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UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who do you support to become the next Labour Party Leader?

Clive Lewis (DROPPED OUT)
2
2%
Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit Secretary, MP for Holborn and St Pancras)
38
37%
Lisa Nandy (MP for Wigan)
11
11%
Jess Phillips (DROPPED OUT)
16
16%
Emily Thornberry (Shadow First Secretary of State, MP for Islington South and Finsbury)
7
7%
Yvette Cooper (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Dan Jarvis (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Ian Lavery (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Rebecca Long Bailey (Shadow Business Secretary, MP for Salford and Eccles)
16
16%
Other (Please state who in a reply)
9
9%
 
Total votes : 102

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:12 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:Ok but hear me out... UK can have a little super mega hyper bridge, as a treat, but only if it's, like, a railway bridge for after the trains get nationalized.

It will be a road and rail bridge, according to proposals.

No road. Only rail.

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Last edited by Liriena on Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:09 pm

Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.


Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.

Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.

The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.

I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:13 pm

Chan Island wrote:
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.


Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.

Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.

The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.

I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.


If it ever happens it will be a train tunnel. Simply that.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Chan Island wrote:The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

Actually the biggest obstacle to the Celtic Crossing would be Beaufort's Dyke, which is a trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is 30 miles long, 2 miles wide and 200–300m deep; it cuts right across the point of the proposed crossing.
Last edited by Karl Marx on Wed Mar 14, 1883 15:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Chan Island
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:29 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Chan Island wrote:The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

Actually the biggest obstacle to the Celtic Crossing would be Beaufort's Dyke, which is a trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is 30 miles long, 2 miles wide and 200–300m deep; it cuts right across the point of the proposed crossing.


Which would be triple the current world record for the deepest bridge. Damn.

You'd just span over such a trench then. 2 miles, while huge, isn't impossible for spanning.

Having each of those pillars be under about 160 meters of ocean water would however be a considerable obstacle.

Fartsniffage wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.

Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.

The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.

I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.


If it ever happens it will be a train tunnel. Simply that.


Tunnels, while technically more viable, would even more so be subject to the issue of time. And expense. The Channel tunnel had work start in the 1970s and wasn't finished until 1994 (that said, politics delayed that one for, if memory serves, about 5 years).
Last edited by Chan Island on Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Novus America
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Posts: 29390
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:46 pm

Chan Island wrote:
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.


Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.

Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.

The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.

I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.


The Eiksund Tunnel in Norway is 287 meters deep. The Seikan Tunnel 240 meters deep.
Now I cannot find a good list of bridges by water depth but some oil platforms are built in water 300 meters deep. Nordhordland Bridge crosses water 5,000 meters deep.

So deeper water has been dealt with.

But sure it would be a Keynesian mega project and engineering challenge, but that is much of what makes it interesting. And sure it might take a decade or more to construct but that is fine, creating jobs and demand for a decade or more.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Greed and Death
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Posts: 49545
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:54 pm

Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.

You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.
"Trying to solve the healthcare problem by mandating people buy insurance is like trying to solve the homeless problem by mandating people buy a house."(paraphrase from debate with Hilary Clinton)
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Novus America
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Posts: 29390
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:58 pm

Greed and Death wrote:
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.

You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.


I cannot find anything saying that but there is this:
https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.c ... -projects/
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 34473
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:00 pm

Novus America wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.


I cannot find anything saying that but there is this:
https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.c ... -projects/


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The New California Republic
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Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:20 pm

Chan Island wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Actually the biggest obstacle to the Celtic Crossing would be Beaufort's Dyke, which is a trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is 30 miles long, 2 miles wide and 200–300m deep; it cuts right across the point of the proposed crossing.


Which would be triple the current world record for the deepest bridge. Damn.

You'd just span over such a trench then. 2 miles, while huge, isn't impossible for spanning.

Having each of those pillars be under about 160 meters of ocean water would however be a considerable obstacle.

It's issues like this that lead me to strongly suspect that such a project would end up horrifically overbudget and late.
Last edited by Karl Marx on Wed Mar 14, 1883 15:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:42 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Which would be triple the current world record for the deepest bridge. Damn.

You'd just span over such a trench then. 2 miles, while huge, isn't impossible for spanning.

Having each of those pillars be under about 160 meters of ocean water would however be a considerable obstacle.

It's issues like this that lead me to strongly suspect that such a project would end up horrifically overbudget and late.


Oh it obviously would. But that is to be expected abs does not mean the project cannot be tried.
Basically every infrastructure project does.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Greed and Death
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:50 pm

Novus America wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.


I cannot find anything saying that but there is this:
https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.c ... -projects/


Does your source even mention the world trade organization ?
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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:09 pm

How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 pm

Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?

shhhh he is a Putin spy.
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The Free Joy State
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Founded: Jan 05, 2014
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Postby The Free Joy State » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:20 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Some 30ish miles, I think. Big long boi. And one does wonder how it would impact ships leaving Belfast.

It'll have to be tall to let ships pass under it. And fairly wide for structural purposes. Swole bridge boi.

It's a Boris-planned bridge. I think it's fairly safe to say it'll be only ten-feet tall and will barely reach three-quarters of the way across the sea.

Still... what a boon for bridge repair and stunt drivers.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:I wonder if I could get crowd funded to have some bongs for Brexit?

I'm sure the government is planning mass soma-distribution for the populace on that date.

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Philjia wrote:Thought:
If the House of Lords is reformed into an elected body it should be by proportional representation while the House of Commons remains locally elected.

The House of Commons should be proportional, while the House of Lords should become a local representation. The House of Commons enjoys a kind of seniority over the House of Lords, so it would be preferable if the House of Commons were elected by representation.

I agree that electing the House of Commons by PR would be preferable.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 am

Perhaps we could have an HS3 to connect Leeds or Manchester with Portpatrick.
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Salandriagado
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Posts: 19955
Founded: Apr 03, 2008
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:19 am

Novus America wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.

Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.

The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.

In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.

I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.


The Eiksund Tunnel in Norway is 287 meters deep. The Seikan Tunnel 240 meters deep.
Now I cannot find a good list of bridges by water depth but some oil platforms are built in water 300 meters deep. Nordhordland Bridge crosses water 5,000 meters deep.

So deeper water has been dealt with.

But sure it would be a Keynesian mega project and engineering challenge, but that is much of what makes it interesting. And sure it might take a decade or more to construct but that is fine, creating jobs and demand for a decade or more.


Tunnels are not bridges. Oil rigs are not bridges. Nordhundlund bridge is a fucking pontoon bridge.
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Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 am

Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?


The same way he ends up with the name de Pfeffel
Cosara wrote:
Anachronous Rex wrote:Good thing most a majority of people aren't so small-minded, and frightened of other's sexuality.

Over 40% (including me), are, so I fixed the post for accuracy.

Vilatania wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
By choosing 1, you no longer have 0 probability of choosing 1. End of subject.

(read up the quote stack)

Deal. £3000 do?[/quote]

Of course.[/quote]

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SD_Film Artists
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Postby SD_Film Artists » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:27 am

Greed and Death wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?

shhhh he is a Putin spy.


But Russia Today told me that he's not a spy. :unsure:
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:30 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?


The same way he ends up with the name de Pfeffel


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Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:56 am

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... says-study

What we all knew already.

Just look at Queen Elizabeth II ;)
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:05 am

Salandriagado wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The Eiksund Tunnel in Norway is 287 meters deep. The Seikan Tunnel 240 meters deep.
Now I cannot find a good list of bridges by water depth but some oil platforms are built in water 300 meters deep. Nordhordland Bridge crosses water 5,000 meters deep.

So deeper water has been dealt with.

But sure it would be a Keynesian mega project and engineering challenge, but that is much of what makes it interesting. And sure it might take a decade or more to construct but that is fine, creating jobs and demand for a decade or more.


Tunnels are not bridges. Oil rigs are not bridges. Nordhundlund bridge is a fucking pontoon bridge.


Tunnels are still a crossing. It could be a tunnel. It could use pontoons in sections.
And pilings (yes not specifically for bridges but still pilings) have been built in 300 meter deep water. A crossing is certainly very possible to do. It would not be easy, but can obviously be done.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Hirota
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:31 am

Credit where Credit is due, Jess dealt with the anti-semitic snake in her ranks.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/jess ... p-1.495280

Now it's in the hands of the party to decide if they want to continue to be seen to be institutionally antisemitic or not.
When a wise man points at the moon the imbecile examines the finger

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Known to trigger Grammar Nazis, Spelling Nazis, Actual Nazis, the emotionally stunted, pedants and koi carp.
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Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

User avatar
Servilis
Envoy
 
Posts: 254
Founded: May 07, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Servilis » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:36 am

Twitter had a whole meltdown about Boris J. playing around with the English language while talking about something about Big Ben, dunno', my area of politics is that of what the Right Wing calls "Identity Politics", I don't usually go around debating what to do about a giant clock that won't be restored until next year.
Just wanted to put my useless take on it, k bai.
she/her - they know me as yeoss

idk what to put here

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 136110
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:28 am

Liriena wrote:
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian affect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.

And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.

And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.

Ok but hear me out... UK can have a little super mega hyper bridge, as a treat, but only if it's, like, a railway bridge for after the trains get nationalized.

Nationalise the entire field of engineering. Wacky gadgetbahns will criss-cross Britain.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
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