Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Then don't. But don't act like you're doing something special either.

I wish people stopped seeing it as something special.
Hell if people didn't make such a big deal out of it this thread wouldn't have existed.
Its a preference that frankly is just as personal as pray.

[Satuga]

Then don't. But don't act like you're doing something special either.

I don't. But when I see everyone else reciting it with droning robotic voices, it's hard not to. I think most people do it because they are made to do it. I don't know very many people who take the pledge of their own volition.

Anyone can stop at anytime it's not Illegal to not say the pledge.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I don't. But when I see everyone else reciting it with droning robotic voices, it's hard not to. I think most people do it because they are made to do it. I don't know very many people who take the pledge of their own volition.

Anyone can stop at anytime it's not Illegal to not say the pledge.

It's not illegal, but in a lot of places it's essentially enforced. Again, if I don't do it at school, it could lead to me getting into trouble.

[Satuga]

Anyone can stop at anytime it's not Illegal to not say the pledge.

It's not illegal, but in a lot of places it's essentially enforced. Again, if I don't do it at school, it could lead to me getting into trouble.

Are you in a private school? Cause if you're in a public school they have no authority to force you to do the pledge and if they try could get in legal trouble for violation of the 1st amendment.

[Vassenor]

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Well first, you're not pledging to the flag itself but the ideals it represents. And second it's not like you're being legally bounded to the country through the pledge, the pledge itself has no legal ramifications for saying it.

>pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States

>not pledging to the flag

[Oxes Republic]

No, but it is kind of pointless. Ooh look you're so cool and edgy not participating. Same with kneeling during the anthem. Congratulations. You sat down while a song played. Truly, you're the new martin luther king.

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Missing: And to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all

When you say the pledge, you are swearing allegiance to America, which is a set of values. These values of freedom of speech are an American ideology which protects you and gives you the right to not say it ironically. Its still nice and respectful to say you respect these values and not saying I worship this cloth. And you may say most of the world is free, but

a. Some countries still dont have the freedoms protected as we do
and
b. the countries who are free have a bit of a suppression problem

The case of R v Elliott is believed to be the first instance of a Canadian being prosecuted for speech via Twitter, an online digital forum, with potential implications for online freedom of speech in Canada.[22][23] The Ontario Court of Justice later dismissed the charges due to a lack of evidence and criminal intent, finding that Gregory Alan Elliot engaged in limited legitimate and free debate, although potentially vulgar and obscene.[24] In addition, it was asserted that those who create hashtags on Twitter, do not ultimately control the tweets utilizing said hashtags, and that the prosecution's claims partly rested on those impersonating Elliot. Elliot could not be found guilty for actions not committed by himself.[25] Wikipedia

So people online are being threatened with suppresion

[Satuga]

Well first, you're not pledging to the flag itself but the ideals it represents. And second it's not like you're being legally bounded to the country through the pledge, the pledge itself has no legal ramifications for saying it.

>pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States

>not pledging to the flag

>to the republic for which it stands

[West Leas Oros 2]

It's not illegal, but in a lot of places it's essentially enforced. Again, if I don't do it at school, it could lead to me getting into trouble.

Are you in a private school? Cause if you're in a public school they have no authority to force you to do the pledge and if they try could get in legal trouble for violation of the 1st amendment.

No, i'm not in a private school, I just don't want to risk ruining my reputation or getting in trouble. Besides, I don't really have a reason to press any charges. Too much hassle.

[Vassenor]

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Missing: And to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all

When you say the pledge, you are swearing allegiance to America, which is a set of values. These values of freedom of speech are an American ideology which protects you and gives you the right to not say it ironically. Its still nice and respectful to say you respect these values and not saying I worship this cloth. And you may say most of the world is free, but

a. Some countries still dont have the freedoms protected as we do
and
b. the countries who are free have a bit of a suppression problem

The case of R v Elliott is believed to be the first instance of a Canadian being prosecuted for speech via Twitter, an online digital forum, with potential implications for online freedom of speech in Canada.[22][23] The Ontario Court of Justice later dismissed the charges due to a lack of evidence and criminal intent, finding that Gregory Alan Elliot engaged in limited legitimate and free debate, although potentially vulgar and obscene.[24] In addition, it was asserted that those who create hashtags on Twitter, do not ultimately control the tweets utilizing said hashtags, and that the prosecution's claims partly rested on those impersonating Elliot. Elliot could not be found guilty for actions not committed by himself.[25] Wikipedia

So people online are being threatened with suppresion

That "and" is important. You are swearing allegiance to the cloth and the values.

[Autumn Wind]

It’s a joke. Some people refuse to believe that there is anything odd with forcing children to profess loyalty to the state but if when you include the original Roman salute suddenly it’s bad.

It’s sort of like when people make a big deal about how better things were in the fifties, but then you bring up segregation as a positive, forcing them to backtrack.

I've told you before it's not illegal to not say the pledge or anthem, also with the salute thing you could say the same exact thing about the swastika, in which through many religions it was known as a symbol of peace however the nazis changed it. Does that mean it's unacceptable when someone sees a deviation of the swastika?

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

[Satuga]

Missing: And to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all

When you say the pledge, you are swearing allegiance to America, which is a set of values. These values of freedom of speech are an American ideology which protects you and gives you the right to not say it ironically. Its still nice and respectful to say you respect these values and not saying I worship this cloth. And you may say most of the world is free, but

a. Some countries still dont have the freedoms protected as we do
and
b. the countries who are free have a bit of a suppression problem

The case of R v Elliott is believed to be the first instance of a Canadian being prosecuted for speech via Twitter, an online digital forum, with potential implications for online freedom of speech in Canada.[22][23] The Ontario Court of Justice later dismissed the charges due to a lack of evidence and criminal intent, finding that Gregory Alan Elliot engaged in limited legitimate and free debate, although potentially vulgar and obscene.[24] In addition, it was asserted that those who create hashtags on Twitter, do not ultimately control the tweets utilizing said hashtags, and that the prosecution's claims partly rested on those impersonating Elliot. Elliot could not be found guilty for actions not committed by himself.[25] Wikipedia

So people online are being threatened with suppresion

That "and" is important. You are swearing allegiance to the cloth and the values.

So is the "for which it stands" whether you want to take it literally(As in the flag is raised here) or not(in which it represents) is purely up to your interpretation.

[West Leas Oros 2]

I've told you before it's not illegal to not say the pledge or anthem, also with the salute thing you could say the same exact thing about the swastika, in which through many religions it was known as a symbol of peace however the nazis changed it. Does that mean it's unacceptable when someone sees a deviation of the swastika?

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because it's absolutely ok when America does it.

But seriously, I think part of it is because the USA is "good", therefore pledging loyalty to it is "good" too.

[Satuga]

I've told you before it's not illegal to not say the pledge or anthem, also with the salute thing you could say the same exact thing about the swastika, in which through many religions it was known as a symbol of peace however the nazis changed it. Does that mean it's unacceptable when someone sees a deviation of the swastika?

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because pledging has been a thing for generations before the nazis and the only reason why it hasn't gained such a traction is because the west is knows of the pledge while the they are ignorant about the salute or swastika. So honestly it's western ignorance that caused it.

[Satuga]

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because it's absolutely ok when America does it.

But seriously, I think part of it is because the USA is "good", therefore pledging loyalty to it is "good" too.

Almost every country has a pledge and/or anthem this argument is irrelevant.

[Oxes Republic]

That "and" is important. You are swearing allegiance to the cloth and the values.

Well the cloth isn't gonna start telling you to heil and sacrifice your firstborn child

[Oxes Republic]

So is the "for which it stands" whether you want to take it literally(As in the flag is raised here) or not(in which it represents) is purely up to your interpretation.

you forgot the to the republic for which it stands which being the United States of America implies its the United States republic and their values

[Vassenor]

Because it's absolutely ok when America does it.

But seriously, I think part of it is because the USA is "good", therefore pledging loyalty to it is "good" too.

Almost every country has a pledge and/or anthem this argument is irrelevant.

And how many other countries make school kids recite said pledge daily?

[Fahran]

That "and" is important. You are swearing allegiance to the cloth and the values.

Vass, do you oppose an indivisible republic with liberty and justice for all?

[West Leas Oros 2]

People usually give me the same reasons for why it's "disrespectful". It's usually either "Y U NO LOVE AMERICA? Show teh nashunal pride!!!!!" or "PEEPOL DIED FOR THIS COUNTRY! You MUST stand to honor them!!!!"

[Fahran]

Almost every country has a pledge and/or anthem this argument is irrelevant.

And how many other countries make school kids recite said pledge daily?

Does that actually matter?

[Satuga]

So is the "for which it stands" whether you want to take it literally(As in the flag is raised here) or not(in which it represents) is purely up to your interpretation.

you forgot the to the republic for which it stands which being the United States of America implies its the United States republic and their values

I didn't forget it the whole argument they were making is that you are pledging to the flag and the country rather than the country and what the flag and country stands for.

[Dogmeat]

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because pledging has been a thing for generations before the nazis and the only reason why it hasn't gained such a traction is because the west is knows of the pledge while the they are ignorant about the salute or swastika. So honestly it's western ignorance that caused it.

Umm... no. While the pledge was created in an alternate form in the 1890s, it wasn't widely used until the rise of Nationalism in the 1930s. So it's concurrent with the Nazis.

The pledge in it's modern form didn't exist until 1954. Not exactly pre-Nazi.

[Fahran]

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because the Nazis committed genocide, created a totalitarian regime, and were built upon a cult of personality around Hitler. The Nazis also didn't have a democratic process and constitution that strove to the standard of liberty and justice for all.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Because pledging has been a thing for generations before the nazis and the only reason why it hasn't gained such a traction is because the west is knows of the pledge while the they are ignorant about the salute or swastika. So honestly it's western ignorance that caused it.

Umm... no. While the pledge was created in an alternate form in the 1890s, it wasn't widely used until the rise of Nationalism in the 1930s. So it's concurrent with the Nazis.

The pledge in it's modern form didn't exist until 1954. Not exactly pre-Nazi.

I know they added the "Under God" part then... That's actually were I first had my dislike of it.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Right. But why is it that Nazis only ruined the “holding your hand in the air” part but not the “requiring children to pledge loyalty to the state” part?

Because the Nazis committed genocide, created a totalitarian regime, and were built upon a cult of personality around Hitler. The Nazis also didn't have a democratic process and constitution that strove to the standard of liberty and justice for all.

But why then, should we be doing something that the Nazis themselves did and would support? Wouldn't you have something to say about it if you heard that German schoolchildren were forced to praise their nation and the values of the Nazi regime? Why is it different just because America is one of the "good guys"?