Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

[Kernen]

They get to do it on their own time. Just like they get to for prayers.

Why should the majority of people be forced to change their schedule for the few who don't want to do it?

Because loyalty oaths have no place being administered as part of a daily routine. Keep up.

Are you really upset at getting 2 extra minutes a day?

[Satuga]

Why should the majority of people be forced to change their schedule for the few who don't want to do it?

Because loyalty oaths have no place being administered as part of a daily routine. Keep up.

Are you really upset at getting 2 extra minutes a day?

And who gets to decide that? You?

I could say the same about those who sit couldn't I?

[San Montalbano]

American soldiers fight for the interests of the state, primarily resources.

Everything else is secondary.

Wow. Way to shit on the mission of literally every single branch of the armed forces of America for a stupid argument.

And... Why the FUCK should we respect that pledge, then?

Fuck the resources and fuck the Corporate Armed Forces.

To say otherwise is to be naive, constitutional rights are “protected” but to believe that money/territory/resources isn’t ultimatley king is well...naive.

[Satuga]

I think this goes both ways.

No, I got yours locked in. You seem to think there's no harm to opting out of a mandated oath. I'm arguing several points:

1. One should always be suspicious is of those in power, because those in power dont have your best interests at heart;

2. The paradigm of the oath being the default and no oath being the exception is itself absurd, so there should be no oath, especially administered by schools for minors.

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

[Kernen]

Because loyalty oaths have no place being administered as part of a daily routine. Keep up.

Are you really upset at getting 2 extra minutes a day?

And who gets to decide that? You?

I could say the same about those who sit couldn't I?

Ineffectively, since the null option is inaction.

If a loyalty oath to a religious entity isnt permissible, why shouldn't we administer the same logic to a governmental entity? Further, given that children must recite this oath long before they understand the nature of the oath, I'd argue that the conflict between brainwashing vs not brainwashing should obviously default to not brainwashing. You cannot undo the harm of requiring recitation.

On top of all that, we can address the inherent action/inaction dichotomy inherent here. A missed benefit is never perceived as as bad as an unavoided harm of similar magnitude.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, I got yours locked in. You seem to think there's no harm to opting out of a mandated oath. I'm arguing several points:

1. One should always be suspicious is of those in power, because those in power dont have your best interests at heart;

2. The paradigm of the oath being the default and no oath being the exception is itself absurd, so there should be no oath, especially administered by schools for minors.

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

To be perfectly honest about point 2: we all do. You, me, everyone. We all project our own opinions on how things should be ran.

[Fahran]

I hold no personal allegiance to any government.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you held allegiance to your national community.

[Kernen]

No, I got yours locked in. You seem to think there's no harm to opting out of a mandated oath. I'm arguing several points:

1. One should always be suspicious is of those in power, because those in power dont have your best interests at heart;

2. The paradigm of the oath being the default and no oath being the exception is itself absurd, so there should be no oath, especially administered by schools for minors.

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

Sitting is itself the protest, friendo.

[Tekeristan]

No, I got yours locked in. You seem to think there's no harm to opting out of a mandated oath. I'm arguing several points:

1. One should always be suspicious is of those in power, because those in power dont have your best interests at heart;

2. The paradigm of the oath being the default and no oath being the exception is itself absurd, so there should be no oath, especially administered by schools for minors.

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

I don't necessarily think you know exactly what "Sheep" means

[Kernen]

I hold no personal allegiance to any government.

That's not what I asked. I asked if you held allegiance to your national community.

Definitely not.

[Fahran]

That's not what I asked. I asked if you held allegiance to your national community.

Definitely not.

Then you pay taxes, register for the draft, and uphold laws purely to escape physical discomfort for yourself?

[Kernen]

Definitely not.

Then you pay taxes, register for the draft, and uphold laws purely to escape physical discomfort for yourself?

Why else would I do those things?

[San Montalbano]

Then you pay taxes, register for the draft, and uphold laws purely to escape physical discomfort for yourself?

Why else would I do those things?

Sounds like you feel like your being held hostage.

[Fahran]

Then you pay taxes, register for the draft, and uphold laws purely to escape physical discomfort for yourself?

Why else would I do those things?

Because you value the community and your countrymen, would like to contribute towards them, would like to protect them, and would like to maintain an agreeable sense of order within and between them. Because you're not purely concerned with yourself or ideological abstractions. Because giving back is commendable and virtuous.

[Satuga]

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

Sitting is itself the protest, friendo.

I meant it as an expression not literally sitting, the whole point was that you should take action, not do nothing about it.

[Satuga]

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

I don't necessarily think you know exactly what "Sheep" means

look at my above post, I think you guys were taking it too literally.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Why else would I do those things?

Because you value the community and your countrymen, would like to contribute towards them, would like to protect them, and would like to maintain an agreeable sense of order within and between them. Because you're not purely concerned with yourself or ideological abstractions. Because giving back is commendable and virtuous.

I think you’re being too idealistic here. I don’t begrudge you if this is the way you yourself proceed, but there are many people who view this the same way as Kernen and there’s nothing wrong with that.

[Satuga]

1. You're right you should be suspicious but that doesn't mean you should sit there like a sheep if you have a problem especially if said problem has been argued before.
2. Who gets to say what is and isn't absurd, to me it seems like you're only projecting your own opinion of how things should be ran.

To be perfectly honest about point 2: we all do. You, me, everyone. We all project our own opinions on how things should be ran.

Honestly yeah, it's kinda how the entire world is.

[Fahran]

I don't necessarily think you know exactly what "Sheep" means

I still don't get why people use the word "sheep" as an insult. I like sheep better than I like most people.

[Fahran]

I think you’re being too idealistic here. I don’t begrudge you if this is the way you yourself proceed, but there are many people who view this the same way as Kernen and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I do have quite a few criticisms of my political community, but I perceive loyally protesting those as yet another means of rendering service to the political community. I feel like the view that we don't owe loyalty or allegiance to anyone or anything other than ourselves and our ideals severely weakens our ties to others and to the institutions that bring us together in common identity and cause. It leaves us listless and alone more often than not, and we've seen aloneness growing as a result. I don't think being disloyal or lacking allegiance necessarily makes someone a bad person, but I don't think it's lends itself to a happy outcome over the course of decades and centuries.

[Tekeristan]

I don't necessarily think you know exactly what "Sheep" means

I still don't get why people use the word "sheep" as an insult. I like sheep better than I like most people.

Ignorance is bliss. Sheep refers to people who 'mindlessly" follow something (As sheep are incredibly dumb animals, just like us!), so you can imagine how it's tossed around between people with opposing viewpoints, especially by those criticizing support for the establishment or status quo.
I tend to try and think higher of people, but sometimes they are utterly incapable of thinking outside of the box

[Satuga]

I don't necessarily think you know exactly what "Sheep" means

I still don't get why people use the word "sheep" as an insult. I like sheep better than I like most people.

I suppose I could use lemmings but that would be untruthful.

[Kernen]

Why else would I do those things?

Sounds like you feel like your being held hostage.

That's a strong phrasing. I feel like it is the cost of working within the system. I dislike the cost, and I would evade it if I could, but the benefits are worth it. It's the toll road to financial success.

Why else would I do those things?

Because you value the community and your countrymen, would like to contribute towards them, would like to protect them, and would like to maintain an agreeable sense of order within and between them. Because you're not purely concerned with yourself or ideological abstractions. Because giving back is commendable and virtuous.

I do none of those things. You may. I dont.

Sitting is itself the protest, friendo.

I meant it as an expression not literally sitting, the whole point was that you should take action, not do nothing about it.

Just because you dont see the action I take doesn't mean I'm not taking it.

[Fahran]

I do none of those things. You may. I dont.

Let me ask then. What do you value? Family, religion, philanthropy?

[Fahran]

Ignorance is bliss. Sheep refers to people who 'mindlessly" follow something (As sheep are incredibly dumb animals, just like us!), so you can imagine how it's tossed around between people with opposing viewpoints, especially by those criticizing support for the establishment or status quo.
I tend to try and think higher of people, but sometimes they are utterly incapable of thinking outside of the box

Oh, I get that. We call people that because sheep can be herded with relative ease if you know what you're doing. I was making a joke of sorts.