Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

[Fahran]

We must repair the rifts, comrade. State-mandated family counseling to the rescue.

...

I'm a Libertarian now.

Begone, objectivist.

[San Montalbano]

A pledge is not inherently fascistic.
The pledge, and the way in which it is currently implemented, is.

I will simply reiterate that our resident progressives and leftists do not comprehend the distinction between fascism and patriotism or nationalism because, by and large, they are not nationalists or patriots. And I do not intend this in a derisive way. When a person becomes accustomed to listlessness or to identities that do not align with localism, an inevitable tendency under our present neoliberal order, they begin to perceive the regalia of nationalism and ethnic identity as fascist or chauvinist even when that is not in fact the case. We shall observe that many who find pledges most offensive identify as citizens of the world rather than citizens of a particular nation and proceed to pick apart all institutions and conventions that have hitherto demarcated boundaries and given meaning.

The part about “global citizens” is great i agree

[Gagium]

A pledge is not inherently fascistic.
The pledge, and the way in which it is currently implemented, is.

When a person becomes accustomed to listlessness or to identities that do not align with localism, an inevitable tendency under our present neoliberal order, they begin to perceive the regalia of nationalism and ethnic identity as fascist

Hardly so, an irrational lack of understanding of what “fascism” is doesn’t derive from being a globalist.

[San Montalbano]

When a person becomes accustomed to listlessness or to identities that do not align with localism, an inevitable tendency under our present neoliberal order, they begin to perceive the regalia of nationalism and ethnic identity as fascist

Hardly so, an irrational lack of understanding of what “fascism” is doesn’t derive from being a globalist.

I blame leftists calling those whom may even be center-right as fascist, sad they get mislabeled.

[Gagium]

For which it stands

Liberty and justice for all

Regardless a pledge is not fascistic, because you can pledge to go to war with someone, pledge to go hiking, be a good person etc etc

A pledge is not inherently fascistic.
The pledge, and the way in which it is currently implemented, is.

Ah yes, the fascist pledge “to the Republic for which it stands”

[Gagium]

Hardly so, an irrational lack of understanding of what “fascism” is doesn’t derive from being a globalist.

I blame leftists calling those whom may even be center-right as fascist, sad they get mislabeled.

Yes, I’d say it’s more of an issue with our media culture - Largely driven by leftists indeed -, but that’s very much domestic..

[Fahran]

The part about “global citizens” is great i agree

As long as there are no tirades about the Jews, we're good.

Ain't nobody got time for that. I grow weary of chasing Antisemites out of threads.

[Ifreann]

A pledge is not inherently fascistic.
The pledge, and the way in which it is currently implemented, is.

Ah yes, the fascist pledge “to the Republic for which it stands”

Making children stand and pledge allegiance to the state every day, a true sign of freedom. You owe everything to the state, children. You would be nothing without it.

[Fahran]

Hardly so, an irrational lack of understanding of what “fascism” is doesn’t derive from being a globalist.

Many of those who instinctively recoil from nationalism or patriotism vocalize globalist sentiments.

[Gagium]

Ah yes, the fascist pledge “to the Republic for which it stands”

Making children stand and pledge allegiance to the state every day, a true sign of freedom. You owe everything to the state, children. You would be nothing without it.

By your logic, would you be implying that we shouldn’t force children to go to school in the name of “true freedom”? That hardly sounds any different than having them recite the pledge of allegiance while they’re there anyways.

[Fahran]

Ah yes, the fascist pledge “to the Republic for which it stands”

Making children stand and pledge allegiance to the state every day, a true sign of freedom. You owe everything to the state, children. You would be nothing without it.

It's not mandatory. And they owe quite a bit to the political community and manifestations thereof, whether they acknowledge that or not.

[Fahran]

Begone, objectivist.

I'm Anarcho-Totalitarian now.

Oddly enough, I could probably corrupt Carl Schmitt's critique of liberalism into an anarcho-totalist fever dream. I might do it anyway out of spite.

[Gagium]

Hardly so, an irrational lack of understanding of what “fascism” is doesn’t derive from being a globalist.

Many of those who instinctively recoil from nationalism or patriotism vocalize globalist sentiments.

You’re not wrong, I don’t think it necessarily is derived from them being a globalist though..But you’re not wrong at all here.

[Ifreann]

Making children stand and pledge allegiance to the state every day, a true sign of freedom. You owe everything to the state, children. You would be nothing without it.

By your logic, would you be implying that we shouldn’t force children to go to school in the name of “true freedom”?

Oh, that's not my logic. I learned that from Fahran. Everyone must be loyal to the state, it provides for them.

That hardly sounds any different than having them recite the pledge of allegiance while they’re there anyways.

Don't know about your school experience, but when I look back on mine I feel like the times when the whole class was droning in unison, reciting the same things we'd recited the day before that and the day before that, were less education and more indoctrination. Not that we were pledging allegiance to America, or to any state, but still.

[Fahran]

Many of those who instinctively recoil from nationalism or patriotism vocalize globalist sentiments.

You’re not wrong, I don’t think it necessarily is derived from them being a globalist though..But you’re not wrong at all here.

True. We don't really teach Fascism's philosphical underpinnings or much regarding its history beyond the Holocaust. A lot of the fascists were simply thick-skulled thugs, but that doesn't mean that reading Schmitt, Gentile, and even non-totalitarians like Arendt can't give us a deeper understanding of Fascism as an ideology and a historical set of movements.

[True Refuge]

God's not real, though.

I don't know what to say to you, man... Convincing a person of this is like convincing a person that gravity exists. It should be common sense, but if it isn't common sense, there's no real way to go about the persuasion. How exactly does anything exist without an uncaused cause? All I can say is, you're wrong.

Common sense is totally useless for deciding anything of importance.

Radioactive decay is a truly random event, with no immediate cause for each atom’s moment of decay.

Why ask non-Christians to include “Under God”? Is the US only for Christianity?

[Ifreann]

Making children stand and pledge allegiance to the state every day, a true sign of freedom. You owe everything to the state, children. You would be nothing without it.

It's not mandatory. And they owe quite a bit to the political community and manifestations thereof, whether they acknowledge that or not.

Not mandatory, but if you don't do it you're disloyal. Ungrateful. Worthless to the community. Practically a traitor. No doubt some kind of globalist, whose interests are foreign interests, or worse, a bomb-throwing anarchist.

[Fahran]

Oh, that's not my logic. I learned that from Fahran. Everyone must be loyal to the state, it provides for them.

I didn't argue anyone HAD to be loyal to the state. I merely stated that it logically follows the one should be loyal to their political community or, in the event that they are disloyal, not settle on half-measures. Loyalty does not mean you do not criticize your political community or the organs that manifest its will. I'm quite insistent on making children attend school though, so yeah...

Don't know about your school experience, but when I look back on mine I feel like the times when the whole class was droning in unison, reciting the same things we'd recited the day before that and the day before that, were less education and more indoctrination. Not that we were pledging allegiance to America, or to any state, but still.

Do they have a pledge of allegiance in Ireland? I never knew.

[Gagium]

By your logic, would you be implying that we shouldn’t force children to go to school in the name of “true freedom”?

Oh, that's not my logic. I learned that from Fahran. Everyone must be loyal to the state, it provides for them.

That hardly sounds any different than having them recite the pledge of allegiance while they’re there anyways.

Don't know about your school experience, but when I look back on mine I feel like the times when the whole class was droning in unison, reciting the same things we'd recited the day before that and the day before that, were less education and more indoctrination. Not that we were pledging allegiance to America, or to any state, but still.

Ah. Borrowed logic ...

I don’t think I can say I had many similar experiences. The majority of the students in my morning classes don’t recite the pledge of allegiance, and those who do hardly do it in unison..I do think it’s disrespectful for them to sit during it, but as long as they’re at least standing for the pledge I’m fine. The pledge is hardly fascistic though.

[Ifreann]

Oh, that's not my logic. I learned that from Fahran. Everyone must be loyal to the state, it provides for them.

I didn't argue anyone HAD to be loyal to the state. I merely stated that it logically follows the one should be loyal to their political community or, in the event that they are disloyal, not settle on half-measures. Loyalty does not mean you do not criticize your political community or the organs that manifest its will. I'm quite insistent on making children attend school though, so yeah...

Don't know about your school experience, but when I look back on mine I feel like the times when the whole class was droning in unison, reciting the same things we'd recited the day before that and the day before that, were less education and more indoctrination. Not that we were pledging allegiance to America, or to any state, but still.

Do they have a pledge of allegiance in Ireland? I never knew.

If we do it must be obscure and little-used, because I've never heard tell of such a thing. Maybe there's something immigrants recite when they get Irish citizenship.

[Fahran]

Not mandatory, but if you don't do it you're disloyal. Ungrateful.

You are, in many cases, disloyal or ungrateful. Many of those who refuse to recite it would argue that they have no reason for loyalty or gratitude. I'm not so much disputing their arguments at the moment as describing them.

Worthless to the community.

Alienated from the community and perhaps not too concerned with its health on the whole, perhaps, but nobody is worthless.

Practically a traitor.

A less than stellar citizen but not necessarily a traitor.

No doubt some kind of globalist, whose interests are foreign interests, or worse, a bomb-throwing anarchist.

Or whose interests are principally ideological, directed towards a more narrow community, or in some other manner distinct from those of the political community to which they belong.

[San Montalbano]

It's not mandatory. And they owe quite a bit to the political community and manifestations thereof, whether they acknowledge that or not.

Not mandatory, but if you don't do it you're disloyal. Ungrateful. Worthless to the community. Practically a traitor. No doubt some kind of globalist, whose interests are foreign interests, or worse, a bomb-throwing anarchist.

Debatable on all those sure, people like Antifa come to mind as belonging to all of those in some form.

[Galloism]

By exercising the rights they fought for?

American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.

I mean, this post is a lot more disrespectful to the nation and its dead than sitting or kneeling or whatever during the pledge.

[San Montalbano]

American citizens should not have the right to disrespect the nation or it's dead. It should, in fact, be a punishable offense.

I mean, this post is a lot more disrespectful to the nation and its dead than sitting or kneeling or whatever during the pledge.

No its not, remember you can burn the flag and be patriotic

People died so we can have different opinions....right....

[Fahran]

If we do it must be obscure and little-used, because I've never heard tell of such a thing. Maybe there's something immigrants recite when they get Irish citizenship.

And do you believe immigrants should have to profess their loyalty to Ireland? Why or why not?