junta in Bolivia: https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/sta ... 0019321856

He was probably going to be the candidate for MAS in the new "free" and "fair" election.

Former Vice-President Álvaro García Linera left Bolivia the same day as Morales.

Guardian: Álvaro García Linera concedes mistakes pair made but branded the toppling of Morales as an anti-indigenous, rightwing ‘coup’

Former President of the Senate Adriana Salvatierra was still in the country as of 16th November. (Skype interview)

Her twitter: https://twitter.com/adriana1989sa

[Liriena]

Vice-President arrested by the new military junta in Bolivia: https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/sta ... 0019321856

He was probably going to be the candidate for MAS in the new "free" and "fair" election.

Former Vice-President Álvaro García Linera left Bolivia the same day as Morales.

Guardian: Álvaro García Linera concedes mistakes pair made but branded the toppling of Morales as an anti-indigenous, rightwing ‘coup’

Former President of the Senate Adriana Salvatierra was still in the country as of 16th November. (Skype interview)

Her twitter: https://twitter.com/adriana1989sa

Yeah, it's the VP of the MAS. Thankfully not García Linera. My heart could not cope with him being imprisoned by these fuckets.

[Aureumterra]

Vice-President arrested by the new military junta in Bolivia: https://twitter.com/Canal_BoliviaTV/sta ... 0019321856

He was probably going to be the candidate for MAS in the new "free" and "fair" election.

Former Vice-President Álvaro García Linera left Bolivia the same day as Morales.

Guardian: Álvaro García Linera concedes mistakes pair made but branded the toppling of Morales as an anti-indigenous, rightwing ‘coup’

Former President of the Senate Adriana Salvatierra was still in the country as of 16th November. (Skype interview)

Her twitter: https://twitter.com/adriana1989sa

For a second I read Liriena went into exile and was almost imprisoned…

[Northern Davincia]

Former Vice-President Álvaro García Linera left Bolivia the same day as Morales.

Guardian: Álvaro García Linera concedes mistakes pair made but branded the toppling of Morales as an anti-indigenous, rightwing ‘coup’

Former President of the Senate Adriana Salvatierra was still in the country as of 16th November. (Skype interview)

Her twitter: https://twitter.com/adriana1989sa

For a second I read Liriena went into exile and was almost imprisoned…

That would be a peculiar twist.

[New Bremerton]

Precisely. One can begrudgingly

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card, I got some new material right here:

My shithole passport country was subjugated by the British Empire for over two centuries with Malays, Chinese and Indians pitted against one another in a racial and religious conflict that continues till this very day with ethnic Malaysian Chinese like me being systematically threatened and routinely humiliated by Malay and Muslim supremacists, and the state I live in is currently having its oil and natural resources plundered by the peninsular states across the South China Sea who blame us for our very own state of economic backwardness while the orangutans and indigenous Penan and other Dayaks are having their verdant communities destroyed by loggers just like the very ones that are destroying the Amazon rainforest. I condemn what the British did to my shithole country and what successive governments post-formation have done over the centuries. Oh, and let's not forget the horrific crimes the Japanese committed against my grandparents' generation in WWII, both in Malaysia and in Hong Kong, for which Japan has yet to sincerely atone for its sins.

The city-state I grew up in and have adopted as my own has been protesting for freedom and democracy for five months straight while the police and Triad thugs continue to crack down with ever-increasing levels of violence and brutality while pro-CCP apologists accuse us of destroying our own city and openly call for the People's Liberation Army to murder all of us. Even more people are dying, being tortured, re-educated and having their organs harvested by a fascist superpower next door to the city I grew up in that threatens freedom, democracy, and the economic and political sovereignty of countries around the world, including Bolivia.

Post-communist, fascist, ultra-neoliberal China today is the enduring legacy of what actual communism in all its failure left in its wake. Not to mention communists operating in my passport country waged an insurgency and murdered my countrymen simply for disagreeing with them, and they weren't and have never been in government. Communism completely fucked up my part of the world with millions dead in Cambodia alone, many of them simply for the "crime" of wearing glasses, and tens of millions dead from starvation in China. In their zeal to abolish empire, the communists conjured up their very own, genocidal, imperial monstrosities, and one such imperial power lies right on my country's very doorstep and is erasing my hometown's very existence with blue-dyed water cannons and thousands upon thousands of rounds of dioxin-laced tear gas and rubber bullets every single day.

Were it not for the international focus on Hong Kong, thousands of us would have been gunned down by the PLA, and "One Country, Two Systems" would have been abolished, by now. Fascism is the legacy that communism left behind in China and Russia. While the Americans and Europeans only made my part of the world even worse off for many years to come, the Soviets and Chinese fucked it up even more, and China is by far the bigger threat over here.

*END NEW MATERIAL*

But go on about how "my state and my people endorse far-right fascist coups" when my friends in Hong Kong have been risking life and limb to do just the exact opposite for months now. What has transpired in Bolivia, Colombia, Chile and Ecuador so far pales in comparison to the shit people in China are going through today. Protesters being sporadically shot by police doesn't automatically make a regime "far-right", "fascist" or any kind of dictatorship, and it doesn't make the initial revolution illegitimate and the anti-Morales protesters CIA agents paid to foment chaos and instability. It simply means the police suck at their jobs. This is as true of U.S. police departments as it is of Bolivian security forces. In fact, I would argue that the Bolivian police, despite their piss-poor Third World training and use of live ammo, are still far more restrained than the Hong Kong police despite the near-total absence of international scrutiny, and I still condemn the police shootings and brutality.

Your disingenuous characterization of anyone who even remotely tolerates the 2019 Bolivian Revolution and any revolution against a left-wing government as "tolerating a far-right fascist coup" is what's getting old. Screaming "CIA" at the top of your lungs is what's getting old. I hear this ridiculous claim being parroted all the time by China, and what's terrifying is that many people in China and the developing world actually believe this Western CIA conspiracy bullshit and want us dead for demanding freedom and democracy. You and your leftist comrades are no less guilty of enabling fascism, imperialism and totalitarianism of the "Communist", nationalist and Islamist varieties than I am, except the superpower I'm defending is an entrenched democracy that is well past its prime rather than a totalitarian fascist regime that grows increasingly more powerful by the day, so you can drop your holier-than-thou attitude and learn the concept of nuance.

Morales is known for his pro-Russia and pro-China sympathies and for opening his country up to China's Belt-and-Road debt traps, which would have destroyed the Bolivian economy and enslaved the country to China's every whim in time. This is what you're "begrudgingly" enabling when you defend him and anti-Western dictators like Maduro, Castro and others like him: one form of imperialism replaced with an even worse one, against the wishes of the protesters who toppled Morales, whom you dismiss, rather undemocratically so. Your desire to prop up pro-Russian, pro-Chinese leftist client regimes because "AmeriKKKa bad" is part of the reason Hong Kong is dying, because through your blind, ideologically-driven support of these regimes, people like you are contributing to increasing Chinese and Russian influence around the globe while American and Western influence declines, at the expense of freedom and democracy in Hong Kong and around the globe, and yet you see fit to lecture to me and Novus about morals, pawns and 4D chess.

"Anti-imperialists" like you are the reason the PRC and not the ROC is recognized as the sole legitimate government of China by the UN and most countries around the world, many of which are exceedingly corrupt, anti-Western, pro-Chinese, pro-Russian dictatorships today who find the narrative of Western imperialism and "da ebul Zionists" to be extremely useful in keeping their populations in line. "Anti-imperialism" is the reason Syria is now completely and totally fucked and hundreds of thousands of people are dead. Keep enabling these oppressive regimes instead, because "AmeriKKKa bad".

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China. I have an urgent, personal stake in all of this, and seeing China crash and burn for all of the crimes she's committed is my absolute top priority. To achieve this objective, Chinese influence around the world must be curtailed for starters, including in South America, thereby depriving China of resources and diplomatic support at the UN. Isolating Russia is another bonus. As I said before, if the Bolivian transitional government suspends elections indefinitely, declares martial law and Bolivia morphs into a full-blown dictatorship, I will change my mind, condemn the regime and support any popular uprising against it, whether it's a left-wing or right-wing regime, without screaming "SEE EYE EY", unlike far-left communist tankie Max Blumenthal and The Grayzone. Until then, I will reserve judgment. And if an election is held and a pro-Morales candidate wins, kudos to him.

BTW, I'm not American and have never been to the Americas, in case you didn't know. Nonetheless, I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the United States. For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world, especially in Hong Kong, where protesters wave the flag, sing The Star-Spangled Banner and love America more than Americans themselves. The same cannot be said of China. One country is half-good, half-bad. The other is totally bad. Guess which side I'm on.

[Rio Cana]

The Bolivian senate voted today on holding new national election in Bolivia. A consensus among the Bolivian political parties agreed on having a new election without Morales running. In other news, two of Morales offspring left Bolivia. They traveled to Argentina. Some say Morales daughter appropriated millions for her own use. For two years she did the duties of first lady in the Bolivian government. Another of Morales son had gone with his father and the Bolivian VP. to Mexico.

News is that 85% of Bolivia is under control.

[Liriena]

The United States: 200 years "begrudgingly" being a malignant cancerous growth on the entire continent because, hey now, there might be even worse people across the ocean.

Get new material. Your people's "begrudging" support for coups got old and cringe in the 70s and 80s. Making that "begrudging" support more mealy mouthed and softly worded just makes it pathetic.

People are dying. All manner of human rights are being violated. Neoliberal economic policy, which your state encouraged, is starving millions of us. We don't need your "begrudging" support for racist religious fanatics taking power through illegitimate means and we're not lifeless pawns in your eternal 4D chess game with the rest of the world. If the only words you can muster are words of "begrudging" support or tolerance for undermining our democracies again, then maybe don't speak at all. It's bad enough to be pillaged for two centuries without the pillagers desperately trying to talk their way to a moral absolution.

(I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to me and not Novus. I can't speak for him.)

Since you seem to want to play the "but muh Western imperialism" oppression Olympics card

I don't. At no point did I try to make an argument based on relative privation. I wasn't making a comparative argument. I did not attempt, nor am I interested in attempting, to prove that somehow Latin America is the most oppressed.

So you just wasted hundreds of words on a counter-argument to a strawman.

I'd rather America cautiously do business with a transitional South American government that is neither democratic nor authoritarian and it's still too early to say how things will pan out over time, over certain and complete political and economic subjugation by China.

So your "begrudging" support for coups and repression in my region is based on a false dichotomy? Because, while there's no doubting that China has geopolitical and economic interests in South America, I'd say it's either disingenuous or paranoid to act like a unilateral Chinese takeover of South America is such an imminent threat that it justifies condoning an attack against our own existing political autonomy and freedoms. Not to mention the fact that it's shockingly patronizing towards the people of my region, specially coming from someone who supports Hong Kong's protesters.

For all their flaws and imperfections, the American flag still stands for freedom and democracy around the world

That's called brand recognition. It's pitch perfect advertising, but it's not true to hundreds of millions of people around the world. It's certainly not true to the people of Latin America, who have withstood countless attacks against their own freedoms and democracies over the course of modern history at the hands of the United States.

I'm not necessarily going to argue that the meaning you assign to the United States and its symbols is absolutely wrong, but I do think you could use a broader perspective if you're going to try to make a case of coups in South America.

[Liriena]

Some say Morales daughter appropriated millions for her own use.

The "some" being the illegitimate regime that usurped Morales in a coup.