UK Politics Thread XI: Boris' Big Bombastic Brexit Bash

[Philjia]

Labour is not a Remain party.

So what is the stance of the LD pact towards the 50+ strong Remain Labour caucus, some of whom claim to have been given the final push off the fence by said pact? Are they going to stand against them and risk spoilage, or focus elsewhere?

They probably shouldn't stand against rogue hard remain Labour MPs who clearly dont give a shit what the leadership think anymore, but aside from them Labour is not a remain party. (Hence why they refused to join the pact)

[Ostroeuropa]

1-2. I disagree, the fact they support the Tories is evidence of supporting the far-right and Brexit at this point in our electoral history given the parties policies. If Labour elected a Stalinist and I kept voting for them, I would be supporting Stalinism.

Hold on, do we even know if most Jews still intend to vote Tory? When I google around I only find stuff like this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... emy-corbyn

Also, sorry but to me simply voting for Johnson isn't sufficient to label someone far right. A lot of people just don't care that much about Brexit either way at this point, but might hold their nose and vote for a clown like Boris anyway even if they're not too fond of him, because they just can't bring themselves to vote for Corbyn. That's not evidence of hard-line partisanship at all.

3. The contention is that Zionism is sometimes used as a dogwhistle by the far-right, therefore discussion of Zionists is de-facto anti-Semitic. Same for globalist and a number of other things. Since younger party members and older trots are against those things, they are conflated with anti-Semitism.

No it's more complicated than dog whistle politics. Things like holocaust denial, conspiracism or apologia/support of explicitly anti-Semitic groups, which is among the things the accusations include, is more than just dog whistles.

Under some definitions perhaps, but those are not the ones the public is familiar with nor used in common parlance. Self-determination is also not a guarantee of nationhood by the way, that's a vulgarization of It. It only requires constitutional equality and protections of autonomy.

It's more than that - if you have a particularly perverse desire to eradicate the nation of Israel, actively working against the material interests and safety of Jews in Israel - what actual difference is there from their perspective to that of an anti-Semite?

I suppose we have no proof of how they're voting at this stage that i'm aware of, no.

It's not only the Brexit policy I conclude is far-right, but the overall economic positions of the Conservative party after decades of drifting rightward.

There have been instances of these things but no causal mechanisms have been identified beyond "Corbyn bad, labour bad", unlike other examples of alleged institutional prejudice where specific dynamics are said to produce those attitudes.

[Philjia]

Huskar gets depressed and has his hope slowly die in a fire.

Hope is part of the Fenian radical agenda/Unionist oppression.

[Vassenor]

Also it would appear that Boris is demanding to be coddled at his photo op visits again.

Basically during a school visit the majority of the students were sequestered away from the entourage, ostensibly for security reasons, with only a specially selected sample being allowed anywhere near. The students in question feel it was a pretty blatant attempt to stop them asking him difficult questions, particularly about matters such as education cuts.

This really doesn't seem like particularly good optics, honestly. Especially after the whole fiasco with the hospital visit that totally wasn't a press op despite all the photographers and reporters. It's almost Trump-esque the way he's trying to go out of his way to avoid having to deal with potentially difficult questions about his policy positions.

[The Archregimancy]

Labour is not a Remain party.

So what is the stance of the LD pact towards the 50+ strong Remain Labour caucus, some of whom claim to have been given the final push off the fence by said pact? Are they going to stand against them and risk spoilage, or focus elsewhere?

It's not a 'LD pact'; it's a LD/Green/PC pact.

As to the 60 seats it covers, that information's already been posted in the thread:

If anyone's curious, here's a full (spoilered) list of the seats where the LibDems, Greens, and Plaid Cymru will stand aside for each other:

The LDs and Greens are standing aside for Plaid Cymru in the following Welsh seats:

Arfon (Held)

Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Held)

Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Held)

Ynys Mon

Pontypridd

Caerphilly

Llanelli

The LDs are standing aside for the Greens in these English seats:

Brighton Pavilion (Held)

Isle of Wight

Bury St Edmunds

Bristol West

Stroud

Dulwich & West Norwood

Cannock Chase

Exeter

Forest of Dean

PC and the Greens are standing aside for the LDs in the following Welsh seats:

Brecon & Radnorshire (Held)

Cardiff Central

Montgomeryshire

The Greens are standing aside for the LDs in these English seats:
Bath (Held)

North Norfolk (Held)

Oxford West & Abingdon (Held)

South Cambridgeshire (Held)

Totnes (Held)

Twickenham (Held)

Westmorland & Lonsdale (Held)

Bermondsey & Old Southwark

Buckingham

Cheadle

Chelmsford

Chelsea & Fulham

Cheltenham

Chippenham

Esher & Walton

Finchley & Golders Green

Guildford

Harrogate

Hazel Grove

Hitchin & Harpenden

North Cornwall

Penistone & Stocksbridge

Portsmouth South

Richmond Park

Romsey & Southampton North

Rushcliffe

South East Cambridgeshire

South West Surrey

Southport

Taunton Deane

Thornbury & Yate

Tunbridge Wells

Wantage

Warrington South

Watford

Wells

Wimbledon

Winchester

Witney

York Outer

You'll have to work out whether that damages any Labour or Tory Remainers yourself since I don't keep track of all of the members of the two main parties are in favour of Remain.

But the point stands; regardless of what individual Labour MPs think, Labour is not a Remain party. The resignation of Tom Watson means that Labour is even less of a Remain party this week than it was last week. That individual Labour MPs might be in favour of Remain no more makes it a Remain party than the presence of individual Tory MPs who are in favour of Remain makes the Conservative Party a Remain Party.

If Labour doesn't want find itself opposed by a pro-Remain alliance - even one that only covers 60 seats - then the solution is simple: Labour can adopt a Remain manifesto.

[Ostroeuropa]

So what is the stance of the LD pact towards the 50+ strong Remain Labour caucus, some of whom claim to have been given the final push off the fence by said pact? Are they going to stand against them and risk spoilage, or focus elsewhere?

It's not a 'LD pact'; it's a LD/Green/PC pact.

As to the 60 seats it covers, that information's already been posted in the thread:

If anyone's curious, here's a full (spoilered) list of the seats where the LibDems, Greens, and Plaid Cymru will stand aside for each other:

The LDs and Greens are standing aside for Plaid Cymru in the following Welsh seats:

Arfon (Held)

Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Held)

Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Held)

Ynys Mon

Pontypridd

Caerphilly

Llanelli

The LDs are standing aside for the Greens in these English seats:

Brighton Pavilion (Held)

Isle of Wight

Bury St Edmunds

Bristol West

Stroud

Dulwich & West Norwood

Cannock Chase

Exeter

Forest of Dean

PC and the Greens are standing aside for the LDs in the following Welsh seats:

Brecon & Radnorshire (Held)

Cardiff Central

Montgomeryshire

The Greens are standing aside for the LDs in these English seats:
Bath (Held)

North Norfolk (Held)

Oxford West & Abingdon (Held)

South Cambridgeshire (Held)

Totnes (Held)

Twickenham (Held)

Westmorland & Lonsdale (Held)

Bermondsey & Old Southwark

Buckingham

Cheadle

Chelmsford

Chelsea & Fulham

Cheltenham

Chippenham

Esher & Walton

Finchley & Golders Green

Guildford

Harrogate

Hazel Grove

Hitchin & Harpenden

North Cornwall

Penistone & Stocksbridge

Portsmouth South

Richmond Park

Romsey & Southampton North

Rushcliffe

South East Cambridgeshire

South West Surrey

Southport

Taunton Deane

Thornbury & Yate

Tunbridge Wells

Wantage

Warrington South

Watford

Wells

Wimbledon

Winchester

Witney

York Outer

You'll have to work out whether that damages any Labour or Tory Remainers yourself since I don't keep track of all of the members of the two main parties are in favour of Remain.

But the point stands; regardless of what individual Labour MPs think, Labour is not a Remain party. The resignation of Tom Watson means that Labour is even less of a Remain party this week than it was last week. That individual Labour MPs might be in favour of Remain no more makes it a Remain party than the presence of individual Tory MPs who are in favour of Remain makes the Conservative Party a Remain Party.

If Labour doesn't want find itself opposed by a pro-Remain alliance - even one that only covers 60 seats - then the solution is simple: Labour can adopt a Remain manifesto.

This is the kind of extremism that will cause Brexit.

Labour offers a path to remain, the most viable path to remain.

[The Archregimancy]

Also it would appear that Boris is demanding to be coddled at his photo op visits again.

Basically during a school visit the majority of the students were sequestered away from the entourage, ostensibly for security reasons, with only a specially selected sample being allowed anywhere near. The students in question feel it was a pretty blatant attempt to stop them asking him difficult questions, particularly about matters such as education cuts.

This really doesn't seem like particularly good optics, honestly. Especially after the whole fiasco with the hospital visit that totally wasn't a press op despite all the photographers and reporters. It's almost Trump-esque the way he's trying to go out of his way to avoid having to deal with potentially difficult questions about his policy positions.

Six sentences Vassenor - and a developed argument.

I'm genuinely, truthfully impressed.

I promise that's not sarcasm.

[The New California Republic]

While standing against defending anti-Brexit Labour MPs with razor thin margins?

Labour is not a Remain party.

Yup they have umm'ed and ahh'ed on the issue for so long to avoid pissing off those factions in the party that see Brexit as a positive step towards socialism.

[SD_Film Artists]

Quite the opposite, it's designed to make sure that the anti-brexit vote isn't split between different parties. This has already been proven to work in at least one recent by-election.

While standing against defending anti-Brexit Labour MPs with razor thin margins?

"Why should I pay rent when the landlord should let me stay for free?"

Also as The Archregimancy mentioned, Labour has consistently shown that it's not a Remain party.

[Ifreann]

While standing against defending anti-Brexit Labour MPs with razor thin margins?

"Why should I pay rent when the landlord should let me stay for free?"

Also as The Archregimancy mentioned, Labour has consistently shown that it's not a Remain party.

Why indeed.

[SD_Film Artists]

Quite the opposite, it's designed to make sure that the anti-brexit vote isn't split between different parties. This has already been proven to work in at least one recent by-election.

Vassenor is living in a world where Labour's refusal to join in any form of alliance is actually other people's fault, and a deliberate insidious attempt to harm Labour.

Never mind that individual attempts by Labour, LibDem, and Green constituency parties to reach local 'progressive alliance' agreements in 2017 were scuppered by the national Labour party, with Corbyn stating it wasn't a 'credible' option to work with the LibDems; never mind that the attempt to reach an agreement over a 'progressive alliance' in the Peterborough by-election were sabotaged by Labour (though that one turned out to be justified from the Labour Party's perspective after they scraped a victory); never mind that a significant sub-section of the Labour Party is opposed on principle to allying with LibDems, Blairites, and other objectionable capitalists; and never mind that Labour's convoluted policy on Brexit makes an alliance with the LibDems, Greens, and PC all but impossible anyway.

I'm almost impressed by Momentum's supreme accuracy in shooting themselves in the foot. They are predominantly anti-Brexit yet they're doing everything possible to make sure that they don't help the "Yellow Tories". It doesn't matter if Brexit happens or if BoJo gets a majority, just as long as they put their cross next to the rose and go to sleep saying that they did the right thing.

[Souseiseki]

It's not a 'LD pact'; it's a LD/Green/PC pact.

As to the 60 seats it covers, that information's already been posted in the thread:



You'll have to work out whether that damages any Labour or Tory Remainers yourself since I don't keep track of all of the members of the two main parties are in favour of Remain.

But the point stands; regardless of what individual Labour MPs think, Labour is not a Remain party. The resignation of Tom Watson means that Labour is even less of a Remain party this week than it was last week. That individual Labour MPs might be in favour of Remain no more makes it a Remain party than the presence of individual Tory MPs who are in favour of Remain makes the Conservative Party a Remain Party.

If Labour doesn't want find itself opposed by a pro-Remain alliance - even one that only covers 60 seats - then the solution is simple: Labour can adopt a Remain manifesto.

This is the kind of extremism that will cause Brexit.

Labour offers a path to remain, the most viable path to remain.

the problem is that labour cannot be full trusted in regards to remain and any remain scenario under labour will be a fumble. i don't envy the people that have to make the decision of whether to oppose labour and potentially help the tories or strike a pact with labour and risk corbyn coming out with some bullshit about how we need to get brexit done.

e: and ofc this as always is just another product of the UK's broken electoral system

[Imperializt Russia]

You mean the pact that's pretty much designed to hand the Conservatives the election?

Quite the opposite, it's designed to make sure that the anti-brexit vote isn't split between different parties. This has already been proven to work in at least one recent by-election.

Except nationality, because of how our elections work, there is little to gain here. It hands "largest party" status to the Tories, and therefore yet another minority government.

The Lib Dems under Swindon won't go into coalition with Labour under Corbyn, and all that will be achieved is Brexit deadlock. Again.
The Tories will cry that the big bad remain parties are stopping Brexit and nothing will move through parliament but no actual numbers to cancel Brexit will exist
Ignoring the fact that doing so will still be politically poisonous.

The Lib Dems can't "cancel Brexit". They can lobby for a second referendum that Remain is likely (but not guaranteed) to win.

[Vassenor]

Quite the opposite, it's designed to make sure that the anti-brexit vote isn't split between different parties. This has already been proven to work in at least one recent by-election.

Except nationality, because of how our elections work, there is little to gain here. It hands "largest party" status to the Tories, and therefore yet another minority government.

The Lib Dems under Swindon won't go into coalition with Labour under Corbyn, and all that will be achieved is Brexit deadlock. Again.
The Tories will cry that the big bad remain parties are stopping Brexit and nothing will move through parliament but no actual numbers to cancel Brexit will exist
Ignoring the fact that doing so will still be politically poisonous.

The Lib Dems can't "cancel Brexit". They can lobby for a second referendum that Remain is likely (but not guaranteed) to win.

And which Labour as a party are pushing for.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Huskar gets depressed and has his hope slowly die in a fire.

Hope is part of the Fenian radical agenda/Unionist oppression.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment

[Vassenor]

More generally, do we have any indications what impacts the postal strike may have on the election? Because part of me is wondering if the Conservatives timed the election to take advantage of it to potentially lock out demographics that tend to postal vote more.

[Stalliongrad and Far-Eastern Territories]

More generally, do we have any indications what impacts the postal strike may have on the election? Because part of me is wondering if the Conservatives timed the election to take advantage of it to potentially lock out demographics that tend to postal vote more.

Postal vote tends to skew Tory, so it's actually kind of good news in a roundabout way.

[SD_Film Artists]

Quite the opposite, it's designed to make sure that the anti-brexit vote isn't split between different parties. This has already been proven to work in at least one recent by-election.

Except nationality, because of how our elections work, there is little to gain here. It hands "largest party" status to the Tories, and therefore yet another minority government.

The Lib Dems under Swindon won't go into coalition with Labour under Corbyn, and all that will be achieved is Brexit deadlock. Again.
The Tories will cry that the big bad remain parties are stopping Brexit and nothing will move through parliament but no actual numbers to cancel Brexit will exist
Ignoring the fact that doing so will still be politically poisonous.

The Lib Dems can't "cancel Brexit". They can lobby for a second referendum that Remain is likely (but not guaranteed) to win.

The FPTP system is exactly why the pact is needed.

[SD_Film Artists]

Except nationality, because of how our elections work, there is little to gain here. It hands "largest party" status to the Tories, and therefore yet another minority government.

The Lib Dems under Swindon won't go into coalition with Labour under Corbyn, and all that will be achieved is Brexit deadlock. Again.
The Tories will cry that the big bad remain parties are stopping Brexit and nothing will move through parliament but no actual numbers to cancel Brexit will exist
Ignoring the fact that doing so will still be politically poisonous.

The Lib Dems can't "cancel Brexit". They can lobby for a second referendum that Remain is likely (but not guaranteed) to win.

And which Labour as a party are pushing for.

You mean the half-assed lip service that Corbyn uses as ballast for his fixation with sitting on fences?

[Vassenor]

And which Labour as a party are pushing for.

You mean the half-assed lip service that Corbyn uses as ballast for his fixation with sitting on fences?

Committing to "Whatever deal we get vs remain" is half-assed lip service?

Plus he and the party have been more than willing to back a full Remain push as recently as a week ago.

[SD_Film Artists]

You mean the half-assed lip service that Corbyn uses as ballast for his fixation with sitting on fences?

Committing to "Whatever deal we get vs remain" is half-assed lip service?

Lib Dems: "Blollocks to Brexit!"

Corbyn: "eer we may have a public vote after a successful election but we'll try to find a Brexit deal just as long as it doesn't come in blue."

[Imperializt Russia]

More generally, do we have any indications what impacts the postal strike may have on the election? Because part of me is wondering if the Conservatives timed the election to take advantage of it to potentially lock out demographics that tend to postal vote more.

Postal voting demographics (according to the Labour party emails I receive, at any rate) skew overwhelmingly in favour of the Tories.

It's too risky, even to try and hedge off wave of student postal votes.

[Vassenor]

More generally, do we have any indications what impacts the postal strike may have on the election? Because part of me is wondering if the Conservatives timed the election to take advantage of it to potentially lock out demographics that tend to postal vote more.

Postal voting demographics (according to the Labour party emails I receive, at any rate) skew overwhelmingly in favour of the Tories.

It's too risky, even to try and hedge off wave of student postal votes.

Fair enough. Mostly just talking as a postal voter myself, I guess.

[Imperializt Russia]

Committing to "Whatever deal we get vs remain" is half-assed lip service?

Lib Dems: "Blollocks to Brexit!"

Corbyn: "eer we may have a public vote after a successful election but we'll try to find a Brexit deal just as long as it doesn't come in blue."

Bollocks to Brexit is pretty plainly empty electioneering.

It's neither feasible not what anyone, aside from a particularly rabid pro-Remain lobby, actually want.
As rabidly pro-Remain as I am, "cancelling Brexit" doesn't fix anything, the system is still broken.

It also quite openly ignores doing something about why areas would vote Brexit - because Swinson has time and again voted in favour of policies that further deprivation of areas.

[Vassenor]

Lib Dems: "Blollocks to Brexit!"

Corbyn: "eer we may have a public vote after a successful election but we'll try to find a Brexit deal just as long as it doesn't come in blue."

Bollocks to Brexit is pretty plainly empty electioneering.

It's neither feasible not what anyone, aside from a particularly rabid pro-Remain lobby, actually want.
As rabidly pro-Remain as I am, "cancelling Brexit" doesn't fix anything, the system is still broken.

It also quite openly ignores doing something about why areas would vote Brexit - because Swinson has time and again voted in favour of policies that further deprivation of areas.

Honestly, that's how it should've been played from the beginning. "OK, people want to leave at the moment. Let's try to find out why and what we can do to fix that, then see if that solves it."