UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

[Purgatio]

I have private healthcare, I went to private school, I have enough money to pay a driver, so don't need public transport.

Except for the trains that you use...

Again, its not hypocritical if your family is forced to pay exorbitantly-high taxes you don't believe in, to try and recoup some of the resources purloined from you by force by using public services.

[Fartsniffage]

Except for the trains that you use...

Again, its not hypocritical if your family is forced to pay exorbitantly-high taxes you don't believe in, to try and recoup some of the resources purloined from you by force by using public services.

Dunno if you noticed but the trains are run by private companies.

[Purgatio]

Wealth accumulation is wonderful, why would you try and steal the rightful gains of wealthy and successful families and take those fruits from their children just because others might have it not as good? This sounds like open ended class envy to me. Accumulate wealth instead of taking from others.

As if property and money are not constructs solely in existence because both are enforced by the State...

Why would we take that money? Because it will help us give other people good lives as well. The concept of 'earned' becomes meaningless when people can make money by literally sitting on their asses and owning stuff their parents owned before them, while people who would two jobs from 8 till 6 every day are forced into predatory loaning because their boss does not want to pay them a living wage.

Talk to me about earned when there is an actual resemblance between effort and gains.

But its not their private property, whatever lives those other people may have, it doesn't justify robbing and expropriating the possessions and properties of others and unilaterally abrogating their ability to have a stable and secure economic future that will endure for the future. And just because wealth is familial rather than individual, inherited rather than individually-earned, doesn't make it any less legitimate or worthy of respect in a society governed by the rule of law and seeks to limit the State's ability to abrogate or overturn its subjects autonomous private ordering

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Again, its not hypocritical if your family is forced to pay exorbitantly-high taxes you don't believe in, to try and recoup some of the resources purloined from you by force by using public services.

Dunno if you noticed but the trains are run by private companies.

Government subsidises the trains by 5 billion pounds per year.
https://fullfact.org/economy/how-much-d ... -railways/

[Purgatio]

Again, its not hypocritical if your family is forced to pay exorbitantly-high taxes you don't believe in, to try and recoup some of the resources purloined from you by force by using public services.

Dunno if you noticed but the trains are run by private companies.

Then your argument makes even less sense. How can it be hypocritical to use a private service and oppose excessive State taxation and spending? If the rates are subsidized then my argument still stands that this is a valid attempt to recoup some of your losses robbed from you through taxes. You can pick one, not both.

[Fartsniffage]

Dunno if you noticed but the trains are run by private companies.

Then your argument makes even less sense. How can it be hypocritical to use a private service and oppose excessive State taxation and spending? If the rates are subsidized then my argument still stands that this is a valid attempt to recoup some of your losses robbed from you through taxes. You can pick one, not both.

I made no argument other than that GVH does in fact use public transport. Very little public transport in the UK is government owned.

[Purgatio]

Then your argument makes even less sense. How can it be hypocritical to use a private service and oppose excessive State taxation and spending? If the rates are subsidized then my argument still stands that this is a valid attempt to recoup some of your losses robbed from you through taxes. You can pick one, not both.

I made no argument other than that GVH does in fact use public transport. Very little public transport in the UK is government owned.

Then at best you made a semantic argument. GVH's underlying point was that he doesn't burden public or governmental resources and shouldn't have to subsidize those who do.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Then your argument makes even less sense. How can it be hypocritical to use a private service and oppose excessive State taxation and spending? If the rates are subsidized then my argument still stands that this is a valid attempt to recoup some of your losses robbed from you through taxes. You can pick one, not both.

I made no argument other than that GVH does in fact use public transport. Very little public transport in the UK is government owned.

Yes...yes I guess if your argument is that I sometimes use trains, I guess you have me on that one. I have been on northern rail. Northern rail is shit. I have been on virgin, virgin is alright but has the disadvantage of a lack of existence now.

[Fartsniffage]

I made no argument other than that GVH does in fact use public transport. Very little public transport in the UK is government owned.

Then at best you made a semantic argument. GVH's underlying point was that he doesn't burden public or governmental resources and shouldn't have to subsidize those who do.

Not everything has to be deeply political. He said something that wasn't true and I pulled him on it. Relax.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Then at best you made a semantic argument. GVH's underlying point was that he doesn't burden public or governmental resources and shouldn't have to subsidize those who do.

Not everything has to be deeply political. He said something that wasn't true and I pulled him on it. Relax.

'I have enough money to pay a driver so don't need public transport' does not mean 'I don't use public transport.' The fact that public transport is more convenient for me at this moment does not mean I need it.

[Purgatio]

Then at best you made a semantic argument. GVH's underlying point was that he doesn't burden public or governmental resources and shouldn't have to subsidize those who do.

Not everything has to be deeply political. He said something that wasn't true and I pulled him on it. Relax.

Fair enough

[Purgatio]

Not everything has to be deeply political. He said something that wasn't true and I pulled him on it. Relax.

'I have enough money to pay a driver so don't need public transport' does not mean 'I don't use public transport.' The fact that public transport is more convenient for me at this moment does not mean I need it.

Now that's being semantic

[Greater vakolicci haven]

'I have enough money to pay a driver so don't need public transport' does not mean 'I don't use public transport.' The fact that public transport is more convenient for me at this moment does not mean I need it.

Now that's being semantic

'I have enough money to buy expensive craft beer, so I don't need stella artois.'

I'm drinking Stella at the moment, because my dad has just bought 24 crates of it.
I don't need it, because I have the crates of the expensive stuff I've bought.

[Thermodolia]

Due to technical difficulties my PR election simulator results will be released sometime Sunday.

But here’s a sample of NI for Huskar

DUP: 6
SF: 4
SDLP: 3
A: 3
UUP: 2

Unionists: 8
Nationalists: 7
Alliance: 3

[Pasong Tirad]

Due to technical difficulties my PR election simulator results will be released sometime Sunday.

But here’s a sample of NI for Huskar

DUP: 6
SF: 4
SDLP: 3
A: 3
UUP: 2

Unionists: 8
Nationalists: 7
Alliance: 3

Oh so you're crunching the numbers to see the results if FPTP wasn't an absolute dumpster fire of an electoral method? Very cool! I can't wait to see it.

[Dumb Ideologies]

My initial wave of hysteria and fury has calmed a little.

From the arch Brexit-blockers who backed Corbs into a corner and fed the narrative of untrustworthy two-faced parliamentarians who only ever pretended to accept the result, to the people who voted Tory purely to see the referendum result carried out, there's little point really being angry at them.

Yes, in my opinion they've been chronically short sighted in not prioritising public service funding, the NHS, the housing crisis etc. as much as I wish they had. But in coming to their decision they've reacted according to the information and narratives they've been spun, and very few of them will have been actively malicious in their choice.

We're trapped in a stupid game, and it takes all the planets and stars to be aligned for it to not give out a stupid prize at the end. The stars were not aligned. The country is not full of worse people than it was at the start of the week.

[Ostroeuropa]

Glad to see more of an emphasis on "Ditch the progressives" taking hold in some outlets.

As has rightly been noted, if "We should just do Blairism again" was the answer then why didn't people back Chuka, the Libs, or any of the other parties representing that position instead of backing the Tories?

It's honestly staggering to watch some in Labour continuously just not get it.

Imagine the BNP tinkering with their economic policy every election, flip flopping between left and right so the only consistent identity their party has in the mind of the public is being a bunch of massive fucking racists.

You can picture the scene;

"And that's my presentation for our economic platform." - BNP activist
"That was pretty darn convincing, certainly better than the alternative on offer, but..." - Voter
"Oh wait, is that a picture of a nigger on your desk? Well, that's a bit unseemly." - BNP Activist
"Oh. Yeah. Well, thanks, please get out." - Voter
"I think we're almost through to them, we just need to work a bit better on marketing our economic message and triangulate properly, maybe next time we should move a bit more to the right on economics and try that instead." - BNP Activist.

Nobody cares. It's not working and it's never going to work.
I think more in the party are beginning to realize that now.

Flipping back to Blairism just means we'll be in the same place in 5 years again except it will even more thoroughly cement the perception of the Labour party as having no real principles except ones the overwhelming majority of people hate.

Ditch the progressives. They're the problem.

40% of Tory voters don't even think billionaires should exist *At all*, and that was before the working class blue wave this election produced. (The more working class in a constituency, the stronger the swing to the Tories this election.). It's not the economy.

[Purgatio]

My initial wave of hysteria and fury has calmed a little.

From the arch Brexit-blockers who backed Corbs into a corner and fed the narrative of untrustworthy two-faced parliamentarians who only ever pretended to accept the result, to the people who voted Tory purely to see the referendum result carried out, there's little point really being angry at them.

Yes, in my opinion they've been chronically short sighted in not prioritising public service funding, the NHS, the housing crisis etc. as much as I wish they had. But in coming to theor decision they've reacted according to the information and narratives they've been spun, and very few of them will have been actively malicious in their choice.

We're trapped in a stupid game, and it takes all the planets and stars to be aligned for it to not give out a stupid prize at the end. The stars were not aligned. The country is not full of worse people than it was at the start of the week.

And in the end that's really what the election came down to. Johnson told the public he needed a stable Parliamentary majority to get Brexit done without anymore hassle or legislative obstruction, those in the British electorate who want Brexit secured gave him that majority. Well, that and Corbyn's utter unelectability.

[Purgatio]

Glad to see more of an emphasis on "Ditch the progressives" taking hold in some outlets.

As has rightly been noted, if "We should just do Blairism again" was the answer then why didn't people back Chuka, the Libs, or any of the other parties representing that position instead of backing the Tories?

It's honestly staggering to watch some in Labour continuously just not get it.

Imagine the BNP tinkering with their economic policy every election, flip flopping between left and right so the only consistent identity their party has in the mind of the public is being a bunch of massive fucking racists.

You can picture the scene;

"And that's my presentation for our economic platform." - BNP activist
"That was pretty darn convincing, certainly better than the alternative on offer, but..." - Voter
"Oh wait, is that a picture of a nigger on your desk? Well, that's a bit unseemly." - BNP Activist
"Oh. Yeah. Well, thanks, please get out." - Voter
"I think we're almost through to them, we just need to work a bit better on marketing our economic message and triangulate properly, maybe next time we should move a bit more to the right on economics and try that instead." - BNP Activist.

Nobody cares. It's not working and it's never going to work.
I think more in the party are beginning to realize that now.

Flipping back to Blairism just means we'll be in the same place in 5 years again except it will even more thoroughly cement the perception of the Labour party as having no real principles except ones the overwhelming majority of people hate.

Ditch the progressives. They're the problem.

40% of Tory voters don't even think billionaires should exist *At all*. It's not the economy.

Sounds like 40% of Tory voters are just filled with class envy, how sad.

[Thermodolia]

Due to technical difficulties my PR election simulator results will be released sometime Sunday.

But here’s a sample of NI for Huskar

DUP: 6
SF: 4
SDLP: 3
A: 3
UUP: 2

Unionists: 8
Nationalists: 7
Alliance: 3

Oh so you're crunching the numbers to see the results if FPTP wasn't an absolute dumpster fire of an electoral method? Very cool! I can't wait to see it.

Yup. I’m crunching the numbers to see what it would look like if the election was run under Party list PR system

[Celritannia]

Don't forget that you also want to deport all the Jews.

Yes, most of them would be sent on their way.

You are definitely touching on Nazi Levels here.

[Ostroeuropa]

Glad to see more of an emphasis on "Ditch the progressives" taking hold in some outlets.

As has rightly been noted, if "We should just do Blairism again" was the answer then why didn't people back Chuka, the Libs, or any of the other parties representing that position instead of backing the Tories?

It's honestly staggering to watch some in Labour continuously just not get it.

Imagine the BNP tinkering with their economic policy every election, flip flopping between left and right so the only consistent identity their party has in the mind of the public is being a bunch of massive fucking racists.

You can picture the scene;

"And that's my presentation for our economic platform." - BNP activist
"That was pretty darn convincing, certainly better than the alternative on offer, but..." - Voter
"Oh wait, is that a picture of a nigger on your desk? Well, that's a bit unseemly." - BNP Activist
"Oh. Yeah. Well, thanks, please get out." - Voter
"I think we're almost through to them, we just need to work a bit better on marketing our economic message and triangulate properly, maybe next time we should move a bit more to the right on economics and try that instead." - BNP Activist.

Nobody cares. It's not working and it's never going to work.
I think more in the party are beginning to realize that now.

Flipping back to Blairism just means we'll be in the same place in 5 years again except it will even more thoroughly cement the perception of the Labour party as having no real principles except ones the overwhelming majority of people hate.

Ditch the progressives. They're the problem.

40% of Tory voters don't even think billionaires should exist *At all*. It's not the economy.

Sounds like 40% of Tory voters are just filled with class envy, how sad.

If those voters went to Labour the conservatives would be at 25% and Labour would be on 45% of the vote. And those are just the ones pissed off enough with Labour to vote Tory, let alone the ones who just don't turn out to vote.

Instead Labour officials are saying;
1. We need a woman as a leader because its time for feminism
and
2. Let's try Blairism

The absolute worst response to the situation they could adopt. Having alienated the voters on multiculturalism and nationalism and immigration the response is to double down on another different axis of fringe extremist ideology and drive away even more support.

[Celritannia]

Because they're not White Christians. It's its own justification or something weird like that.

*British Christians

And yet nearly half of the UK (like me) are not religious.

[Purgatio]

Sounds like 40% of Tory voters are just filled with class envy, how sad.

If those voters went to Labour the conservatives would be at 25% and Labour would be on 45% of the vote. And those are just the ones pissed off enough with Labour to vote Tory, let alone the ones who just don't turn out to vote.

I'm not criticizing your analysis, I think your analysis is spot-on, the people who voted Tory this election weren't doing so because they support Tory economic policies but because they support the Tory policies on other issues like Brexit and immigration, I'm just criticizing the mentality of the 40% of Tory voters who don't think billionaires should exist. That's just blind and irrational class envy, its pretty sad.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

My initial wave of hysteria and fury has calmed a little.

From the arch Brexit-blockers who backed Corbs into a corner and fed the narrative of untrustworthy two-faced parliamentarians who only ever pretended to accept the result, to the people who voted Tory purely to see the referendum result carried out, there's little point really being angry at them.

Yes, in my opinion they've been chronically short sighted in not prioritising public service funding, the NHS, the housing crisis etc. as much as I wish they had. But in coming to theor decision they've reacted according to the information and narratives they've been spun, and very few of them will have been actively malicious in their choice.

We're trapped in a stupid game, and it takes all the planets and stars to be aligned for it to not give out a stupid prize at the end. The stars were not aligned. The country is not full of worse people than it was at the start of the week.

And in the end that's really what the election came down to. Johnson told the public he needed a stable Parliamentary majority to get Brexit done without anymore hassle or legislative obstruction, those in the British electorate who want Brexit secured gave him that majority. Well, that and Corbyn's utter unelectability.

Brexit came third in some poll I heard about on newsnight today. 40 % of labour voters who switched did so because of Corbyn, 20 % because of the fantasy land manifesto, 19 because of Brexit.