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UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who do you support to become the next Labour Party Leader?

Clive Lewis (DROPPED OUT)
2
2%
Keir Starmer (Shadow Brexit Secretary, MP for Holborn and St Pancras)
48
41%
Lisa Nandy (MP for Wigan)
11
9%
Jess Phillips (DROPPED OUT)
17
15%
Emily Thornberry (Shadow First Secretary of State, MP for Islington South and Finsbury)
7
6%
Yvette Cooper (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Dan Jarvis (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Ian Lavery (DROPPED OUT)
1
1%
Rebecca Long Bailey (Shadow Business Secretary, MP for Salford and Eccles)
17
15%
Other (Please state who in a reply)
11
9%
 
Total votes : 116

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:08 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
What is the going monthly rental rate on a aircraft carrier these days? Last I checked Hertz does not keep them in stock :p


The Gerald R Ford strike group apparently cost $6.5 million per day to run. So charge $13 million per day to make a profit and offer discounts on weekends and if the target countries you don't like.

And you could really gouge them if the return it without a full gas bunker.


I mean this actually has amusing potential I give you that. An alt history where real mercenaries including mercenaries fleets are still in. But what about insurance?

I mean they are going to need a hefty policy to cover full loss.

But yeah if they do not return it with a full Uranium load we are going to gouge them on the uranium let me tell you! :p

Although I think this has run quite far from the topic.

From UK conscription policy to wherever we are now.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:10 pm

BS dear...
Shouldn't the fact that you are the only guy entertaining the idea of marching on Moscow tell you something?

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:10 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The Gerald R Ford strike group apparently cost $6.5 million per day to run. So charge $13 million per day to make a profit and offer discounts on weekends and if the target countries you don't like.

And you could really gouge them if the return it without a full gas bunker.


I mean this actually has amusing potential I give you that. An alt history where real mercenaries including mercenaries fleets are still in. But what about insurance?

I mean they are going to need a hefty policy to cover full loss.

But yeah if they do not return it with a full Uranium load we are going to gouge them on the uranium let me tell you! :p

Although I think this has run quite far from the topic.

From UK conscription policy to wherever we are now.

I think an alternate history where mercenary fleets are still in play can be found

here

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Bear Stearns
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Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:12 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:BS dear...
Shouldn't the fact that you are the only guy entertaining the idea of marching on Moscow tell you something?


No...?

A NATO-Russia war would be incredibly one-sided and Russia would have its ass kicked. Its nukes are the equalizer, and that's why it would use them and this war would go nuclear.
Last edited by Bear Stearns on Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:13 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The Gerald R Ford strike group apparently cost $6.5 million per day to run. So charge $13 million per day to make a profit and offer discounts on weekends and if the target countries you don't like.

And you could really gouge them if the return it without a full gas bunker.


I mean this actually has amusing potential I give you that. An alt history where real mercenaries including mercenaries fleets are still in. But what about insurance?

I mean they are going to need a hefty policy to cover full loss.

But yeah if they do not return it with a full Uranium load we are going to gouge them on the uranium let me tell you! :p

Although I think this has run quite far from the topic.

From UK conscription policy to wherever we are now.


I mean it has about as much relevance given that the British government isn't going to implement a conscription infrastructure until we're on the eve of all out war. :P
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:16 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
I mean this actually has amusing potential I give you that. An alt history where real mercenaries including mercenaries fleets are still in. But what about insurance?

I mean they are going to need a hefty policy to cover full loss.

But yeah if they do not return it with a full Uranium load we are going to gouge them on the uranium let me tell you! :p

Although I think this has run quite far from the topic.

From UK conscription policy to wherever we are now.


I mean it has about as much relevance given that the British government isn't going to implement a conscription infrastructure until we're on the eve of all out war. :P


Fair enough. As we know the British never plan how to deal with a major foreign policy issue until after they have pulled the trigger :lol:
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 34890
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:17 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Then your insurance broker is going to jump out of a high window.

Your policy covers you for up to $30 billion in damages to the pacific fleet.


There is actually a company that does that type of insurance. Huh.

https://www.ukwarrisks.com/

A-rated specialist war risks insurance to protect international flag ships of any type or size against malicious loss or damage by a third party, anywhere in the world.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:18 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Your policy covers you for up to $30 billion in damages to the pacific fleet.


There is actually a company that does that type of insurance. Huh.

https://www.ukwarrisks.com/

A-rated specialist war risks insurance to protect international flag ships of any type or size against malicious loss or damage by a third party, anywhere in the world.



What the actual fuck

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Ther Sul Citzpacia
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ther Sul Citzpacia » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:35 pm

As the news just told me date there will be a new labour leader and you asked for people who voted other to state why- i will

They will be hoping they pull a rabbit out of the hat- so, the easter bunny bearing a lovely basket of tasty Easter eggs which aren't so sweet that they make the electorate sick

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The Blaatschapen
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Posts: 54869
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 1:47 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The Gerald R Ford strike group apparently cost $6.5 million per day to run. So charge $13 million per day to make a profit and offer discounts on weekends and if the target countries you don't like.

And you could really gouge them if the return it without a full gas bunker.


I mean this actually has amusing potential I give you that. An alt history where real mercenaries including mercenaries fleets are still in. But what about insurance?

I mean they are going to need a hefty policy to cover full loss.

But yeah if they do not return it with a full Uranium load we are going to gouge them on the uranium let me tell you! :p

Although I think this has run quite far from the topic.

From UK conscription policy to wherever we are now.


Glad I skipped ten pages then :)
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Fartsniffage
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:02 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
I mean it has about as much relevance given that the British government isn't going to implement a conscription infrastructure until we're on the eve of all out war. :P


Fair enough. As we know the British never plan how to deal with a major foreign policy issue until after they have pulled the trigger :lol:


Where would be the fun in that?
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:05 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Fair enough. As we know the British never plan how to deal with a major foreign policy issue until after they have pulled the trigger :lol:


Where would be the fun in that?


Indeed, we would have missed the mad circus of the past 4 years. :p
I mean since MPs are now circus clowns if they are not entertaining why do you bother paying them :lol:
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Bear Stearns
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Capitalist Paradise

Postby Bear Stearns » Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:37 pm

The greatest thing the English ever did was create a place called New England.
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Celritannia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:33 pm

Wow a lot of things went down here.
Firstly, on the point: Is conscription Slavery?
No, it is not, otherwise it would be against the Geneva Convention, and the UDHR.
Also:
Comments there give many reasons conscription is not slavery:

“The key difference is the idea of … `servitude for the public benefit’.”
“Cannot sell its conscripted soldiers … conscription offers pay.”
“Slavery as an institution appears to cause a lot more social harm than limited conscription powers.”
“People hate slavery because it is malicious and exploitative.”
“Conscripted soldiers are not owned by a private person. This is the same reason that we don’t consider taxes theft”
“Conscripts still have civil rights, slaves did not. Conscripts were paid, slaves were not. Conscripts could own property, especially real property,and wait for it, conscripts could VOTE.”
“If the ‘slaves’ could neither be bought nor sold, then they would just be serfs.”
“Slavery … is a permanent condition and [conscription] is not. One can apply to anyone, the other only to a specific cohort.”
“The connotation attached to conscription and slavery evokes different emotions … positive for conscription and negative for slavery.”


On the point of "Britain can only muster 4 Challenger 2s", according to http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0019.html, the British Army has 408 delivered with 227 in service as of 2016, including 59 used for training or held in reserve.
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Celritannia wrote:Wow a lot of things went down here.
Firstly, on the point: Is conscription Slavery?
No, it is not, otherwise it would be against the Geneva Convention, and the UDHR.
Also:
Comments there give many reasons conscription is not slavery:

“The key difference is the idea of … `servitude for the public benefit’.”
“Cannot sell its conscripted soldiers … conscription offers pay.”
“Slavery as an institution appears to cause a lot more social harm than limited conscription powers.”
“People hate slavery because it is malicious and exploitative.”
“Conscripted soldiers are not owned by a private person. This is the same reason that we don’t consider taxes theft”
“Conscripts still have civil rights, slaves did not. Conscripts were paid, slaves were not. Conscripts could own property, especially real property,and wait for it, conscripts could VOTE.”
“If the ‘slaves’ could neither be bought nor sold, then they would just be serfs.”
“Slavery … is a permanent condition and [conscription] is not. One can apply to anyone, the other only to a specific cohort.”
“The connotation attached to conscription and slavery evokes different emotions … positive for conscription and negative for slavery.”


On the point of "Britain can only muster 4 Challenger 2s", according to http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0019.html, the British Army has 408 delivered with 227 in service as of 2016, including 59 used for training or held in reserve.

Conscription evokes negative emotions in me.

“Of course X is not Y, because that would violate the law” is no a coherent argument.

Slavery does not need to be chattel slavery. People do not need a commodity for their labour to be slavery.

The fact that chattel slavery is worse does not mean that other forms of slavery don’t exist.

I don’t think conscription is slavery, but your arguments don’t prove that.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:53 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Celritannia wrote:Wow a lot of things went down here.
Firstly, on the point: Is conscription Slavery?
No, it is not, otherwise it would be against the Geneva Convention, and the UDHR.
Also:
Comments there give many reasons conscription is not slavery:



On the point of "Britain can only muster 4 Challenger 2s", according to http://www.armedforces.co.uk/army/listings/l0019.html, the British Army has 408 delivered with 227 in service as of 2016, including 59 used for training or held in reserve.

Conscription evokes negative emotions in me.

“Of course X is not Y, because that would violate the law” is no a coherent argument.

Slavery does not need to be chattel slavery. People do not need a commodity for their labour to be slavery.

The fact that chattel slavery is worse does not mean that other forms of slavery don’t exist.

I don’t think conscription is slavery, but your arguments don’t prove that.


Conscription is bad, I don't disagree with that, but it is not slavery.
And these aren't even my arguments, it's from this: https://www.overcomingbias.com/2011/05/ ... avery.html
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:09 am

Rebecca Long-Bailey has finally confirmed she is standing.
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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Tue Jan 07, 2020 5:40 am

Bear Stearns wrote:The greatest thing the English ever did was create a place called New England.


yet ironically enough the greatest thing new england did was tell england that they would full of shit and they couldn't be arsed with them anymore
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Tue Jan 07, 2020 7:56 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Bear Stearns wrote:The greatest thing the English ever did was create a place called New England.


yet ironically enough the greatest thing new england did was tell england that they would full of shit and they couldn't be arsed with them anymore

New England doesn't do much good tbf, they create the patriots and the Celtics, two of the most annoying franchises in sporting history.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:04 am

Another teenage neo-nazi detained
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

Is there some link between autism and having far right beliefs? There seem to have been quite a few of them.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:17 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Another teenage neo-nazi detained
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

We took the piss out of this guy in this thread a few months ago, specifically his laughable notes that he wrote. Pathetic little turd.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:20 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Another teenage neo-nazi detained
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

Is there some link between autism and having far right beliefs? There seem to have been quite a few of them.


There's a link to radical ideologies generally, because a common characteristic is a greater tendency to see things in "black and white". Groups that advocate political violence also actively target them, aware that some are vulnerable to being "converted", and then send them out to do the attacks because martyrdom is always for other people.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:23 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Another teenage neo-nazi detained
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

Is there some link between autism and having far right beliefs? There seem to have been quite a few of them.


There's a link to radical ideologies generally, because a common characteristic is a greater tendency to see things in "black and white". Groups that advocate political violence also actively target them, aware that some are vulnerable to being "converted", and then send them out to do the attacks because martyrdom is always for other people.


That's rather depressing, I wasn't aware of the far right actively targeting people like that.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:34 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
There's a link to radical ideologies generally, because a common characteristic is a greater tendency to see things in "black and white". Groups that advocate political violence also actively target them, aware that some are vulnerable to being "converted", and then send them out to do the attacks because martyrdom is always for other people.


That's rather depressing, I wasn't aware of the far right actively targeting people like that.


Their recruitment method is a copy-paste of what Islamists had been doing with reaching out to awkward and socially alienated recent converts in community spaces. Recruiters have a profile of the type of person they have the highest chances of winning over. "White Jihad" in more ways than one.
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Bieva
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Anarchy

Postby Bieva » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:46 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Another teenage neo-nazi detained
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-51022706

Is there some link between autism and having far right beliefs? There seem to have been quite a few of them.



Isn't it just a case of discontent with society => propensity for radicalism?
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