Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

[Kernen]

Society does receive something from me. I pay taxes. Society doesn't get any more from this guy.

I suppose when your picking up the tab on bombs and welfare you have done your part to improve the community.

More of my money probably goes to managing native reservations and funding social security than bombs, but once its out of my hands, it isn't my problem anymore.

[EndoHills]

I do in my school, but the majority of people don’t and the teachers don’t care anymore. It’s outdated and I don’t think anyone wants to anymore.

[San Montalbano]

Have you read the Doctrine of Fascism?

Yes, skims. Have you read The Communist Manifesto? Or looked briefly into Das Kapital (The true token tbh)?

Yes some parts

Much of what i learned from leftists is in college on campus or general interaction.

I will not claim to have read the book front to back.

[Tekeristan]

Society does receive something from me. I pay taxes. Society doesn't get any more from this guy.

I would think one would strive to be a slightly better citizen but it is not mandatory. Nor is refusing to do so especially laudible.

He does, whether or not he acknowledges or knows it. Labor in the industrial era is a social product.

[Kernen]

Society does receive something from me. I pay taxes. Society doesn't get any more from this guy.

I would think one would strive to be a slightly better citizen but it is not mandatory. Nor is refusing to do so especially laudible.

I don't particularly care about being a good citizen anymore, so that seems fair.

[Rakenshi]

Demanding that Americans stand for the Pledge or in respect of the flag is pretty anti-American, I feel. Healthier way would be to have a conversation on the issues that has people sitting down in the first place.

If there are social groups within America that don't feel allegiance to the flag or the Pledge, that's the fault of the American government, not the social group.

[San Montalbano]

I would think one would strive to be a slightly better citizen but it is not mandatory. Nor is refusing to do so especially laudible.

I don't particularly care about being a good citizen anymore, so that seems fair.

I think this is an outright lie, if you didnt care about being a good citizen you wouldn’t follow the law.

[Tekeristan]

Yes, skims. Have you read The Communist Manifesto? Or looked briefly into Das Kapital (The true token tbh)?

Yes some parts

Much of what i learned from leftists is in college on campus or general interaction.

I will not claim to have read the book front to back.

I'd recommend reading it through, and if you're willing, Wage Labor and Capital goes into the reasons why capital does what it does far easier than Das Kapital
I don't think anyone can claim to of read Das Kapital front to back that thing is a SLOG

But also, just to extend a bit of an open hand, I do not hold any animosity towards you. If you ever have any questions or just want someone to talk to, feel free to telegram me whenever, or even add me on discord

[Kernen]

I don't particularly care about being a good citizen anymore, so that seems fair.

I think this is an outright lie, if you didnt care about being a good citizen you wouldn’t follow the law.

I follow the law because the risk to my livelihood exceeds the benefit. An ordered society is easier to operate in for my own benefit than a disordered one given my strengths.

[San Montalbano]

I think this is an outright lie, if you didnt care about being a good citizen you wouldn’t follow the law.

I follow the law because the risk to my livelihood exceeds the benefit. An ordered society is easier to operate in for my own benefit than a disordered one given my strengths.

So you care

[Tekeristan]

I follow the law because the risk to my livelihood exceeds the benefit. An ordered society is easier to operate in for my own benefit than a disordered one given my strengths.

So you care

To the extent it benefits him solely.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

We're not speaking of the state, but, rather, of the nation and the country. If you do not owe society, the nation constituting a particular society, anything, why does society owe you anything? It sounds like you want to receive without offering anything in turn.

Society does receive something from me. I pay taxes. Society doesn't get any more from this guy.

Well, what would you consider this banter, nieghbor?

Is it not a contribution of your time of some kind?

We have our ways of getting you to contribute to the greater good.

[Kernen]

I follow the law because the risk to my livelihood exceeds the benefit. An ordered society is easier to operate in for my own benefit than a disordered one given my strengths.

So you care

I think we have a fundemental misunderstanding. I do not care about being a good citizen for its own sake. I care about not going to jail or accruing fines. If I could ignore the law and also avoid punishment, I likely would where it suited me. There is a fundamental difference between wanting to be a good citizen and not wanting to be arrested insofar as intent is at issue.

[Kernen]

Society does receive something from me. I pay taxes. Society doesn't get any more from this guy.

Well, what would you consider this banter, nieghbor?

Is it not a contribution of your time of some kind?

We aren't neighbors.

I'm here the same reason you are. Its fun arguing on General.

[Neutraligon]

I am being quite sincere

Alright then. I suspect we're at an impasse and that you doubt my sincerity as well.

Oh, so you understood all the implications of pledging allegiance to something? You understood what liberty is, with all it's implications? You understood what is meant by the United States, whether it was the laws, or the customs or the people, or any other number of things? You understood what freedom is? These are all rather complicated topics. Forgive me if I do not believe that you understood these with any sort of depth at that age.

I had an adequate enough understanding of these concepts to appreciate the gravity of such a recitation and many of the civic responsibilities that would fall upon my shoulders as an adult.[/quote] I doubt you understood the gravity, though you may have understood that responsibilities. That is the bare bones of what I am talking about there is much more to this pledge then simply understanding the civic responsibility or having a low level understanding of the the gravity

It is not a complicated thing to love and give allegiance to one's country.

Now here I have to disagree, strongly.

The years have deepend my understanding of the oaths I made but have not set my heart to one side or the other. Honestly, depending on what you mean by some of this, nobody should rightly assume the mantle of good citizenship - and that'd be far more problematic.

What I have said about the pledge has nothing to do with good citizenship.

After 9-11 there was a significant rise in nationalism, and a much greater understanding of those who where young of politics and the effect politics can have. There where was a massive cultural shift, as well as change in how people thought of liberty and freedom. There are things that are accepted now, that would never have been accepted before 9-11 because of that change.

9/11 happened while many of us were still in elementary school. If that brought greater understanding then we might well have an explanation for the differences that have come up.

It happened in elementary school for you. For me it happened in middle school, which is typically when students start to become politically aware. I very much doubt you really remember what the world was like before 9-11.

Oh I understood the physical words of the pledge just fine by 13, it was the complexities, nuances, and implications that I had to work through. Neither of the things you commented on fit with what I am describing.

It still falls into the category of ignorance ostensibly though a conscientious rejection of recitation does make that argument a bit difficult to put forward. What complexities, nuances, and implications have you come to better understand since your adolescence? Have they substantively changed the basic meaning and intention behind the pledge?
To some extent I have come to my own decisions on how to balance security and freedom (a question that started being heavily asked due to 9-11). This balance has indeed substantively changed how I understand the pledge, since when I was younger, freedom simply meant that the government could not stop me from doing something. My understanding of what justice for all has also changed a lot from when I was younger. I decided that what was being pledged to was not the government (which is how I initially thought of the pledge) but rather to the people of the nation and the potential it has.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Well, what would you consider this banter, nieghbor?

Is it not a contribution of your time of some kind?

We aren't neighbors.

I'm here the same reason you are. Its fun arguing on General.

P. Sure I could drive to your place on a single tank of gas.
-Got a Prius.

I'll also take that as an admission that you voluntarily contribute your thoughts to society.

[San Montalbano]

Yes some parts

Much of what i learned from leftists is in college on campus or general interaction.

I will not claim to have read the book front to back.

I'd recommend reading it through, and if you're willing, Wage Labor and Capital goes into the reasons why capital does what it does far easier than Das Kapital
I don't think anyone can claim to of read Das Kapital front to back that thing is a SLOG

But also, just to extend a bit of an open hand, I do not hold any animosity towards you. If you ever have any questions or just want someone to talk to, feel free to telegram me whenever, or even add me on discord

I dont think you really want to extend an open hand considering the wording you have used

But feel free to TG me or whatever.

[The Rich Port]

Aren't American soldiers fighting for our right to free speech?

They should be proud when people rebel.

Besides, Star Spangled Banner is a shit national anthem.

Should be the Battle Hymn of the Republic or Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom.

Or at least play Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner.

[San Montalbano]

Aren't American soldiers fighting for our right to free speech?

They should be proud when people rebel.

Besides, Star Spangled Banner is a shit national anthem.

Should be the Battle Hymn of the Republic or Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom.

Or at least play Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner.

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Aren't American soldiers fighting for our right to free speech?

They should be proud when people rebel.

Besides, Star Spangled Banner is a shit national anthem.

Should be the Battle Hymn of the Republic or Shouting the Battle Cry of Freedom.

Or at least play Jimi Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner.

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

So you're saying the battle of Trenton was fought because Washington wanted a loaf of bread?

For what resource, was the battle of Bunker Hill fought for?

The Alamo?

What precious resources were at stake in Vietnam and Korea?
Reagan will tell you why

[San Montalbano]

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

So you're saying the battle of Trenton was fought because Washington wanted a loaf of bread?

No and the war was for independence from british rule, the laws came afterwards.

[San Montalbano]

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

So you're saying the battle of Trenton was fought because Washington wanted a loaf of bread?

For what resource, was the battle of Bunker Hill fought for?

The Alamo?

Texas was helped by the united states because it was new territory l thay could be absorbed

Bunker hill was a battle to secure territory as well.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Territory is not an inherent resource, though.

Bunker hill was fought to deny the British the high ground overlooking Boston, so they could not shell the shipping.

The territory merely held tactical value in controling a strategic asset. Protecting it was a means of defending the well-being of the people of Boston.

[True Refuge]

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

So you're saying the battle of Trenton was fought because Washington wanted a loaf of bread?

For what resource, was the battle of Bunker Hill fought for?

The Alamo?

What precious resources were at stake in Vietnam and Korea?
Reagan will tell you why

The American government now is wildly different to the American government during the 18th century.

Vietnam and Korea were fought to try to fuck with the USSR and Mao’s China (opportunities to do so were a precious resource to the government and CIA at the time), to keep allies, and keep trade open.

Never mind the heinous war crimes committed by the US in both conflicts.

[True Refuge]

Territory is not an inherent resource, though.

Bunker hill was fought to deny the British the high ground overlooking Boston, so they could not shell the shipping.

The territory merely held tactical value in controling a strategic asset. Protecting it was a means of defending the well-being of the people of Boston.

Land is arguably the most important resource of all. It is finite and its potential value outstrips practically every other commodity depending on perspective.