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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:38 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Then back in 2020, decades of US interference in South America led to widespread unrest, and millions of refugees heading to the US to try to escape the chaos.

Cue screeches of "Build that wall!".

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New Bremerton
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Ex-Nation

Postby New Bremerton » Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 am

Nakena wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:Given that NSG's resident leftists have been sharing links to Twitter posts to bolster their narrative, it takes two to tango.

Here's Jhanisse V. Daca. Why do leftists suddenly care about Bolivia now?


Because it does now has formed an narrative people can identify, follow, empathize and take sides with. Something that resonates with corresponding world(views). If it would be a war between two bolivian tribes we would just shrug it of.

That is by the way true for both sides.


It's horrifying when I look back and think that I used to buy into all this dogmatic, "anti-racist", "anti-imperialist" bullshit as a young, easily impressionable student, and everything just seemed so black-and-white. I'm ashamed of how gullible and easily manipulated I was. Now, the "anti-imperialist" Left's double standards are as clear as day. I resent the fact I used to identify with this group, and I resent the Left for having used me in this way.

But that doesn't mean I'm about to endorse Donald Trump or embrace "traditional values", neoliberal free markets and right-wing conservatism any time soon. I'm not about to hop off one bandwagon simply to hop onto another with all of its biases and prejudices. I refuse to be indoctrinated by radical fanatics all over again.

Anyway, here's the Human Rights Foundation's report card on Bolivia:

Bolivia: Government Must Exercise Maximum Restraint in the Use of Force, and Call for Elections Immediately
Nov 21, 2019
NEW YORK – The Human Rights Foundation (HRF) calls on the government of Bolivia’s interim president Jeanine Añez to exercise maximum restraint in the use of force. The situation has grown increasingly dangerous as Morales’ supporters attempted to blow up the Senkata gas plant in the city of El Alto on Nov. 19, and have vowed to attempt to do it again.

Carlo Vercosa, a union leader and medical doctor who heads the union of medical workers of La Paz, described the incident in El Alto as an “act of terrorism, plain and simple,” and said that an explosion of the Senkata gas plant would have killed up to 10,000 people. The result of the joint police-army operation resulted in eight deaths, and several dozen people arrested.

The Añez government must also exercise restraint as it faces an estimated 30,000 coca farmers – many of them armed and allegedly linked to global cocaine cartels – in El Chapare, Cochabamba, Morales’ stronghold. Coca farmers have been blocking food transportation into the city of Cochabamba. While chanting “Finally Yes; Civil War” (“Ahora Sí; Guerra Civil,” in Spanish) the coca farmers threatened to march through Cochabamba but were prevented from doing so by government forces.

Bolivia’s interim government yesterday made public the recording of a telephone call between a voice that is allegedly Morales’ and coca leader Faustino Yucra in El Chapare. In the recording, Morales is heard providing explicit instructions to his followers to “tighten the blockade and prevent the access of food” to the millions of Bolivians who live in Cochabamba and La Paz. Yucra was arrested in 2010 at a cocaine crystallization plant discovered in El Torno, Santa Cruz. Released shortly thereafter, Yucra has been a fugitive since 2016, when an arrest warrant was issued against him on drug-trafficking charges.

Since both coca farmers and violent pro-Morales protesters in El Alto are preventing the transportation of food, food shortages have started to emerge in Cochabamba and La Paz.

“After being caught perpetrating electoral fraud, Morales is now engaged in a scorched earth attempt to cause violence and chaos. Morales and his supporters are sabotaging the Añez government’s attempts to name a new set of electoral authorities, and to call for free and fair elections as soon as possible, as encouraged by the international community and the Organization of American States (OAS),” said Thor Halvorssen, president of HRF.

“Reports published hours ago from the National Assembly suggest that a new law with opposition and Morales-party lawmakers jointly calling for elections is in the works. HRF applauds these efforts to stop the politically-fueled violence and resolving Bolivia’s political future through a free and fair electoral process.”

The methods used by Morales’ followers stand in stark contrast with the peaceful protests that brought about his ouster after blatant irregularities in the Oct. 20 election became evident. For 21 days, there were nationwide protests. During that time, armed mobs supportive of Morales killed at least three peaceful protesters in Santa Cruz and Cochabamba. There were no fatalities in the pro-Morales camp. Additionally, unidentified snipers in Oruro shot at least five anti-Morales miners as they marched from Potosí to La Paz to join the anti-Morales protests.

As of today, the death toll in Bolivia’s protests stands at 30. A report from Bolivia’s governmental Forensic Research Institute indicates that a high number of the bullets that caused such deaths were not fired by police or military weapons. Government officials, based on police forensic reports, have suggested that at least nine of the protesters killed suffered wounds inconsistent with the weapons in use by the police and military officers.

“The Añez transitional government is responsible for providing conclusive evidence that those protesters were not killed by the state police or armed forces. Otherwise, the deceased must be presumed dead at the hands of state authorities,” said Halvorssen. “To determine the cause of death for all who have lost their lives in the context of these protests, the government must provide the Bolivian Ombudsman, as well as local and international investigators and human rights groups, full access to all witnesses and evidence.”

The protests that led to Morales’ ouster progressively increased in intensity as electoral fraud was documented by independent auditors and the Organization of American States (OAS). Secretary General Luis Almagro of the OAS called the fraud a “self-coup” by Morales. Almagro, in addition to the leaders of the European Union, the United States, and others, formally recognized the transitional government of interim president and former opposition Senator Jeanine Añez. Añez was recognized as the constitutional successor to the Presidency after former President Morales, former Vice President García-Linera, and both the first and second Senators of the former ruling party, Movement Towards Socialism (MAS, in Spanish), resigned.

The day after Añez was sworn in as President, the Bolivian Constitutional Tribunal – the same body that controversially authorized Morales’s fourth unconstitutional term as president by ignoring the results of the Feb. 2016 referendum – issued a resolution declaring that the succession to interim president Añez was in compliance with the Bolivian constitution. The Constitutional Tribunal reasoned that Senator Añez was the next in line to succeed Morales as a result of his absence from the country after being granted political asylum in Mexico. While at the time no orders to prosecute Morales had been issued, Áñez has since said Morales could face prosecution for fraud if he returns to the country.

Opposition congressman Rafael “Tata” Quispe – an indigenous Aymara critic of Morales and a victim of politically-motivated prosecutions by the former president’s government – has since filed a criminal complaint for sedition, armed uprising and terrorism against Morales.

HRF joins the Interamerican Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in calling on the Añez government to repeal executive order (“decreto supremo,” in Spanish) No. 4078. Requested by police who called on the military to join the operations in order to counter the pro-Morales violence, the executive order provides an exemption for “the military from criminal liability in the event that they are acting in self-defense, state of necessity, and [if they] use force proportionally.”

“Even when self-defense, necessity and proportionality are common affirmative defenses to criminal liability under Bolivian and customary international law, the use of military force is highly discouraged in the neutralization of violent protests by civilians,” said Halvorssen. “HRF believes the executive order is unnecessary, and could have the effect of encouraging the excessive use of force by both military and police officers. Above all, Bolivia’s transition government must maintain strict compliance with international human rights standards.”

On Nov. 10, the day that Morales announced his resignation, violent mobs attacked civilians, looted businesses, and burnt homes in La Paz and Cochabamba. These armed groups also vandalized and burned down a police station in El Alto, beating a police officer to death.

That same night, pro-Morales protesters attacked and set fire to various homes, among those the home of human rights defender Waldo Albarracin and that of the journalist who first exposed the electoral fraud, Casimira Lema. Violent attacks of that nature have continued until today. Last night, pro-Morales mobs burned down the home of El Alto’s mayor and Morales critic Soledad Chapetón, an indigenous Aymara woman who has been calling for peace since the conflict started. Before Morales’s resignation, violent opposition groups had also burned the home of the pro-Morales governor of Oruro Víctor Hugo Vásquez.

The interim government has ordered the arrest of Juan Ramón Quintana. Quintana was Morales’s minister of the presidency since January 2019 – formerly minister of government between 2012-2017 – until his disappearance from the public eye in the context of the anti-fraud protests in November, and is suspected of being behind some of the coordinated violent actions by armed pro-Morales groups.

A military officer by career, Quintana was trained in the infamous U.S. Army School of the Americas and served under the Defense Ministry of Bolivian dictator Hugo Banzer Suarez before working in the Morales government. Between 2017 and 2019, Quintana was Bolivian ambassador to Cuba. Quintana has been accused of gross human rights violations in Bolivia, including violent repression against people with disabilities protesting in 2016, and also allegedly orchestrated the political violence that led to the 2011 Porvenir massacre, in which 12 people died, and the Hotel Las Americas massacre, where the Morales government is believed to have executed three foreign citizens, who the government claimed were plotting to “assassinate Morales.” In an interview last month, while still in government, Quintana threatened that Bolivia would become a “big battle field, a modern Vietnam” should protests against Morales continue.

HRF condemns the irresponsible hyperbole in the statements by Bolivia’s Minister of Government Arturo Murillo in which he referred to Quintana as an “animal who thirsts for the blood of Bolivians” when announcing the police operation to catch him.

On Nov. 13, Bolivian police identified a member of the Colombia FARC guerrillas among pro-Morales groups who had clashes with civilians in Santa Cruz, causing the death of two opposition protesters. On Nov. 15, the police arrested nine Venezuelan citizens carrying Venezuelan police uniforms and ID cards. They were escaping with weapons through the border with Brazil, and have since been charged with “sedition” in Bolivia.

HRF further condemns a statement by Bolivia’s new Minister of Communications who, in an interview with reporters, stated that the law would be fully enforced against “Argentine journalists” who were also committing “sedition.” While she later backtracked and expressed the government would guarantee freedom of the press for everyone, all interim government officials must exercise a standard of utmost care given the degree of violence in the current crisis. The Añez government must guarantee that journalists of all domestic and international media are allowed to carry out their work freely.

“Acting government officials must respond to the threats posed by violent protesters with maximum restraint and avoid irreparable damage to the transition government’s international standing by speaking and acting in accordance with international law,” said Halvorssen.



Photo: Soledad Chapetón, an indigenous Aymara woman who has been calling for peace since the conflict started.


The HRF pulls no punches and spares no one, even criticizing the Anez transitional government. It sure blows the exceedingly simplistic and highly cherry-picked "CIA-sponsored, far-right fascist coup" false narrative clean out of the water, doesn't it? The reality is much more complicated than that.
Last edited by New Bremerton on Mon Nov 25, 2019 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:15 pm

Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.
Last edited by Torrocca on Mon Nov 25, 2019 2:23 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:01 pm

Torrocca wrote:Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.

I thought police killing dogs was an American thing…
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Aureumterra
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Postby Aureumterra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 3:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.

And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR
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Chernoslavia
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Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:46 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.

And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR


Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:46 pm

Aureumterra wrote:
Torrocca wrote:Nothing to see here, folks: just the completely normal murder of a certain couped president's dog by a completely normal, completely legitimate government created through the destruction of democracy via a military coup. (No content warning because there's no graphic imagery)

I guess the OAS must've found some irregularities in Morales' dog as well, which totally makes this perfectly justified as well, since so many people are so keen on using the OAS's report as a justification for the Fascist-led protests against a legitimate presidential election, the military-led ousting of Morales, the destruction of democracy in Bolivia, and the mass-murder and mass-harm of dissenters opposed to those first three things, even though the OAS's report has now been disproven by not just one but TWO independent studies.

And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR

Is there anything particularly wrong about CEPR that makes it questionable? Because an analysis of the website shows no obvious factual errors:
LEFT-CENTER BIAS
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
Detailed Report

Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

History:
"Founded in 1999, The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a left leaning economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. According to their about page CEPR was created to “promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people’s lives. In order for citizens to effectively exercise their voices in a democracy, they should be informed about the problems and choices that they face.”

Funded by / Ownership:
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is a nonprofit that is funded through donations. Employees at CEPR are members of the nonprofit professional employees union IFPTE Local 70.

Analysis / Bias:
In review, CEPR is a progressive think tank that researches economics and publishes news. CEPR publishes op-eds on the website that are written by staff. These op-eds appear in other publications such as the left leaning Truthout and the Washington Monthly. CEPR supports the following policy decisions: advocacy for the Affordable Care Act, increasing the minimum wage, as well as advocacy for full employment in the United States. In general, CEPR politically favors the left, however, research is thorough and properly sourced.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) Left-Center biased based on political policy that favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record."
Source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-cent ... -research/

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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:47 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR

Is there anything particularly wrong about CEPR that makes it questionable? Because an analysis of the website shows no obvious factual errors:
LEFT-CENTER BIAS
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
Detailed Report

Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

History:
"Founded in 1999, The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a left leaning economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. According to their about page CEPR was created to “promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people’s lives. In order for citizens to effectively exercise their voices in a democracy, they should be informed about the problems and choices that they face.”

Funded by / Ownership:
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is a nonprofit that is funded through donations. Employees at CEPR are members of the nonprofit professional employees union IFPTE Local 70.

Analysis / Bias:
In review, CEPR is a progressive think tank that researches economics and publishes news. CEPR publishes op-eds on the website that are written by staff. These op-eds appear in other publications such as the left leaning Truthout and the Washington Monthly. CEPR supports the following policy decisions: advocacy for the Affordable Care Act, increasing the minimum wage, as well as advocacy for full employment in the United States. In general, CEPR politically favors the left, however, research is thorough and properly sourced.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) Left-Center biased based on political policy that favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record."
Source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-cent ... -research/


B-B-But facts are bad unless they agree with me!!1! D:
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NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
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Founded: Aug 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:51 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Is there anything particularly wrong about CEPR that makes it questionable? Because an analysis of the website shows no obvious factual errors:
LEFT-CENTER BIAS
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
Detailed Report

Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

History:
"Founded in 1999, The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a left leaning economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. According to their about page CEPR was created to “promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people’s lives. In order for citizens to effectively exercise their voices in a democracy, they should be informed about the problems and choices that they face.”

Funded by / Ownership:
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is a nonprofit that is funded through donations. Employees at CEPR are members of the nonprofit professional employees union IFPTE Local 70.

Analysis / Bias:
In review, CEPR is a progressive think tank that researches economics and publishes news. CEPR publishes op-eds on the website that are written by staff. These op-eds appear in other publications such as the left leaning Truthout and the Washington Monthly. CEPR supports the following policy decisions: advocacy for the Affordable Care Act, increasing the minimum wage, as well as advocacy for full employment in the United States. In general, CEPR politically favors the left, however, research is thorough and properly sourced.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) Left-Center biased based on political policy that favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record."
Source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-cent ... -research/


B-B-But facts are bad unless they agree with me!!1! D:

You've just described all wingnuts and cranks in a nutshell.

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Torrocca
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Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:55 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR


Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.


I truly adore how you tried so hard to completely uncritically shit on me only for you and Aureum to be outplayed by a simple fact-check. It's cute. :3
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They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
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NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
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Chernoslavia
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Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:59 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.


I truly adore how you tried so hard to completely uncritically shit on me only for you and Aureum to be outplayed by a simple fact-check. It's cute. :3


I was referring to your Spanish source. While I can somewhat read and understand it, you should for future reference just post an English source.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:01 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR


Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.



It's kind of cute how you think dunking on me is more important than explaining what is factually wrong with what the source says.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:02 pm

Chernoslavia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I truly adore how you tried so hard to completely uncritically shit on me only for you and Aureum to be outplayed by a simple fact-check. It's cute. :3


I was referring to your Spanish source. While I can somewhat read and understand it, you should for future reference just post an English source.


English sources aren't doing that good to report on the situation in Bolivia, and those that are get screamed at for being "SoCiALiSt StAtE mEdiA" and other dumb, uncritical shit. It's just way easier in general to cite a South-American-based organization.
Last edited by Torrocca on Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:03 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.



It's kind of cute how you think dunking on me is more important than explaining what is factually wrong with what the source says.


Because you should fucking know better than to post shit you know the majority of people here won't understand, and because I can understand what the article says and know that it matches with Torrocca's claim.
Last edited by Chernoslavia on Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:05 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
I was referring to your Spanish source. While I can somewhat read and understand it, you should for future reference just post an English source.


English sources aren't doing that good to report on the situation in Bolivia, and those that are get screamed at for being "SoCiALiSt StAtE mEdiA" and other dumb, uncritical shit. It's just way easier in general to cite a South-American-based organization.


According to who?
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

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Aureumterra
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8521
Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aureumterra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:19 pm

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
Aureumterra wrote:And yet you spectacularly fail yet again to provide a reliable English source for the first claim, and you only provided one reliable independent study, seeing as the other one is from CEPR

Is there anything particularly wrong about CEPR that makes it questionable? Because an analysis of the website shows no obvious factual errors:
LEFT-CENTER BIAS
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
Detailed Report

Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

History:
"Founded in 1999, The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a left leaning economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. According to their about page CEPR was created to “promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people’s lives. In order for citizens to effectively exercise their voices in a democracy, they should be informed about the problems and choices that they face.”

Funded by / Ownership:
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is a nonprofit that is funded through donations. Employees at CEPR are members of the nonprofit professional employees union IFPTE Local 70.

Analysis / Bias:
In review, CEPR is a progressive think tank that researches economics and publishes news. CEPR publishes op-eds on the website that are written by staff. These op-eds appear in other publications such as the left leaning Truthout and the Washington Monthly. CEPR supports the following policy decisions: advocacy for the Affordable Care Act, increasing the minimum wage, as well as advocacy for full employment in the United States. In general, CEPR politically favors the left, however, research is thorough and properly sourced.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) Left-Center biased based on political policy that favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record."
Source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-cent ... -research/

“Progressive Think Tank” end of story
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Aureumterra
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Posts: 8521
Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aureumterra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:22 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Chernoslavia wrote:
Vas does this shit too, it's fucking annoying.


I truly adore how you tried so hard to completely uncritically shit on me only for you and Aureum to be outplayed by a simple fact-check. It's cute. :3

Outplayed how?
NS Parliament: Aditya Sriraam - Unity and Consolidation Party
Latin American Political RP
RightValues
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I’m your average Íslandic NS player
I DO NOT USE NS STATS!
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Greater Miami Shores and La Habana Cuba
Diplomat
 
Posts: 517
Founded: Jan 21, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greater Miami Shores and La Habana Cuba » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:49 pm

For the thread record. I have chosen this nation of Greater Miami Shores and La Habana Cuba to post with on this thread, read my sig. This Post is related to this thread's topic as the link Proves:

I have always stated in one way or the other, the eternal revolutionary communist socialist Cuban military mafia regime of Fidel, Raúl and Diaz-Canel are still involved in spreading revolutions through out South America and Central America and the Caribbean, we are the continuity of the revolution they say.
Miami to Host America’s First ‘Concert Against Communism’

Music industry icons in Miami, Florida, announced the organization of an unprecedented charity concert against communism scheduled for April 11, 2020 – in the heat of a presidential election in which several Democrat candidates have openly embraced socialist ideas.

The “Concert Against Communism” is the brainchild of legendary Miami producer Frankie Marcos and will be co-sponsored by the Cuban Democratic Directorate, a non-profit organization that advocates for human rights on the island. Proceeds for the concert will go to non-profits working to help the victims of communism.

The concert will be geared towards featuring Hispanic artists popular in Miami. Organizer Frankie Marcos and his band, Clouds, are scheduled to perform, as well as salsa legend Willy Chirino, a vocal human rights advocate in the Cuban American community. Also on the list are jazz legend Arturo Sandoval, singer-songwriter Amaury Gutiérrez, reggaeton artist Chocolate MC, and punk rocker Gorki Águila, whose anti-communist anthems have landed him in prison dozens of times while on the island.

As the organizers have months to prepare, they expect to add dozens of acts to the list, as well as appearances by local and national politicians who support the efforts against communism.

Communism is an ideology containing a spectrum of extreme leftist views – from traditional Marxism to Castroism to the personality-cult strain currently ruling China – that champion complete, totalitarian control of the lives of every individual and complete state control of all property, including citizens as property. In light of the fall of the Soviet Union, which openly referred to itself as communism, many who adhere to communist ideology now use other terms with less negative connotations. In Latin America, most of the allies of the Cuban regime identify as “socialist,” attempting to reshape their respective countries in the image of Cuban communism.

Communism has killed over 100 million people in the countries that have embraced it.

The cultural effort arrives in Miami at a pivotal time for Latin America. Following a meeting of the Sao Paulo Forum – a coalition of leftist governments in the region – in July, violent leftist uprisings have spread throughout the continent. Police in Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, and Chile have all arrested Cuban government agents and Venezuelan nationals believed to be working on the part of the socialist dictatorship there participating in riots against the government.

While a wave of leftist leaders greeted Latin America at the turn of the 21st century, the collapse of Venezuela under socialism triggered the election of conservative leaders throughout much of the rest of the region. The longest-serving of the democratically elected socialist leaders, Evo Morales of Bolivia, attempted to stay in power in a fraudulent election last month that led to his resignation – and to a wave of terrorist activity on behalf of his supporters when, fearing prosecution, his Movement Toward Socialism (MAS) party leadership fled with him to Mexico, leaving conservative President Jeanine Áñez in office.

Posted by Greater Miami Shores and La Habana Cuba:
Evo and and Movement Toward Socialism (MAS) party leadership should have fled with him to Cuba, which he loves and praises all the time. where he should live like an average Cuban citizen like my family still in Cuba, not like the rich Cuban privileged governing elite of Cuba, as these Pics Prove:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1134785

“The Cuban exile community, as witness to the oldest communist dictatorship in Latin America, has a platform of fraternity and solidarity to the exile communities of Venezuela, Nicaragua, Bolivia, and all those countries threatened by this ill,” the organizers of the Concert Against Communism said of the event in a press release published last week, promising a series of promotional campaigns explaining the dire consequences of communist policies in countries where they are implemented and the need for more awareness of the problem in the United States.

Miami’s abundant Latin American population makes it a natural host for the event. It is also currently experiencing a backlash against Cuban artists who support the communist regime visiting Miami and making money in the United States, something the Cuban embargo against the United States prevents Cuban-American artists from doing.

Cuban-Americans launched a campaign in September against continued visits to the United States by Gente de Zona, a Latin Grammy-winning tropical pop group that has performed for members of the Castro family and publicly mourned the death of Fidel Castro. Another campaign against communist singer Haila Mompié resulted in Mayor Francis Suárez of Miami declaring her persona non grata in the city and her concerts canceled.

A week ago, Cuban-Americans organized a protest against businesses that book pro-communist artists in Miami, where thousands of people trace their ancestry to, or are directly, the victims of a communist regime.

Follow Frances Martel on Facebook and Twitter.
Source Breitbart:
https://www.breitbart.com/entertainment ... ism-miami/

As a Native Cuban and American Citizen I agree 100 % for obvious reasons, with this Breitbart article.
Last edited by Greater Miami Shores and La Habana Cuba on Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Miami Shores is a Province of Greater La Habana Cuba, and La Habana Cuba is a regional Province of Greater Miami Shores, democratic capitalist Republic.

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Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 53383
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Greed and Death » Mon Nov 25, 2019 6:57 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:Is there anything particularly wrong about CEPR that makes it questionable? Because an analysis of the website shows no obvious factual errors:
LEFT-CENTER BIAS
"These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes) to favor liberal causes. These sources are generally trustworthy for information, but may require further investigation."
Detailed Report

Factual Reporting: HIGH
Country: USA
World Press Freedom Rank: USA 48/180

History:
"Founded in 1999, The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a left leaning economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. According to their about page CEPR was created to “promote democratic debate on the most important economic and social issues that affect people’s lives. In order for citizens to effectively exercise their voices in a democracy, they should be informed about the problems and choices that they face.”

Funded by / Ownership:
The Center for Economic and Policy Research is a nonprofit that is funded through donations. Employees at CEPR are members of the nonprofit professional employees union IFPTE Local 70.

Analysis / Bias:
In review, CEPR is a progressive think tank that researches economics and publishes news. CEPR publishes op-eds on the website that are written by staff. These op-eds appear in other publications such as the left leaning Truthout and the Washington Monthly. CEPR supports the following policy decisions: advocacy for the Affordable Care Act, increasing the minimum wage, as well as advocacy for full employment in the United States. In general, CEPR politically favors the left, however, research is thorough and properly sourced.

A factual search reveals they have not failed a fact check.

Overall, we rate the Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) Left-Center biased based on political policy that favors the left. We also rate them High for factual reporting due to proper sourcing and a clean fact check record."
Source: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-cent ... -research/


B-B-But facts are bad unless they agree with me!!1! D:


CEPR said everything was A OK in Venezuela until video basically showed them collapsed into abject poverty(and in a position worse than most right leaning think tanks were suggesting was likely).
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
Barack Obama

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Aureumterra
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8521
Founded: Oct 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Aureumterra » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:11 pm

Greed and Death wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
B-B-But facts are bad unless they agree with me!!1! D:


CEPR said everything was A OK in Venezuela until video basically showed them collapsed into abject poverty(and in a position worse than most right leaning think tanks were suggesting was likely).

Don’t trust anything that uses the term “think tank”
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Torrocca
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 27691
Founded: Dec 01, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:13 pm

Greed and Death wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
B-B-But facts are bad unless they agree with me!!1! D:


CEPR said everything was A OK in Venezuela until video basically showed them collapsed into abject poverty(and in a position worse than most right leaning think tanks were suggesting was likely).


Repeatedly spouting baseless, unsourced claims must be fun.

Aureumterra wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
CEPR said everything was A OK in Venezuela until video basically showed them collapsed into abject poverty(and in a position worse than most right leaning think tanks were suggesting was likely).

Don’t trust anything that uses the term “think tank”


Uncritically gobbling up baseless, unsourced claims simply because they agree with you must also be fun.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
They call me Torra, but you can call me... anytime (☞⌐■_■)☞
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
NOTICE 1: Anything depicted IC on this nation does NOT reflect my IRL views or values, and is not endorsed by me.
NOTICE 2: Most RP and every OOC post by me prior to 2023 are no longer endorsed nor tolerated by me. I've since put on my adult pants!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

User avatar
Chernoslavia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9890
Founded: Jun 13, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Chernoslavia » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:22 pm

Torrocca wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
CEPR said everything was A OK in Venezuela until video basically showed them collapsed into abject poverty(and in a position worse than most right leaning think tanks were suggesting was likely).


Repeatedly spouting baseless, unsourced claims must be fun.

This is comedy gold :lol2: :rofl:
What would things have been like if every security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive? Or if during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand? The Organs would quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn

User avatar
Nakena
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15010
Founded: May 06, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Nakena » Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:48 pm

New Bremerton wrote:It's horrifying when I look back and think that I used to buy into all this dogmatic, "anti-racist", "anti-imperialist" bullshit as a young, easily impressionable student, and everything just seemed so black-and-white. I'm ashamed of how gullible and easily manipulated I was. Now, the "anti-imperialist" Left's double standards are as clear as day. I resent the fact I used to identify with this group, and I resent the Left for having used me in this way.


It's easy to fall into that, specifically when some media surrounding or social environment somewhat tell you thats the way to go and the good, always right and allaround just side of things. For many people it is still like that. Even moreso when the media tells you the communist dudes were always a bit idealistic and sometimes misguided but somewhat still the good guys of the story. (unless its Stalin maybe)

New Bremerton wrote:But that doesn't mean I'm about to endorse Donald Trump or embrace "traditional values", neoliberal free markets and right-wing conservatism any time soon. I'm not about to hop off one bandwagon simply to hop onto another with all of its biases and prejudices. I refuse to be indoctrinated by radical fanatics all over again.


Its good not to. A lot of people jump from one extreme to another, within a two dimensional scale. They go from far-right to far-left or vice versa. It's a pity and. Even more so when one finds out what made them do so. Resisting indoctrination isnt easy, but I am glad you managed to deprogram. Most people don't. *points around at the forums*

New Bremerton wrote:The HRF pulls no punches and spares no one, even criticizing the Anez transitional government. It sure blows the exceedingly simplistic and highly cherry-picked "CIA-sponsored, far-right fascist coup" false narrative clean out of the water, doesn't it? The reality is much more complicated than that.


Too complicated for the narrative, yet still bad enough in its own right.
Last edited by Nakena on Mon Nov 25, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1016
Founded: Aug 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:30 am

Chernoslavia wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I truly adore how you tried so hard to completely uncritically shit on me only for you and Aureum to be outplayed by a simple fact-check. It's cute. :3


I was referring to your Spanish source. While I can somewhat read and understand it, you should for future reference just post an English source.

Spanish-language sources usually cover Latin American events in more detail than English sources from abroad, especially since said Spanish sources are usually located right in the countries they are covering, and hence they are able to publish more information than for example, Reuters or BBC.

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