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South Asian Discussion Thread

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Nouveau Yathrib
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South Asian Discussion Thread

Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:36 pm

It's come to my attention that the Indian subcontinent is given relatively little attention on NSG. Which is odd because I've seen many threads on other parts of Asia and their inhabitants/culture/language, but not India or South Asia.

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2019/10/ ... ilization/

Thought I'd start this thread with a blog post by Bangladeshi-American geneticist Razib Khan on the Indian-American experience. Much of his online content relates to South Asia, its people, culture, and history. I don't exactly agree with his political views (and don't even get me started on certain webcites his work has been hosted on), but his takes on Asian history and religion are generally on-point- if a bit pedantic. This blog post delves into the sociology of Indian-Americans, and to what extent their relative success is due to being "whitewashed" compared to the unique cultural traits of South Asians. I'm sharing this even though India =/= South Asia, because the South Asian community in the US is overwhelmingly Indian (rather than Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Sri Lankan, or Nepalese).

You could say that this attitude, which reduces non-Western peoples and societies as outcomes of Western history, is marginal. But the person who expressed the opinions is a graduate student in sociology, and this viewpoint does suffuse the assumptions of many educated Americans “in the know”, albeit less nakedly and brusquely expressed. Less enlightened Americans probably believe that Indian immigrants are just smart and well-educated (this is true), and that is the reason for their success (again, true). But those who are “in the know” “understand” that these sorts of reductive characteristics are outcomes of a particular historical process, and it is that historical process to which Indian American success redounds (“Well actually, British colonialism imparted bourgeois values to native allies in western India, and that’s why they succeed in the United States”).

Though I am not Indian American, I am obviously Indian American adjacent. Arriving in the United States just before elementary school, and growing up with parents raised abroad, I have a visceral understanding of intercultural dynamics which is probably not available to professional anthropologists. I am aware of elements of South Asian culture which are very different from American culture, and so am always curious about the new pattern of some Westerners to reducing South Asian culture as simply a postcolonial reaction to Western hegemony.


A big reason why Indian-Americans are relatively affluent and successful is how the immigration process selects for education and skills, which in India is fairly concentrated among certain caste communities that have higher status.

First, it is famously well known that Indian American migration to the United States has been highly selective, biased toward individuals with high levels of skill and education. Additionally, these people are not a representative cross-section of Indians themselves in regards to ethnicity and community. There are, for example, very few individuals of Dalit background in the United States. And, there is a preponderance of individuals of higher status communities. Using the framework above, one might say that communities that have internalized European mores, outlooks, and skills, have been advantaged and that this is why they have immigrated to the United States.


I agree with his observation that local-born/raised Indian Americans tend to be more whitewashed in terms of opinions, morals, and intellect- compared to other Asian Americans originating from countries/cultures that weren't colonized by the British.

In this globalized world roiled by economic change and characterized by migration, there is a temptation to fall into the trap of simplistic theorizing. We must avoid that temptation if we are to understand the true shape of a thing, rather than the fictions one could spin-out from our theories and preconceptions.

Going back to the starting point of his post: the strong economic performance and robust families of Indian Americans is not just a function of hegemonic Western values. These people are not simply persons Indian in blood and color, but white in tastes, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect, though there is something of that, especially by generation 1.5 and above. But the entrepreneurial aspect of some Guju communities, to give an example, illustrates that folkways derived from the South Asian context have been transmitted to the United States. The “joint-family” is quintessentially Indian, and though it is not common among Indian Americans, it likely casts a shadow on Indian American family life (additionally, divorce is very taboo for many Hindus). Most Indian Americans today are immigrants, raised abroad, and their orientation and mores are fundamentally distinct from the native-born and native-raised.


This last part isn't directly related to the South Asian diaspora or South Asian culture, but it relates to US politics and how that might affect the integration and self-identification of future generations of Indian Americans.

Of course, assimilation happens. But even that is contingent. The America that the children of Indian Americans are growing up in is highly polarized and post-Christian. This has some downstream consequences for how 21st-century immigrants and their children view themselves in the body politic.





So NSG, what are your thoughts on South Asia, its people, its history, and/or its culture?
Last edited by Nouveau Yathrib on Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sundiata » Sat Nov 02, 2019 5:19 pm

Most of my friends are from this region of the world.
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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Tue Nov 05, 2019 11:49 pm

Sundiata wrote:Most of my friends are from this region of the world.


Interesting, where do you live to have a mostly Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/etc. friend group?
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Postby Sundiata » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:10 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Most of my friends are from this region of the world.


Interesting, where do you live to have a mostly Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/etc. friend group?

The United States. :lol:
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Postby Arumdaum » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:14 pm

The only reason why there's discussion threads on other parts of Asia is because...

I made them all, ahaha. I made the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean discussion threads. :(
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Postby Sundiata » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:16 pm

Arumdaum wrote:The only reason why there's discussion threads on other parts of Asia is because...

I made them all, ahaha. I made the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean discussion threads. :(

I'm glad someone did. :clap:
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Thu Nov 07, 2019 1:29 am

Sundiata wrote:
Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Interesting, where do you live to have a mostly Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi/etc. friend group?

The United States. :lol:

Methinks he means a more specific location, like New Jersey perhaps?

On the op....well, I always think that South Asia has a very rich culture, from food to architecture to languages. Taj Mahal, Red Fort, Srinagar, and Shimla seem to be beautiful places and maybe one day I would like to visit them. Though the dancing-and-singing types of Bollywood are not really my taste (though they are entertaining nonetheless), Indian film industry especially produce many good movies, such as, in my opinion, 3 Idiots and Bajrangi Bhaijaan. I used to read a Desi work, the Internment, though despite the....settings I think it is as somehow enjoyable.

Their politics is....a bit complicated if I were to say. I hope that one day India and Pakistan will relax a bit, but with the problem still resides in Kashmir maybe it will take a very long time.

Also, I used to hear about Rabindranath Tagore, but I'm not really aware about his works?

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Sat Nov 16, 2019 1:49 pm

Arumdaum wrote:The only reason why there's discussion threads on other parts of Asia is because...

I made them all, ahaha. I made the Chinese, Japanese, and Korean discussion threads. :(


Lol I remember I triggered you in the Confucianism discussion thread when I suggested that the Korean version of Confucianism- with its relative emphasis on traditional gender roles- may be a causal factor on why Korean Americans are more exogamous than other Asian Americans (after adjusting for age and generation). Don't think you started that thread, unless it was through another alt I wasn't aware of.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:19 pm

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blo ... on-racism/


You know if you really think about it, the caste system in India is basically just a form of classism, with wealthier peoples on top and the poorer closer to the bottom. The British basically took advantage of a system that already subjugated the poor in order to further subjugate them

Some claim it's based on race while others say it's based on job occupation. In other words it may be racist or classist, but it's discriminatory regardless and has been exploited by the West
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sat Nov 16, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Hanafuridake » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:03 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:You know if you really think about it, the caste system in India is basically just a form of classism, with wealthier peoples on top and the poorer closer to the bottom.


Not really. There are rich Dalits and poor Brahmins.
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Nov 16, 2019 5:21 pm

Hanafuridake wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:You know if you really think about it, the caste system in India is basically just a form of classism, with wealthier peoples on top and the poorer closer to the bottom.


Not really. There are rich Dalits and poor Brahmins.

Like, Mayawati?

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:32 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/jugglebandhi/the-indian-caste-system-is-based-on-racism/


You know if you really think about it, the caste system in India is basically just a form of classism, with wealthier peoples on top and the poorer closer to the bottom. The British basically took advantage of a system that already subjugated the poor in order to further subjugate them

Some claim it's based on race while others say it's based on job occupation. In other words it may be racist or classist, but it's discriminatory regardless and has been exploited by the West


There’s an underlying racial element to it. Almost all South Asians are genetically some combination of three different ancestry groups- hunter gatherer, farmer, and steppe. The proportions vary in different parts of the subcontinent, but broadly speaking within every region (even Pakistan and Bangladesh) the highest castes have less hunter gatherer ancestry and the lowest castes have more. Consequently you get this cultural obsession over light skin and certain facial features (because they’re associated with the upper castes/Muslim conquerors who have more steppe/steppe-like ancestry).
Last edited by Nouveau Yathrib on Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

This account is the predecessor state of Jamilkhuze and Syfenq. This is how they're different, and this is why they exist.

We are currently in the year 2181. About Us | Factbooks | Past and Future History | OOC Info | Public Relations | iiWiki | Q&A

"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Nov 17, 2019 3:59 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/jugglebandhi/the-indian-caste-system-is-based-on-racism/


You know if you really think about it, the caste system in India is basically just a form of classism, with wealthier peoples on top and the poorer closer to the bottom. The British basically took advantage of a system that already subjugated the poor in order to further subjugate them

Some claim it's based on race while others say it's based on job occupation. In other words it may be racist or classist, but it's discriminatory regardless and has been exploited by the West


There’s an underlying racial element to it. Almost all South Asians are genetically some combination of three different ancestry groups- hunter gatherer, farmer, and steppe. The proportions vary in different parts of the subcontinent, but broadly speaking within every region (even Pakistan and Bangladesh) the highest castes have less hunter gatherer ancestry and the lowest castes have more. Consequently you get this cultural obsession over light skin and certain facial features (because they’re associated with the upper castes/Muslim conquerors who have more steppe/steppe-like ancestry).


Kinda guessed. The upper castes tend to be lighter skinned and more indo European in appearance
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:25 pm

India-China comparison article. I'm guessing it was written by a Indian national.

https://economictimes.com/markets/stock ... 089643.cms

Comparing these two giants is a popular thought experiment, but they have nothing in common other than populations of a billion plus. China is a one-party autocracy that mobilised its homogeneous Han and Mandarin-speaking majorities behind a decades-long campaign of radical reform. India is a diverse multi-party democracy that will always struggle to rally its hundreds of ethnic and linguistic minorities behind any single goal.

The world’s most populous nations are evolving along very different paths – China toward freemarket communism, India toward state-dependent democracy. The contrast can be quite striking.

India is more a continent than a country, its states more varied in language, culture and ethnicity than the nations of Europe. Its economy is best-managed one state at a time, by a democratic leader close to local conditions, not by an authoritarian regime at the Centre.

As recently as five years ago, the hope for China was that economic freedom would lead to political freedom, but that dream has been dashed by the tightening of the communist party rule under President Xi Jinping. The hope for India, which became a democracy when it was still very poor, was that political freedom would lead to economic freedom, but that dream has been undermined by a long line of statist prime ministers.

There is still reason to believe in India’s economic prospects, but hope won’t come from prime ministers in Delhi, it will come from dynamic chief ministers in state capitals. These figures often double as leaders of their own regional parties. Right now the conventional wisdom is that Modi and his party are likely to return to power but with fewer seats in the Parliament, which would leave him more dependent on regional leaders.

That would not be a bad outcome. India is better off accepting its exuberantly diverse and democratic nature, and giving its state leaders more authority to govern themselves, than trying to be the next China.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

This account is the predecessor state of Jamilkhuze and Syfenq. This is how they're different, and this is why they exist.

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Postby The Hindustani State » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
There’s an underlying racial element to it. Almost all South Asians are genetically some combination of three different ancestry groups- hunter gatherer, farmer, and steppe. The proportions vary in different parts of the subcontinent, but broadly speaking within every region (even Pakistan and Bangladesh) the highest castes have less hunter gatherer ancestry and the lowest castes have more. Consequently you get this cultural obsession over light skin and certain facial features (because they’re associated with the upper castes/Muslim conquerors who have more steppe/steppe-like ancestry).


Kinda guessed. The upper castes tend to be lighter skinned and more indo European in appearance

Not true, caste and skin color vary, you can have very dark dravidian Brahmins and light skinned Dalits
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:33 pm

Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
The Hindustani State wrote:It’s 26 percent


From English Wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi

L1 speakers: 322 million speakers of Hindi and various related languages reported their language as 'Hindi' (2011 census)[3]


So yeah, maybe 26% of Indian nationals speak Hindi as their mother tongue.

I'm not sure if bringing up languages are related to politics, so I decided to post here.
That part which is quoted by Nouveau Yathrib makes me wonder. Are Bengali and Urdu related to Hindi? I have smaller doubts when it comes to Urdu, but I thought Bengali has a large number of speakers in India?
How far related is Punjabi to Hindi than say, Marathi is?

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Postby Nouveau Yathrib » Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:05 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
Nouveau Yathrib wrote:
From English Wiki: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi



So yeah, maybe 26% of Indian nationals speak Hindi as their mother tongue.

I'm not sure if bringing up languages are related to politics, so I decided to post here.
That part which is quoted by Nouveau Yathrib makes me wonder. Are Bengali and Urdu related to Hindi? I have smaller doubts when it comes to Urdu, but I thought Bengali has a large number of speakers in India?
How far related is Punjabi to Hindi than say, Marathi is?


Hindi and Urdu are different registers of the same language, which is based on the local dialect of Delhi.It's kind of like how different national standards of Mandarin (Standard Chinese) are all based on the local dialect of Beijing.

To my understanding Bengali has dozens of millions of native speakers in the state of West Bengal, which is on the west side of Bangladesh.

All of the languages you listed in your post are part of the Indo-Aryan group of languages, which is the Indic (South Asia-specific) sub-branch of the Indo-Iranian languages, which is one of the primary branches of the Indo-European language family.
Image

Based on this phylogenetic tree, it looks like Punjabi and Standard Hindi are more closely related to each other than either is to Marathi.
Image
Last edited by Nouveau Yathrib on Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I still can't believe that Brazil lost to Germany 1:7. Copy and paste onto your sig if you were alive when this happened.

This account is the predecessor state of Jamilkhuze and Syfenq. This is how they're different, and this is why they exist.

We are currently in the year 2181. About Us | Factbooks | Past and Future History | OOC Info | Public Relations | iiWiki | Q&A

"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something.
And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do."

-Edward Everett Hale


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