Is it disrespectful to sit during the Pledge?

[Autumn Wind]

Personally I think it is disrespectful, but only because the Pledge has nothing to do with the problems that people try and associate it with. There are many other ways to protest the problems within the US (Yes the US does have problems just like every country) but sitting or kneeling during the Pledge is going to do nothing but make more patriotic and even veterans angry. Also to those saying that the Pledge is cult like may I remind you that it isn't illegal to not participate and of the line "With liberty and justice for all". Not saying America is the most liberating and even fair justice wise but rather that as we live in this country we should strive to make it so. That is what the Pledge personally means to me, not that we are loyal to the government but rather the idea that everyone should have freedom and justice.

I seriously doubt any veterans will care, much less will be outraged, if random third graders goof off during the pledge of allegiance.

If they were once again required to preform the Bellamy salute during the pledge though, that would be some serious shit.

[Satuga]

Personally I think it is disrespectful, but only because the Pledge has nothing to do with the problems that people try and associate it with. There are many other ways to protest the problems within the US (Yes the US does have problems just like every country) but sitting or kneeling during the Pledge is going to do nothing but make more patriotic and even veterans angry. Also to those saying that the Pledge is cult like may I remind you that it isn't illegal to not participate and of the line "With liberty and justice for all". Not saying America is the most liberating and even fair justice wise but rather that as we live in this country we should strive to make it so. That is what the Pledge personally means to me, not that we are loyal to the government but rather the idea that everyone should have freedom and justice.

Reminder that kneeling was a veteran's idea.

Yes it was, and then Kaepernick used it as a protest. But even then it's not like it's just kneeling either, https://nypost.com/2017/09/24/lone-steeler-comes-out-of-locker-room-without-team-during-anthem-protest/.

[Vassenor]

Reminder that kneeling was a veteran's idea.

Yes it was, and then Kaepernick used it as a protest. But even then it's not like it's just kneeling either, https://nypost.com/2017/09/24/lone-steeler-comes-out-of-locker-room-without-team-during-anthem-protest/.

Because he talked it through with said veteran to make sure it was something that wasn't "disrespecting veterans".

[Satuga]

Personally I think it is disrespectful, but only because the Pledge has nothing to do with the problems that people try and associate it with. There are many other ways to protest the problems within the US (Yes the US does have problems just like every country) but sitting or kneeling during the Pledge is going to do nothing but make more patriotic and even veterans angry. Also to those saying that the Pledge is cult like may I remind you that it isn't illegal to not participate and of the line "With liberty and justice for all". Not saying America is the most liberating and even fair justice wise but rather that as we live in this country we should strive to make it so. That is what the Pledge personally means to me, not that we are loyal to the government but rather the idea that everyone should have freedom and justice.

I seriously doubt any veterans will care, much less will be outraged, if random third graders goof off during the pledge of allegiance.

If they were once again required to preform the Bellamy salute during the pledge though, that would be some serious shit.

Yes I agree that they probably wont care about some third graders, however some(Not all) do care about adults doing it on national television.

Also yeah I don't agree with the Bellamy salute at all.

[Satuga]

Yes it was, and then Kaepernick used it as a protest. But even then it's not like it's just kneeling either, https://nypost.com/2017/09/24/lone-steeler-comes-out-of-locker-room-without-team-during-anthem-protest/.

Because he talked it through with said veteran to make sure it was something that wasn't "disrespecting veterans".

Which is good he talked with a vet about it but not every vet is going to have the same opinion so while it might not be disrespectful to that vet, some other vets might still find it disrespectful.

[Vassenor]

Because he talked it through with said veteran to make sure it was something that wasn't "disrespecting veterans".

Which is good he talked with a vet about it but not every vet is going to have the same opinion so while it might not be disrespectful to that vet, some other vets might still find it disrespectful.

So we should all be good little conformists to avoid upsetting them?

[Satuga]

Which is good he talked with a vet about it but not every vet is going to have the same opinion so while it might not be disrespectful to that vet, some other vets might still find it disrespectful.

So we should all be good little conformists to avoid upsetting them?

I never said It shouldn't be allowed, it is their right to do this, just as it's my and others right to say it's disrespectful. It seems like you're trying to bait me into looking like a loony conformist.

[Rojava Free State]

It's ironic that most other countries with something akin to the pledge of allegiance are communist or fascist dictatorships

Yeah thats mostly due to the leaders being power fetishists.

I wouldn't say ours aren't power fetishists. In fact, playing on patriotism is a great way to take control and abolish the freedoms people hold dear.

I don't think that's why the pledge of allegiance was brought into existence of course. I'm just saying that it's kind of strange that an allegedly free country has this pledge and if you don't stand for it, people get angry

[Satuga]

Yeah thats mostly due to the leaders being power fetishists.

I wouldn't say ours aren't power fetishists. In fact, playing on patriotism is a great way to take control and abolish the freedoms people hold dear.

I don't think that's why the pledge of allegiance was brought into existence of course. I'm just saying that it's kind of strange that an allegedly free country has this pledge and if you don't stand for it, people get angry

I wouldn't doubt it in some way, the president doesn't have power like a dictator would so we don't really have to look at is as such.

I'd say abolishing the freedoms in the US by playing off of patriotism is much, much harder than you might think as the constitutions are cut dry and if anyone such as looked at it funny the more patriotic folk would probably get their guns ready I.E. the numerous attempts to regulate the 2nd amendment.

I can see what you're getting at but there's a distinct difference between people getting angry and it being illegal.

[Ors Might]

It’s not particularly disrespectful, I guess? I got bad feet so sometimes I had to sit down while reciting the pledge. It’s what I typically would do until they basically just stopped doing it in high school.

[Autumn Wind]

I seriously doubt any veterans will care, much less will be outraged, if random third graders goof off during the pledge of allegiance.

If they were once again required to preform the Bellamy salute during the pledge though, that would be some serious shit.

Yes I agree that they probably wont care about some third graders, however some(Not all) do care about adults doing it on national television.

When do adults recite the pledge of allegiance on national television?

Also yeah I don't agree with the Bellamy salute at all.

Then your just another pc snowflake sjw who objects to proud American traditions.

[The Archregimancy]

It's ironic that most other countries with something akin to the pledge of allegiance are communist or fascist dictatorships

I think it's more that most Western democracies don't advertise their equivalent, or rather only use it in specific legal settings (rather than, say, force schoolchildren to recite it weekly / daily).

The UK, for example, uses this for public officials and new citizens (the latter adding the wording in square brackets) in specific situations:

I, (Insert full name), do swear that [on becoming a British citizen] I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, her heirs and successors, according to law. So help me God.

In Canada, the analogous oath of allegiance and oath of citizenship have virtually identical legal roots, draw closely on their British counterparts, but have slightly different phrasing from each other, with the latter containing additional words. Using the English-language versions, with the additional language underlined:

Oath of Allegiance:

I, [name], do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors. So help me God.

Oath of Citizenship:

I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.

Australia has gradually split the oath / affirmation completely from the citizenship pledge.

The oath / affirmation is specifically outlined in the Australian constitution, and reads (depending on whether you want to insert God or not):

I, A.B., do swear that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to [monarch; Victoria in the constitution], Her heirs and successors according to law. SO HELP ME GOD!

or

I, A.B., do solemnly and sincerely affirm and declare that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to [monarch], Her heirs and successors according to law.

The current citizenship pledge reads:

From this time forward, [under God,]
I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people,
whose democratic beliefs I share,
whose rights and liberties I respect, and
whose laws I will uphold and obey.

But it was originally much closer in phrasing to the oath / affirmation.


In the United States, the Pledge of Allegiance is quite separate legally and historically from the naturalisation Oath of Allegiance, which reads:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

So, generally speaking, there's a broad tradition of this sort of thing in Anglophone countries and other democracies; the basic concept is not unique to the United States. What seems to have happened in the United States is that the concept of a national 'pledge of allegiance' gained currency in the years following the Civil War - when the concept of allegiance to the USA had very real practical meaning - reached more or less its current form in the period c.1890-c.1920, was officially recognised by the US federal government during the Second World War (when there were again practical reasons for encouraging national patriotism), and then became fetishised and made overtly religious in the 1950s in a deliberate attempt to contrast American values with communism.

Specific historical and cultural forces have led to the concept of a pledge of allegiance gaining much greater social prominence in the United States than similar oaths have in other western countries. Instead of being a narrowly constrained oath/pledge with specific legal meaning, it's become an all-encompassing shibboleth of patriotism.

That's the main difference.

[The Blaatschapen]

Reading all this I am so glad that I am not eligible to become a citizen of another monarchy. I never pledged allegiance to a royal and I am not about to

[Satuga]

When do adults recite the pledge of allegiance on national television?

Then your just another pc snowflake sjw who objects to proud American traditions.

Probably should've corrected it to national anthem (oops, oh well) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_anthem_performers_at_the_Super_Bowl
anyways the anthem and pledge are in the same boat.

Dude stop, like seriously.

[Satuga]

-snip-

^ this.

[The Archregimancy]

Reading all this I am so glad that I am not eligible to become a citizen of another monarchy. I never pledged allegiance to a royal and I am not about to

I used the UK, Canada, and Australia only because they're Anglophone countries where the relevant pledges/oaths would be easy for an American audience to understand, and where oaths had evolved from similar legal traditions. It made comparison easier. That they're constitutional monarchies was incidental.

That said, it looks like the Dutch equivalent (going by an official English translation I can't link to right now) has people swear allegiance to the constitutional order of the Kingdom of the Netherlands rather than to the monarch's person.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Yes I agree that they probably wont care about some third graders, however some(Not all) do care about adults doing it on national television.

When do adults recite the pledge of allegiance on national television?

Also yeah I don't agree with the Bellamy salute at all.

Then your just another pc snowflake sjw who objects to proud American traditions.

What is with you people and enslaving yourselves to worthless "proud American traditions"? The pledge is only about 125 years old. I'd hardly call that a tradition. But if you want to brown nose the US flag, be my guest.

[Autumn Wind]

When do adults recite the pledge of allegiance on national television?



Then your just another pc snowflake sjw who objects to proud American traditions.

What is with you people and enslaving yourselves to worthless "proud American traditions"? The pledge is only about 125 years old. I'd hardly call that a tradition. But if you want to brown nose the US flag, be my guest.

It’s a joke. Some people refuse to believe that there is anything odd with forcing children to profess loyalty to the state but if when you include the original Roman salute suddenly it looks bad.

It’s sort of like when people make a big deal about how better things were in the fifties, but then you bring up segregation as a positive, forcing them to backtrack.

[The Republic of Fore]

No, but it is kind of pointless. Ooh look you're so cool and edgy not participating. Same with kneeling during the anthem. Congratulations. You sat down while a song played. Truly, you're the new martin luther king.

[West Leas Oros 2]

What is with you people and enslaving yourselves to worthless "proud American traditions"? The pledge is only about 125 years old. I'd hardly call that a tradition. But if you want to brown nose the US flag, be my guest.

It’s a joke. Some people refuse to believe that there is anything odd with forcing children to profess loyalty to the state but if when you include the original Roman salute suddenly it’s bad.

It’s sort of like when people make a big deal about how better things were in the fifties, but then you bring up segregation as a positive, forcing them to backtrack.

Oh ok.

[West Leas Oros 2]

No, but it is kind of pointless. Ooh look you're so cool and edgy not participating. Same with kneeling during the anthem. Congratulations. You sat down while a song played. Truly, you're the new martin luther king.

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

[Satuga]

What is with you people and enslaving yourselves to worthless "proud American traditions"? The pledge is only about 125 years old. I'd hardly call that a tradition. But if you want to brown nose the US flag, be my guest.

It’s a joke. Some people refuse to believe that there is anything odd with forcing children to profess loyalty to the state but if when you include the original Roman salute suddenly it’s bad.

It’s sort of like when people make a big deal about how better things were in the fifties, but then you bring up segregation as a positive, forcing them to backtrack.

I've told you before it's not illegal to not say the pledge or anthem, also with the salute thing you could say the same exact thing about the swastika, in which through many religions it was known as a symbol of peace however the nazis changed it. Does that mean it's unacceptable when someone sees a deviation of the swastika?

[The Republic of Fore]

No, but it is kind of pointless. Ooh look you're so cool and edgy not participating. Same with kneeling during the anthem. Congratulations. You sat down while a song played. Truly, you're the new martin luther king.

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Then don't. But don't act like you're doing something special either.

[West Leas Oros 2]

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Then don't. But don't act like you're doing something special either.

I don't. But when I see everyone else reciting it with droning robotic voices, it's hard not to. I think most people do it because they are made to do it. I don't know very many people who take the pledge of their own volition.

[Satuga]

No, but it is kind of pointless. Ooh look you're so cool and edgy not participating. Same with kneeling during the anthem. Congratulations. You sat down while a song played. Truly, you're the new martin luther king.

It's not about being cool and edgy. I just don't want to profess my unconditional allegiance to a damn cloth.

Well first, you're not pledging to the flag itself but the ideals it represents. And second it's not like you're being legally bounded to the country through the pledge, the pledge itself has no legal ramifications for saying it.