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Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:10 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Are we still pretending that Cultural Marxism is actually a thing and not something the Nazis made up?

Anyone who thinks cultural marxism exists is a bad person and unintentional nazi sympathizer.


Interesting opinion and very tolerant
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:11 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:
> Cultural Marxism believes in class collaberationism
> It believes in 'pretending' to be a 'victim'!

Begone. You know nothing of what you speak, which is extremely typical. Allow me to ask this.
Why do blacks supposedly commit the majority of crime? You are faced with two options. Either it is something to do with their 'race' or 'culture' which somehow stands independent of their material circumstances (Just the way they are!), or it is the history of and current material and social conditions of which they live. If it is the latter, then your so called "Oppression politics" point is utter nonsense.


Blacks commit crime because of the states failure to ensure cultural stability, it allowed things like rap(which often perpetuated killing, rap, drugs etc) to be a norm in black society.

Black society embraces this and raises its children on it, it is tragic as black and white are brothers of the same nation.

…You understand nothing about poverty, violence or music in general.
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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:11 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:
> Cultural Marxism believes in class collaberationism
> It believes in 'pretending' to be a 'victim'!

Begone. You know nothing of what you speak, which is extremely typical. Allow me to ask this.
Why do blacks supposedly commit the majority of crime? You are faced with two options. Either it is something to do with their 'race' or 'culture' which somehow stands independent of their material circumstances (Just the way they are!), or it is the history of and current material and social conditions of which they live. If it is the latter, then your so called "Oppression politics" point is utter nonsense.


Blacks commit crime because of the states failure to ensure cultural stability, it allowed things like rap(which often perpetuated killing, rap, drugs etc) to be a norm in black society.

Black society embraces this and raises its children on it, it is tragic as black and white are brothers of the same nation.

So it is the fault of black people rather than society and its historical trends?

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:12 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Eternal Lotharia wrote:Anyone who thinks cultural marxism exists is a bad person and unintentional nazi sympathizer.


Interesting opinion and very tolerant

Just say "So much for the tolerant left", it's funnier that way.

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:12 pm

Kowani wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Blacks commit crime because of the states failure to ensure cultural stability, it allowed things like rap(which often perpetuated killing, rap, drugs etc) to be a norm in black society.

Black society embraces this and raises its children on it, it is tragic as black and white are brothers of the same nation.

…You understand nothing about poverty, violence or music in general.

As has been shown endlessly, fascism doesn't base itself as a cohesive or even based ideology. It's gut feelings and unsourced observations of 'trends' as opposed to social and material forces

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:12 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Blacks commit crime because of the states failure to ensure cultural stability, it allowed things like rap(which often perpetuated killing, rap, drugs etc) to be a norm in black society.

Black society embraces this and raises its children on it, it is tragic as black and white are brothers of the same nation.

So it is the fault of black people rather than society and its historical trends?


Black community leaders and the currupt globalist corporate state are

General black people? No
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:13 pm

Fahran wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:None of which has to do with if sitting during the pledge is in fact disrespectful.

You've offered one example where it might not be, and I'm inclined to question the sincerity of someone who chooses to sit because they feel they do not understand it given what they would know by the time they reached middle school. In any case, it's an appeal to one of the three categories I set aside - in this case ignorance.

And I don't mean to be a raging bitch but I tend to presume that other people learn as quickly as I do and am genuinely surprised when they do not. And I don't think of myself as being brilliant in the slightest. Maybe slightly above average at best.

I have seen no evidence that you are in anyway a faster learner then I. My experience in general was that children in middle school either did not care, or did not think about the complexities that come with the pledge (for that matter many adults do not think of it either). To them it was a useless series of words they had to get through in the morning....Well that was until 9-11 happened. Things kinda changed after that. As to it being ignorance, depends exactly what you mean when you say that people do not say it due to ignorance.
Last edited by Neutraligon on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:13 pm

Ifreann wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Interesting opinion and very tolerant

Just say "So much for the tolerant left", it's funnier that way.


That would assume i think the modern left is tolerant, they are not
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:15 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:So it is the fault of black people rather than society and its historical trends?


Black community leaders and the currupt globalist corporate state are

General black people? No

What a weak cop-out
If the Blacks just pulled themselves up by their boot straps and put on a suit and tie, then clearly it wouldn't all be an issue.
What is this weird fascistic fetishization of "civility" and "order"? It's so utterly detached

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The Holy Therns
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Postby The Holy Therns » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Whether or not it's disrespectful is meaningless to me. If a society gets that worked up about it, that society has some flaws it needs to look at.
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Plzen
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Postby Plzen » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Tekeristan wrote:As has been shown endlessly, fascism doesn't base itself as a cohesive or even based ideology. It's gut feelings and unsourced observations of 'trends' as opposed to social and material forces

The best way to argue with someone standing on a mountain of abstractions given substance solely through linguistic tricks is to ask them to define, clearly and unambiguously, the terms that they use. In many cases this alone is enough to show how ridiculous the arguments build on these concepts are.

We all saw the definition for "cultural Marxism." Should I start hounding after a definition of "fascism?" It's a lot harder for these extremists when they are forced to define their own position and defend it, rather than simply attacking the flaws of a system from some nebulous extremist ideal.
Last edited by Plzen on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:16 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Black community leaders and the currupt globalist corporate state are

General black people? No

What a weak cop-out
If the Blacks just pulled themselves up by their boot straps and put on a suit and tie, then clearly it wouldn't all be an issue.
What is this weird fascistic fetishization of "civility" and "order"? It's so utterly detached


Who said they had to do it on their own? The state should be collaberating with black leadership
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:17 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Just say "So much for the tolerant left", it's funnier that way.


That would assume i think the modern left is tolerant, they are not

That would assume nothing of the sort. It means literally the opposite of that.

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Ifreann wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
That would assume i think the modern left is tolerant, they are not

That would assume nothing of the sort. It means literally the opposite of that.


Do you think the modern left is tolerant?
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Plzen wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:As has been shown endlessly, fascism doesn't base itself as a cohesive or even based ideology. It's gut feelings and unsourced observations of 'trends' as opposed to social and material forces

The best way to argue with someone standing on a mountain of abstractions given substance solely through linguistic tricks is to ask them to define, clearly and unambiguously, the terms that they use. In many cases this alone is enough to show how ridiculous the arguments build on these concepts are.

We all saw the definition for "cultural Marxism." Should I start hounding after a definition of "fascism?" It's a lot harder for these extremists when they are forced to define their own position and defend it, rather than simply attacking the flaws of a system from some nebulous extremist ideal.

I have an odd sympathy for fascists, which is a super sour thing for me to say, but it's because I have enough empathy to know where they come from. There is also the slightest, slightest cut of respect, because at least they acknowledge that something is fundamentally wrong with the way things are. The problem is they don't follow things to their conclusion.

But rather than be faced with discomfort, they chase more tales that are easier and more comforting to understand. One can't blame a cold dog for lying where it is warm, but that's just not the world we live in.

Plus, there's a whole emotional front to it, but that's a whole story in of itself.

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Fahran
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Postby Fahran » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:18 pm

Ifreann wrote:Not really. America can have some things that are good and some that are bad and a person might denounce the bad while benefiting from the good. Nothing counter-intuitive here, unless you think respect for a country must be an all or nothing affair. Love it or leave it. You're either with us or with the terrorists.

Except refusing to pledge allegiance doesn't leave room for greys. You're stating that you lack loyalty to the country because it doesn't deserve your loyalty, that you value your own comfort and leisure more than you value open demonstration of your loyalty, or you make up some other rationalization that reveals or even concedes ignorance of what the pledge means. If you wanted to express your loyalty while protesting, you could do that. But refusing to recite the pledge doesn't do that. It is by its very nature throwing out baby with bathwater.

Ifreann wrote:Where on Earth did you get the idea that people who don't participate in the pledge do not have positive contributions to make towards the community?

Why should I bother listening to someone who does not have my best interest and the best interests of the community at large at heart?

Ifreann wrote:Declining to participate in the pledge doesn't necessarily constitute a protest.

All of the examples that have been cited seem to suggest one form of protest or another. The only exceptions that occur to me relate to those who have suffered such severe health issues that they're unable to recite it without excessive pain or difficulty. Even the "I didn't understand it" argument was ostensibly a form of protest against children having the ability to adequately honor such a pledge.

Ifreann wrote:No it doesn't. It suggests nothing. You've left yourself enough space to say "Well that doesn't count" to literally anything I might say. So no, you prove your assertion to be true. I assume you have some kind of large scale survey of reasons for why people decline to participate in the pledge. That or you're just making shit up, like one of those "There are two kinds of people" things.

It's a refutable hypothesis.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:19 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Ifreann wrote:That would assume nothing of the sort. It means literally the opposite of that.


Do you think the modern left is tolerant?


There is nothing inherent to the idea of tolerance that includes it being 'tolerate' of the intolerant.
It's the paradox of tolerance.

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:20 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:What a weak cop-out
If the Blacks just pulled themselves up by their boot straps and put on a suit and tie, then clearly it wouldn't all be an issue.
What is this weird fascistic fetishization of "civility" and "order"? It's so utterly detached


Who said they had to do it on their own? The state should be collaberating with black leadership

That state is explicitly not interested in doing so and the reason is that there are social-economic benefits to certain people in keeping things the way they are

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:22 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Do you think the modern left is tolerant?


There is nothing inherent to the idea of tolerance that includes it being 'tolerate' of the intolerant.
It's the paradox of tolerance.


False

Tolerance implies you are accepting something even if you disagree with it

I tolerate you for example
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Tekeristan
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Founded: Mar 08, 2015
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:23 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:
There is nothing inherent to the idea of tolerance that includes it being 'tolerate' of the intolerant.
It's the paradox of tolerance.


False

Tolerance implies you are accepting something even if you disagree with it

I tolerate you for example


Tolerance is accepting other people. It's not about accepting those who seek to degrade, dehumanize, or destroy you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance easy link for you.

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:23 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Who said they had to do it on their own? The state should be collaberating with black leadership

That state is explicitly not interested in doing so and the reason is that there are social-economic benefits to certain people in keeping things the way they are


Agreed the state puts profits above its own people, tragic.
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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Fahran
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Posts: 19479
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Fahran » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm

Neutraligon wrote:I have seen no evidence that you are in anyway a faster learner then I.

Hence why I doubt your sincerity. I understood the pledge of allegiance quite early, and adequately enough to recite it without quibble or misgivings. There's not much in the words themselves that would muddle understanding.

Neutraligon wrote:IMy experience in general was that children in middle school either did not care, or did not think about the complexities that come with the pledge (for that matter many adults do not think of it either). To them it was a useless series of words they had to get through in the morning....Well that was until 9-11 happened.

What new meaning did it assume in the aftermath of 9/11?

Neutraligon wrote:IThings kinda changed after that. As to it being ignorance, depends exactly what you mean when you say that people do not say it due to ignorance.

"I do not understand it and so I do not recite it" or "I'm angry about this and so I do not recite it even though I'm still a loyal citizen." One confesses ignorance of meaning. The other reveals it unintentionally.
"Then it was as if all the beauty of Ardha, devastating in its color and form and movement, recalled to him, more and more, the First Music, though reflected dimly. Thus Alnair wept bitterly, lamenting the notes which had begun to fade from his memory. He, who had composed the world's first poem upon spying a gazelle and who had played the world's first song upon encountering a dove perched upon a moringa, in beauty, now found only suffering and longing. Such it must be for all among the djinn, souls of flame and ash slowly dwindling to cinders in the elder days of the world."

- Song of the Fallen Star

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Tekeristan
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Postby Tekeristan » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:24 pm

San Montalbano wrote:
Tekeristan wrote:That state is explicitly not interested in doing so and the reason is that there are social-economic benefits to certain people in keeping things the way they are


Agreed the state puts profits above its own people, tragic.

It is tragic, I'd go as far to say it is extremely tragic.
Now why do they that? Who's interests are they bulwarking in doing so?
Would it, perhaps, be capital?

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San Montalbano
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Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:25 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
False

Tolerance implies you are accepting something even if you disagree with it

I tolerate you for example


Tolerance is accepting other people. It's not about accepting those who seek to degrade, dehumanize, or destroy you.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance easy link for you.


Sort of how you degrade people onto being nazi sympathizers and call people like steven crowder fascist or have i mistaken you for someone else.
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

User avatar
San Montalbano
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Posts: 1521
Founded: Jan 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby San Montalbano » Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:26 pm

Tekeristan wrote:
San Montalbano wrote:
Agreed the state puts profits above its own people, tragic.

It is tragic, I'd go as far to say it is extremely tragic.
Now why do they that? Who's interests are they bulwarking in doing so?
Would it, perhaps, be capital?


Globalist capitalism that has been left unchecked

They work for themselves and the elites across the oceans disregarding their tribes.
“Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor.”
“We have buried the putrid corpse of liberty”
"We have the duty, not the right, to defend our territories if the state is absent"
“The truth is that men are tired of liberty.”
Fascism is the modern states national and natural immune response to unchained capitalism and subversive Marxist ideology.

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