NATION

PASSWORD

MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

Which would be your favored candidate for the 2020 Republican Party presidential nomination?

Donald Trump
47
27%
Rocky De La Fuente
5
3%
Joe Walsh
4
2%
Bill Weld
23
13%
Bob Ely
0
No votes
Zoltan Istvan
6
3%
None of the above/other
30
17%
David Hasselhoff
58
34%
 
Total votes : 173

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30795
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:28 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Nope, don't need to.

Oh, you do, because I am dumb and don’t understand what you are claiming. Please expound.


I don't, your lack of understanding isn't my responsibility to rectify.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:32 pm

Telconi wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Two crimes are mentioned as ground for impeachment.

The impeachment clause says the President SHALL be removed on impeachment and conviction.

But it does not say the President SHALL be impeached for the commission of a crime (presumably proven some other way) or the other things.

If it did say that, I think I'd agree that impeachment replaces regular prosecution, and maybe even grants immunity for "lesser" crimes.


He shall be removed upon impeachment and conviction, but he hasn't been convicted.


My point is that the Congress isn't required to impeach under any circumstances.

Suppose he commits treason, no doubt about it, I'd rather he be tried in a court and imprisoned for 20 to 50 years. Whether or not he serves out his time as President (that's up to the Congress), he should do just as much time as I would if I committed the crime.
Also, AiliAiliA.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 18119
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:32 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:An opinion based on what the Courts would be most likely to decide.

Says who?

That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Oh, you do, because I am dumb and don’t understand what you are claiming. Please expound.


I don't, your lack of understanding isn't my responsibility to rectify.

Are you debating yourself, then?
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 18119
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:33 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Telconi wrote:
He shall be removed upon impeachment and conviction, but he hasn't been convicted.


My point is that the Congress isn't required to impeach under any circumstances.

Suppose he commits treason, no doubt about it, I'd rather he be tried in a court and imprisoned for 20 to 50 years. Whether or not he serves out his time as President (that's up to the Congress), he should do just as much time as I would if I committed the crime.


You can try in a regular court after impeachment.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35236
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:34 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Says who?

That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.

Telconi wrote:
I don't, your lack of understanding isn't my responsibility to rectify.

Are you debating yourself, then?

So if the Senate decided they wouldnt convict even if Trump assaulted Secret Service and threatened staff with a gun so be it? Your effectively declaring the President above the law.
Last edited by San Lumen on Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:35 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Says who?

That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Well that's just great.

Trump has probably committed some crimes, in office, we just don't know about yet. And once he's out I hope that interpretation of the constitution is put to a serious test.
Also, AiliAiliA.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35236
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Well that's just great.

Trump has probably committed some crimes, in office, we just don't know about yet. And once he's out I hope that interpretation of the constitution is put to a serious test.

That's if he loses in November. The statue of limitations runs out on a lot of things come next January.

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30795
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:36 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Says who?

That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.

Telconi wrote:
I don't, your lack of understanding isn't my responsibility to rectify.

Are you debating yourself, then?


Nobody is debating.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:42 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Are you debating yourself, then?

So if the Senate decided they wouldnt convict even if Trump assaulted Secret Service and threatened staff with a gun so be it? Your effectively declaring the President above the law.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What if Trump loses in November? He'll still be President for a couple of months, but with nothing to lose. He might literally shoot someone, hell he might nuke someone. And all we could do about it is remove him a few weeks early (and ban him from running again, which he wouldn't anyway).
Also, AiliAiliA.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 18119
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:43 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Well that's just great.

Trump has probably committed some crimes, in office, we just don't know about yet. And once he's out I hope that interpretation of the constitution is put to a serious test.

His immunity only works while he is in office, though. It ceases to work retroactively once he loses his office.

Telconi wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Are you debating yourself, then?


Nobody is debating.

He said, on a political debating forum.

San Lumen wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Well that's just great.

Trump has probably committed some crimes, in office, we just don't know about yet. And once he's out I hope that interpretation of the constitution is put to a serious test.

That's if he loses in November. The statue of limitations runs out on a lot of things come next January.

I’d argue the statute of limitations does not apply to people who enjoy immunity, for the same reason it does not apply for those who are at large.

San Lumen wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:That’s what a legal opinion is, in essence.

And I happen to agree with the opinion. Impeachment would not make sense without immunity, and the Federalist Papers imply as much. I think it’s stupid, but that does not mean that’s not the system in the constitution. It just makes the constitution faulty in that regard.


Are you debating yourself, then?

So if the Senate decided they wouldnt convict even if Trump assaulted Secret Service and threatened staff with a gun so be it? Your effectively declaring the President above the law.

Yeah, that’s basically it. Well, not really above the law, since the constitution gives him that immunity, but that is the system in the constitution. Again, it is a dumb system, and it allows for huge abuses of power if the president has the Senate on his side, but that is the system out in place by the constitution nonetheless.

Mind, he can still be prosecuted once his term ends. Just not while in office.

This fault stems from the fact that the Senate was supposed to be above party politics, but when the Senate was changed to be elected by popular vote they did not alter anything else, thus giving the newly partisan Senate a lot of powers that were supposed to be wielded impartially, impeachment among them.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35236
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:44 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
San Lumen wrote:So if the Senate decided they wouldnt convict even if Trump assaulted Secret Service and threatened staff with a gun so be it? Your effectively declaring the President above the law.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What if Trump loses in November? He'll still be President for a couple of months, but with nothing to lose. He might literally shoot someone, hell he might nuke someone. And all we could do about it is remove him a few weeks early (and ban him from running again, which he wouldn't anyway).


I doubt he's that insane he would nuke Tehran or wherever else simply because he lost.

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 18119
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:44 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
San Lumen wrote:So if the Senate decided they wouldnt convict even if Trump assaulted Secret Service and threatened staff with a gun so be it? Your effectively declaring the President above the law.


Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What if Trump loses in November? He'll still be President for a couple of months, but with nothing to lose. He might literally shoot someone, hell he might nuke someone. And all we could do about it is remove him a few weeks early (and ban him from running again, which he wouldn't anyway).

And prosecute him. Since we can prosecute after he leaves office.
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:44 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
My point is that the Congress isn't required to impeach under any circumstances.

Suppose he commits treason, no doubt about it, I'd rather he be tried in a court and imprisoned for 20 to 50 years. Whether or not he serves out his time as President (that's up to the Congress), he should do just as much time as I would if I committed the crime.


You can try in a regular court after impeachment.


Well that's some consolation. Precedent says the next President will pardon him and the trial will be abandoned. But maybe not for serious and common crimes.
Also, AiliAiliA.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35236
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:45 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

What if Trump loses in November? He'll still be President for a couple of months, but with nothing to lose. He might literally shoot someone, hell he might nuke someone. And all we could do about it is remove him a few weeks early (and ban him from running again, which he wouldn't anyway).

And prosecute him. Since we can prosecute after he leaves office.

If he's blown up the world because he decided throw a temper tantrum will it matter?

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30795
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:46 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
You can try in a regular court after impeachment.


Well that's some consolation. Precedent says the next President will pardon him and the trial will be abandoned. But maybe not for serious and common crimes.


Yeah, I doubt that having your predecessor arrested is a good idea going forward. That would be a hell of a transition.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
P2TM RP Mentor
 
Posts: 18119
Founded: Feb 20, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:50 pm

San Lumen wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:And prosecute him. Since we can prosecute after he leaves office.

If he's blown up the world because he decided throw a temper tantrum will it matter?

Would it matter if he could be arrested during the apocalypse?
The name's James. James Usari. Well, my name is not actually James Usari, so don't bother actually looking it up, but it'll do for now.

Lack of a real name means compensation through a real face. My debt is settled


Part-time Kebab tycoon in Glasgow.

User avatar
Nobel Hobos 2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1798
Founded: Dec 04, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:50 pm

Telconi wrote:
Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Well that's some consolation. Precedent says the next President will pardon him and the trial will be abandoned. But maybe not for serious and common crimes.


Yeah, I doubt that having your predecessor arrested is a good idea going forward. That would be a hell of a transition.


And "dignity of the office" etc crap. I don't think anyone should be above the law though.

The thread is called All Things NOT Impeachment btw ...
Also, AiliAiliA.
No footwear industry: citizens cannot afford new shoes.
High rate of Nobel prizes and other academic achievements.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Czar
 
Posts: 35236
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby San Lumen » Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:52 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
San Lumen wrote:If he's blown up the world because he decided throw a temper tantrum will it matter?

Would it matter if he could be arrested during the apocalypse?

i would hope someone would stop him from being so petty if he lost.

User avatar
Telconi
Post Czar
 
Posts: 30795
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Mon Jan 06, 2020 4:01 pm

Nobel Hobos 2 wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Yeah, I doubt that having your predecessor arrested is a good idea going forward. That would be a hell of a transition.


And "dignity of the office" etc crap. I don't think anyone should be above the law though.

The thread is called All Things NOT Impeachment btw ...


The agents of the government aren't above the law, but they're also not subject to the same laws as everyone else
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Fahran
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:20 pm

Telconi wrote:Given how quickly Iraq is devolving into an Iranian puppet state, they sure as shit are.

A lot of Shiites in Iraq's government are pro-Iranian. The Kurds, Sunnis, and even much of the Shiite population, on the other hand, have a good number of reservations about Iranian hegemony for a lot of the same reasons they had reservations about American occupation.
Last edited by Fahran on Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi. I'm Fahran. I'm aggressively Jewish and rep that premed srat life.
Diopolis wrote:*mutters to self* hope not hoppe. Hope not hoppe.

User avatar
Fahran
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:21 pm

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Telconi wrote:
And what's the legal recourse for these things?

Impeachment. If the Senate thinks crimes were committed, they should impeach the president. They swore an oath to that effect.

And if they don't think crimes were committed or aren't certain?
Hi. I'm Fahran. I'm aggressively Jewish and rep that premed srat life.
Diopolis wrote:*mutters to self* hope not hoppe. Hope not hoppe.

User avatar
West Leas Oros 2
Minister
 
Posts: 3097
Founded: Jul 15, 2018
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Again, why didn't we kill this guy discreetly? I know how Trump loves his ego boosts, but lives are on the line.
West Leas Oros 2, Election Boogaloo (Please ignore the 2 in our name in all IC interactions)
WLO Public News: Outdated Factbooks and other documents in process of major redesign!
I killed the entire population of Vuvuzela by raising the minimum wage
Simultaneously an evil commie who wants to take your toothbrush, and an evil brocialist reactionary and revisionist.
Identity politics are counterrevolutionary, mmmkay?

DIO FLAG DIO FLAG

User avatar
Gormwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9885
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Gormwood » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:29 pm

Fahran wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Impeachment. If the Senate thinks crimes were committed, they should impeach the president. They swore an oath to that effect.

And if they don't think crimes were committed or aren't certain?

They think only Democratic Presidents commit crimes of course. #Blowjobpeachment
Last edited by Gormwood on Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

User avatar
Fahran
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8312
Founded: Nov 13, 2017
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fahran » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:39 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fahran wrote:And if they don't think crimes were committed or aren't certain?

They think only Democratic Presidents commit crimes of course. #Blowjobpeachment

Perjury is a serious crime, Gauth.
Hi. I'm Fahran. I'm aggressively Jewish and rep that premed srat life.
Diopolis wrote:*mutters to self* hope not hoppe. Hope not hoppe.

User avatar
Northern Davincia
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13787
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Mon Jan 06, 2020 5:39 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fahran wrote:And if they don't think crimes were committed or aren't certain?

They think only Democratic Presidents commit crimes of course. #Blowjobpeachment

Glad to know you view perjury so lightly.
Right-Libertarian, Minarchist, Laissez-faire Capitalist, Catholic

Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aureumterra, Chessmistress, Chrinthanium, Diopolis, Google [Bot], Graag Brom, Heloin, HIreland, Kruiven, LiberNovusAmericae, Minachia, Nobel Hobos 2, Omerica, Ostroeuropa, Proctopeo, Recuecn, Shrillland, Sundiata, The Chuck, The New California Republic, The World Capitalist Confederation, Thermodolia, True Refuge, United Kingdom of Poland, Vassenor

Advertisement

Remove ads