NATION

PASSWORD

MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Which would be your favored candidate for the 2020 Republican Party presidential nomination?

Donald Trump
47
27%
Rocky De La Fuente
5
3%
Joe Walsh
4
2%
Bill Weld
23
13%
Bob Ely
0
No votes
Zoltan Istvan
6
3%
None of the above/other
30
17%
David Hasselhoff
58
34%
 
Total votes : 173

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6776
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am

Tobleste wrote:
Fahran wrote:Mhm. And we weren't really too dumb either.

We just need to sort out how we're going to handle the soft stance offered by the Iraqi government. We can ignore it or we can employ it as an excuse to withdraw.


Given the US's current leadership, this is difficult to say. I'd be surprised if no previous US president had the chance to kill high ranking Iranians. Trump however is stupid enough to do so on a whim.


The Pentagon tabled the possibility of killing Suleimani for both Bush and Obama, but they both passed.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12953
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:53 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:The Pentagon tabled the possibility of killing Suleimani for both Bush and Obama, but they both passed.

It's a worthwhile retaliation in light of the increasing boldness of the Russians and Iranians in exerting their hegemony over would-be spheres of influence. Iran couldn't strike back at us effectively and even managed to kill Iraqi soldiers and airmen in the process, a grotesque violation of Iraq's sovereignty that is arguably more egregious than the killing of an acknowledged terrorist. That serves to illustrate the point. Iran cannot win these proxy wars short of an American capitulation and Iran cannot even begin to contemplate a conventional war which will leave them with the options to continuing the current proxy war while being less brazen about it or backing off altogether.
You know you love me. XOXO - Gossip Girl

User avatar
Zurkerx
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8913
Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:15 am

Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.
A Golden Civic: The New Pragmatic Libertarian
My Words: Indeed, Indubitably & Malarkey
Retired Admin in NSGS and NS Parliament

Accountant, Author, History Buff, Political Junkie
“Has ambition so eclipsed principle?” ~ Mitt Romney
"Try not to become a person of success, but rather try to become a person of value." ~ Albert Einstein
"Trust, but verify." ~ Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:30 am

Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.

Silly rabbit, fiscal responsibility are for Democrats!
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
San Lumen
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54836
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:34 am

Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.

And yet people claim this isn't a problem because we can just keep borrowing money without consequence since we are the worlds piggy bank.

User avatar
Fahran
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 12953
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:35 am

I want this commitment to fiscal responsibility carried over in the next election when we all vote for a libertarian. :p
You know you love me. XOXO - Gossip Girl

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:28 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.


Fiscal responsibility is a spook. It's basically just a nice way of saying that they want money spent on what they want money spent on.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Eahland
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1481
Founded: Apr 18, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Eahland » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:59 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.

The Republican claim to fiscal responsibility has been a filthy lie since Reagan. The Republican version of "fiscal responsibility" is "running up the credit cards and not paying the bills", which is kind of the exact opposite of responsibility. It provides some short-term gratification, but fucks us down the road. And then when the bills come due and they can't pay them, they get thrown out of office and blame the whole thing on the Democrat who's trying to clean up their mess.
Eahlisc Wordboc (Glossary)
Eahlisc Healþambiht segþ: NE DRENCE, EÐA, OÞÞE ONDO BLÆCE!

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:10 pm

Eahland wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.

The Republican claim to fiscal responsibility has been a filthy lie since Reagan. The Republican version of "fiscal responsibility" is "running up the credit cards and not paying the bills", which is kind of the exact opposite of responsibility. It provides some short-term gratification, but fucks us down the road. And then when the bills come due and they can't pay them, they get thrown out of office and blame the whole thing on the Democrat who's trying to clean up their mess.


There is literally zero point ever that the U.S. hasn't "paid the bills"
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:08 pm

Telconi wrote:
Eahland wrote:The Republican claim to fiscal responsibility has been a filthy lie since Reagan. The Republican version of "fiscal responsibility" is "running up the credit cards and not paying the bills", which is kind of the exact opposite of responsibility. It provides some short-term gratification, but fucks us down the road. And then when the bills come due and they can't pay them, they get thrown out of office and blame the whole thing on the Democrat who's trying to clean up their mess.


There is literally zero point ever that the U.S. hasn't "paid the bills"


Government shutdowns. Bills eg wages go unpaid, even if they are made up later.

It's not the phrase I would have chosen though. The point is that Republicans promise again and again to balance the budget (no new borrowing) and they never actually do it.
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14468
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:14 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Telconi wrote:
There is literally zero point ever that the U.S. hasn't "paid the bills"


Government shutdowns. Bills eg wages go unpaid, even if they are made up later.

It's not the phrase I would have chosen though. The point is that Republicans promise again and again to balance the budget (no new borrowing) and they never actually do it.

You misunderstand. The GOP interpretation of "balancing the 'budget'" is "delete all government income ever and embrace anarcho-capitalism".

User avatar
Myrensis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5006
Founded: Oct 05, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Myrensis » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:54 pm

Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.


'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Thu Jan 09, 2020 7:58 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.


'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!


Why would they shriek about spending they do like?
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
The Black Forrest
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43708
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Black Forrest » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:14 pm

Telconi wrote:
Myrensis wrote:
'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!


Why would they shriek about spending they do like?


It’s one of the commandments of hypocrisy.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

User avatar
Zurkerx
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8913
Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:21 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.


'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!


You're not wrong with the buzzword part though there are some among us that do take the word seriously and are disappointed when it's not happening. And yep, the GOP being hypocrites hasn't changed.
A Golden Civic: The New Pragmatic Libertarian
My Words: Indeed, Indubitably & Malarkey
Retired Admin in NSGS and NS Parliament

Accountant, Author, History Buff, Political Junkie
“Has ambition so eclipsed principle?” ~ Mitt Romney
"Try not to become a person of success, but rather try to become a person of value." ~ Albert Einstein
"Trust, but verify." ~ Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 34904
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Telconi » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:22 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Why would they shriek about spending they do like?


It’s one of the commandments of hypocrisy.


"Irresponsible spending" has more punch than "spending I don't personally approve of" but when you cut through the shit, it's the same thing.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Zurkerx
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 8913
Founded: Jan 20, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Zurkerx » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:25 pm

In other news that will likely infuriate Republicans and Trump, DOJ inquiry into Hillary Clinton's business dealings is winding down, finding not enough evidence to prosecute her.

Yep, I suspect we'll see another investigation soon enough, and for the GOP and Trump to largely ignore it, just like they have with Horowitz's Probe into the FBI.
A Golden Civic: The New Pragmatic Libertarian
My Words: Indeed, Indubitably & Malarkey
Retired Admin in NSGS and NS Parliament

Accountant, Author, History Buff, Political Junkie
“Has ambition so eclipsed principle?” ~ Mitt Romney
"Try not to become a person of success, but rather try to become a person of value." ~ Albert Einstein
"Trust, but verify." ~ Ronald Reagan

User avatar
Great Minarchistan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5953
Founded: Jan 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:22 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.

And yet people claim this isn't a problem because we can just keep borrowing money without consequence since we are the worlds piggy bank.

as much as im not a fan of government deficits, the current debt burden is *definitely* manageable, and so are current deficit levels
Awarded for Best Capitalist in 2018 NSG Awards ;')
##############################
Fmr. libertarian, irredeemable bank shill and somewhere inbetween classical liberalism and neoliberalism // Political Compass: +8.75 Economic, -2.25 Social (May 2019)

User avatar
Great Minarchistan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5953
Founded: Jan 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:24 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Zurkerx wrote:Trump legislation added $4.7 trillion to debt, according to a study by the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, an anti-debt advocacy group.

So much for claiming the fiscal responsibility tent although it seems Republicans don't care or are too afraid to speak out about that.


'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!

yeah no sir, trump would still need to up the bar by another trillion or so to get on obama's level
Awarded for Best Capitalist in 2018 NSG Awards ;')
##############################
Fmr. libertarian, irredeemable bank shill and somewhere inbetween classical liberalism and neoliberalism // Political Compass: +8.75 Economic, -2.25 Social (May 2019)

User avatar
Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:30 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Myrensis wrote:
'Fiscal Responsibility' has never been anything but a conservative buzzword for complaining about any spending they don't like.

Should not be surprising that after all their shrieking about Obama, who came into office during a global economic crisis, they're completely silent on the fact that Trump is on track to outpace him in racking up debt, in spite of the 'great' economy that was going to balance the budget by itself!

yeah no sir, trump would still need to up the bar by another trillion or so to get on obama's level

Maybe Obama shouldn't have put Bush 2's secret Iraq War spendings on the book in the first place so right-wingers can bitch about his "spending".
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
Great Minarchistan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5953
Founded: Jan 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:34 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:yeah no sir, trump would still need to up the bar by another trillion or so to get on obama's level

Maybe Obama shouldn't have put Bush 2's secret Iraq War spendings on the book in the first place so right-wingers can bitch about his "spending".

yeah gauth, keep telling that to yourself even though 95% of the defense budget is discretionary :)
Awarded for Best Capitalist in 2018 NSG Awards ;')
##############################
Fmr. libertarian, irredeemable bank shill and somewhere inbetween classical liberalism and neoliberalism // Political Compass: +8.75 Economic, -2.25 Social (May 2019)

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16960
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:42 pm

Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Government shutdowns. Bills eg wages go unpaid, even if they are made up later.

It's not the phrase I would have chosen though. The point is that Republicans promise again and again to balance the budget (no new borrowing) and they never actually do it.

You misunderstand. The GOP interpretation of "balancing the 'budget'" is "delete all government income ever and embrace anarcho-capitalism".

I see nothing wrong here.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

User avatar
Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:49 pm

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Maybe Obama shouldn't have put Bush 2's secret Iraq War spendings on the book in the first place so right-wingers can bitch about his "spending".

yeah gauth, keep telling that to yourself even though 95% of the defense budget is discretionary :)

This is an opinion piece, but it goes into detail on how the Bush Administration resorted to off the books spending to fund the Iraq War. Sure sounds discretionary.

How the US public was defrauded by the hidden cost of the Iraq war

The most striking fact about the cost of the war in Iraq has been the extent to which it has been kept "off the books" of the government's ledgers and hidden from the American people. This was done by design. A fundamental assumption of the Bush administration's approach to the war was that it was only politically sustainable if it was portrayed as near-costless to the American public and to key constituencies in Washington. The dirty little secret of the Iraq war – one that both Bush and the war hawks in the Democratic party knew, but would never admit – was that the American people would only support a war to get rid of Saddam Hussein if they could be assured that they would pay almost nothing for it.

The most obvious way in which the true cost of this war was kept hidden was with the use of supplemental appropriations to fund the occupation. By one estimate, 70% of the costs of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan between 2003 and 2008 were funded with supplemental or emergency appropriations approved outside the Pentagon's annual budget. These appropriations allowed the Bush administration to shield the Pentagon's budget from the cuts otherwise needed to finance the war, to keep the Pentagon's pet programs intact and to escape the scrutiny that Congress gives to its normal annual regular appropriations.

With the Iraq war treated as an "off the books" expense, the Pentagon was allowed to keep spending on high-end military equipment and cutting-edge technology. In fiscal terms, it was as if the messy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never happening.

More fundamentally, the Bush administration masked the cost of the war with deficit spending to ensure that the American people would not face up to its costs while President Bush was in office. Despite their recent discovery of outrage over the national debt, the Republicans followed the advice of Vice-President Dick Cheney that "deficits don't matter" and spent freely on domestic programs throughout the Bush years. The Bush administration encouraged the American people to keep spending and "enjoy life", while the government paid for the occupation of Iraq on a credit card they hoped never to have to repay.

Most Americans were not asked to make any sacrifice for the Iraq war, while its real costs were confined to the 1% of the population who fought and died there. As a result, the average American was never forced to confront whether pouring money borrowed from China into the corrupt Iraqi security services was worth it, or whether it made more sense to rebuild infrastructure in Diyala, rather than, say, Philadelphia.

One consequence of the way that the true costs of the Iraq war was hidden from the American people was an explosion of fraud, waste and abuse. The recent final report of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (Sigir) estimates that the US lost to corruption or waste at least $8bn of the $60bn devoted to reconstructing Iraq.
Last edited by Gormwood on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
Great Minarchistan
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5953
Founded: Jan 08, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Great Minarchistan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:02 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:yeah gauth, keep telling that to yourself even though 95% of the defense budget is discretionary :)

This is an opinion piece, but it goes into detail on how the Bush Administration resorted to off the books spending to fund the Iraq War. Sure sounds discretionary.

How the US public was defrauded by the hidden cost of the Iraq war

The most striking fact about the cost of the war in Iraq has been the extent to which it has been kept "off the books" of the government's ledgers and hidden from the American people. This was done by design. A fundamental assumption of the Bush administration's approach to the war was that it was only politically sustainable if it was portrayed as near-costless to the American public and to key constituencies in Washington. The dirty little secret of the Iraq war – one that both Bush and the war hawks in the Democratic party knew, but would never admit – was that the American people would only support a war to get rid of Saddam Hussein if they could be assured that they would pay almost nothing for it.

The most obvious way in which the true cost of this war was kept hidden was with the use of supplemental appropriations to fund the occupation. By one estimate, 70% of the costs of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan between 2003 and 2008 were funded with supplemental or emergency appropriations approved outside the Pentagon's annual budget. These appropriations allowed the Bush administration to shield the Pentagon's budget from the cuts otherwise needed to finance the war, to keep the Pentagon's pet programs intact and to escape the scrutiny that Congress gives to its normal annual regular appropriations.

With the Iraq war treated as an "off the books" expense, the Pentagon was allowed to keep spending on high-end military equipment and cutting-edge technology. In fiscal terms, it was as if the messy wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were never happening.

More fundamentally, the Bush administration masked the cost of the war with deficit spending to ensure that the American people would not face up to its costs while President Bush was in office. Despite their recent discovery of outrage over the national debt, the Republicans followed the advice of Vice-President Dick Cheney that "deficits don't matter" and spent freely on domestic programs throughout the Bush years. The Bush administration encouraged the American people to keep spending and "enjoy life", while the government paid for the occupation of Iraq on a credit card they hoped never to have to repay.

Most Americans were not asked to make any sacrifice for the Iraq war, while its real costs were confined to the 1% of the population who fought and died there. As a result, the average American was never forced to confront whether pouring money borrowed from China into the corrupt Iraqi security services was worth it, or whether it made more sense to rebuild infrastructure in Diyala, rather than, say, Philadelphia.

One consequence of the way that the true costs of the Iraq war was hidden from the American people was an explosion of fraud, waste and abuse. The recent final report of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction (Sigir) estimates that the US lost to corruption or waste at least $8bn of the $60bn devoted to reconstructing Iraq.

I dont think you understand what you are quoting: emergency appropriations (which still have to be approved by Congress!) are not "off the book" expenses, they are just modifications to the budget passed at the start of every fiscal year. Were GWB sweeping expenses under the carpet, that would be a sure way to get him removed for budget crimes. On another note, I dont think you understand the meaning of "discretionary" to make that jab, do you?

All that said, I wonder if you still think of Obama the same way knowing that he couldve cut a deal with congress to cut the defense budget :)
Awarded for Best Capitalist in 2018 NSG Awards ;')
##############################
Fmr. libertarian, irredeemable bank shill and somewhere inbetween classical liberalism and neoliberalism // Political Compass: +8.75 Economic, -2.25 Social (May 2019)

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14115
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:32 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:You misunderstand. The GOP interpretation of "balancing the 'budget'" is "delete all government income ever and embrace anarcho-capitalism".

I see nothing wrong here.


ABH has parodied the Republican position to such an extreme degree that you agree with it. I find that quite funny!

I'm actually not too bothered by deficits, whether they come by spending or by the lack of taxes. As long as interest rates are very low the government is basically rolling over old debt to new debt on very favourable terms. What's not to like?
I report offenses if and only if they are crimes.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Caffeinetopia, Celritannia, Dresderstan, Fahran, Fartsniffage, Google [Bot], Grinning Dragon, Kedri, Kowani, Lazarian, Monsone, Necroghastia, Northern Socialist Council Republics, Omniabstracta, Ostroeuropa, Saiwania, Shrillland, Suryak, Sword Island, The Greater Ohio Valley, The Huskar Social Union, The New California Republic, Valrifell, Washington Resistance Army, Xmara

Advertisement

Remove ads