No road. Only rail.
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by Liriena » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:12 pm
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by Chan Island » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:09 pm
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Fartsniffage » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:13 pm
Chan Island wrote:Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.
Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.
The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.
I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.
by The New California Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:20 pm
Chan Island wrote:The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
by Chan Island » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:29 pm
The New California Republic wrote:Chan Island wrote:The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
Actually the biggest obstacle to the Celtic Crossing would be Beaufort's Dyke, which is a trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is 30 miles long, 2 miles wide and 200–300m deep; it cuts right across the point of the proposed crossing.
Fartsniffage wrote:Chan Island wrote:
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.
Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.
The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.
I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.
If it ever happens it will be a train tunnel. Simply that.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.
by Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:46 pm
Chan Island wrote:Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.
Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.
The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.
I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.
by Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:54 pm
Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
by Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 5:58 pm
Greed and Death wrote:Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian effect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.
by Fartsniffage » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:00 pm
Novus America wrote:Greed and Death wrote:You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.
I cannot find anything saying that but there is this:
https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.c ... -projects/
by The New California Republic » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:20 pm
Chan Island wrote:The New California Republic wrote:Actually the biggest obstacle to the Celtic Crossing would be Beaufort's Dyke, which is a trench between Northern Ireland and Scotland. It is 30 miles long, 2 miles wide and 200–300m deep; it cuts right across the point of the proposed crossing.
Which would be triple the current world record for the deepest bridge. Damn.
You'd just span over such a trench then. 2 miles, while huge, isn't impossible for spanning.
Having each of those pillars be under about 160 meters of ocean water would however be a considerable obstacle.
by Novus America » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:42 pm
The New California Republic wrote:Chan Island wrote:
Which would be triple the current world record for the deepest bridge. Damn.
You'd just span over such a trench then. 2 miles, while huge, isn't impossible for spanning.
Having each of those pillars be under about 160 meters of ocean water would however be a considerable obstacle.
It's issues like this that lead me to strongly suspect that such a project would end up horrifically overbudget and late.
by Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:50 pm
Novus America wrote:Greed and Death wrote:You can't as Obama found out in 2009 it violates WTO rules for government projects to only use local steel.
I cannot find anything saying that but there is this:
https://www.insidegovernmentcontracts.c ... -projects/
by Bear Stearns » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:09 pm
by Greed and Death » Tue Jan 14, 2020 8:16 pm
Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?
by The Free Joy State » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:20 pm
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:I wonder if I could get crowd funded to have some bongs for Brexit?
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Philjia wrote:Thought:
If the House of Lords is reformed into an elected body it should be by proportional representation while the House of Commons remains locally elected.
The House of Commons should be proportional, while the House of Lords should become a local representation. The House of Commons enjoys a kind of seniority over the House of Lords, so it would be preferable if the House of Commons were elected by representation.
by An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:06 am
by Salandriagado » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:19 am
Novus America wrote:Chan Island wrote:
Apart from all of the other logistical issues that others have listed, it's flatly untrue that deeper bridges have been built.
Currently the deepest one under water is the 25th of April bridge in Lisbon, at 70 meters below the water. This was a giant construction project which lasted over a decade, and serious planning for close to 30 years before that... over a span of about 2.2 kilometres.
The Irish sea between the 2 proposed point is, at the shallowest, 120 meters... but that place is a bit further south. The actual point everyone is proposing is actually about 160. Yeah, so in order for this bridge to be built, it would have to be spanning over a depth double the current world record.
In a big ocean shipping lane to boot, so you couldn't get away with it being down low which is typical of longer bridges. And remember, this is under water. With currents, and wildlife, and boats, and waves. That stuff messes with bridges very much, to say the least.
I'm sure it's possible, that said. And if it was part of some big Keynesian project, then I'd 100% support it. But don't underestimate the challenge. It would be giant, serious national investment that would take over a decade to build... at the very least.
The Eiksund Tunnel in Norway is 287 meters deep. The Seikan Tunnel 240 meters deep.
Now I cannot find a good list of bridges by water depth but some oil platforms are built in water 300 meters deep. Nordhordland Bridge crosses water 5,000 meters deep.
So deeper water has been dealt with.
But sure it would be a Keynesian mega project and engineering challenge, but that is much of what makes it interesting. And sure it might take a decade or more to construct but that is fine, creating jobs and demand for a decade or more.
by Salandriagado » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 am
Bear Stearns wrote:How does an Englishman end up with the name Boris?
by SD_Film Artists » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:27 am
by Dumb Ideologies » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:30 am
by The Blaatschapen » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:56 am
by Novus America » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:05 am
Salandriagado wrote:Novus America wrote:
The Eiksund Tunnel in Norway is 287 meters deep. The Seikan Tunnel 240 meters deep.
Now I cannot find a good list of bridges by water depth but some oil platforms are built in water 300 meters deep. Nordhordland Bridge crosses water 5,000 meters deep.
So deeper water has been dealt with.
But sure it would be a Keynesian mega project and engineering challenge, but that is much of what makes it interesting. And sure it might take a decade or more to construct but that is fine, creating jobs and demand for a decade or more.
Tunnels are not bridges. Oil rigs are not bridges. Nordhundlund bridge is a fucking pontoon bridge.
by Hirota » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:31 am
by Servilis » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:36 am
by Ifreann » Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:28 am
Liriena wrote:Novus America wrote:I actually do not hate the bridge idea. Longer bridges over deeper water have been built.
And actually infrastructure mega projects have a Keynesian affect, stimulating demand and creating jobs.
And if you mandate the steel, concrete and aluminum used be made in the UK it could help support those industries.
And it would reduce trade costs between NI and the UK.
Ok but hear me out... UK can have a little super mega hyper bridge, as a treat, but only if it's, like, a railway bridge for after the trains get nationalized.
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