MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

[Vassenor]

And how is it hostile to Jewish Self Determination?

Because its founder notably supports a one-state solution that would dismantle Israel and a good portion of its membership are activists who hold a similar view. Anti-Zionism, while you continue to support national self-determination for other ethnic and national groups, is almost indistinguishable from Antisemitism. If BDS got what it wanted, it would do considerable harm to Jewish and Israeli students. So, yeah, it violates their civil rights.

But the one-state solution that would dismantle Palestine is totally OK apparently and not in any way anti-self determination.

[Fahran]

Trumpsplaining.

>Assuming Trump actually writes legislation

Whoa, buddy.

[The East Marches II]

Because its founder notably supports a one-state solution that would dismantle Israel and a good portion of its membership are activists who hold a similar view. Anti-Zionism, while you continue to support national self-determination for other ethnic and national groups, is almost indistinguishable from Antisemitism. If BDS got what it wanted, it would do considerable harm to Jewish and Israeli students. So, yeah, it violates their civil rights.

But the one-state solution that would dismantle Palestine is totally OK apparently and not in any way anti-self determination.

You engaged with literally nothing they said. Does that mean you don't disagree with the evidence presented?

[Proctopeo]

Because its founder notably supports a one-state solution that would dismantle Israel and a good portion of its membership are activists who hold a similar view. Anti-Zionism, while you continue to support national self-determination for other ethnic and national groups, is almost indistinguishable from Antisemitism. If BDS got what it wanted, it would do considerable harm to Jewish and Israeli students. So, yeah, it violates their civil rights.

But the one-state solution that would dismantle Palestine is totally OK apparently and not in any way anti-self determination.

I don't think Fahran has made that argument.
Please, pay attention to what's being said.

[Fahran]

But the one-state solution that would dismantle Palestine is totally OK apparently and not in any way anti-self determination.

Where precisely have I argued that? We don't have visible groups on university campuses pressing us to support dismantling Palestine.

[Vassenor]

Trumpsplaining.

>Assuming Trump actually writes legislation

Whoa, buddy.

So who writes Executive Orders then?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

>Assuming Trump actually writes legislation

Whoa, buddy.

So who writes Executive Orders then?

You mean Not!Imperial Edicts. <.>

[The East Marches II]

>Assuming Trump actually writes legislation

Whoa, buddy.

So who writes Executive Orders then?

Those aren't laws Vassenor, no matter how much the executive would want them to be :^)

[Fahran]

So who writes Executive Orders then?

I imagine a staffer or lobbyist in Trump's case given his lack of nuance, legalisms, and grammar.

[Vassenor]

So who writes Executive Orders then?

I imagine a staffer or lobbyist in Trump's case given his lack of nuance, legalisms, and grammar.

And on who's guidance?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

So who writes Executive Orders then?

I imagine a staffer or lobbyist in Trump's case given his lack of nuance, legalisms, and grammar.

Obviously a court scribe who translates Trump's latest ramblings into EO's.

[Ifreann]

In an effort to shut down BDS movements on college campuses Trump will sign an executive order designating Judaism a nationality, not just a religion. He's enshrining the dual-loyalty myth into law.

Honestly, Trump is taking proactive steps to more concretely incorporate ethnically Jewish people and Israelis into the 1964 Civil Rights Act which prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. BDS and many movements like it are hotbeds of Antisemitism that tacitly encourage and promote public institutions funded by tax-payers discriminating against groups of people based on their ethnicity and national origin. So, yeah, there's nothing actually wrong here. Y'all just have an issue with Jewish self-determination.

I have no issue with Jewish self-determination. Telling American citizens that they are dual nationality American-Jewish citizens, not because they have chosen to be such but because the President wants to ban legitimate political protests, violates that right. This should be obvious, it's self-determination, not Trump-determination.

[Fahran]

I imagine a staffer or lobbyist in Trump's case given his lack of nuance, legalisms, and grammar.

And on who's guidance?

Trump is a policy generalist. EO's and legislation are written by policy specialists. I imagine those fine ladies and gentlemen explained to Trump what I have explained to you and he listened to their arguments and found them compelling. He also knew that this would make him look good with his base and lead to his opposition sticking up for racists in a way that most of the older ones haven't done since the 1970's.

[Fahran]

I have no issue with Jewish self-determination.

Then this EO wouldn't impact you and your activism given the definition of Antisemitism in use.

Telling American citizens that they are dual nationality American-Jewish citizens, not because they have chosen to be such but because the President wants to ban legitimate political protests, violates that right.

The EO doesn't grant Jewish Americans dual citizenship or insinuate in any way that American Jews and Israelis are synonymous with one another. It merely reiterates that Jewish Americans, like all other Jewish people, have a right to national self-determination and that attempts to mitigate that right are discriminatory even when a particular Jewish American may have no desire to exercise said right. And that's before we get into all the racist language a lot of these groups use.

This should be obvious, it's self-determination, not Trump-determination.

The EO doesn't seem to imply that, though Trump's past rhetoric on the matter has been slippery and problematic. Hence why Trump probably didn't write the EO.

[Gravlen]

EXECUTIVE ORDER
- - - - - - -
COMBATING ANTI-SEMITISM

By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered as follows:

Section 1. Policy.
My Administration is committed to combating the rise of anti-Semitism and anti-Semitic incidents in the United States and around the world. Anti-Semitic incidents have increased since 2013, and students, in particular, continue to face anti-Semitic harassment in schools and on university and college campuses. Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VI), 42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq., prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, and national origin in programs and activities receiving Federal financial assistance. While Title VI does not cover discrimination based on religion, individuals who face discrimination on the basis of race, color, or national origin do not lose protection under Title VI for also being a member of a group that shares common religious practices. Discrimination against Jews may give rise to a Title VI violation when the discrimination is based on an individual's race, color, or national origin. It shall be the policy of the executive branch to enforce Title VI against prohibited forms of discrimination rooted in anti-Semitism as vigorously as against all other forms of discrimination prohibited by Title VI.

Sec. 2. Ensuring Robust Enforcement of Title VI.
(a) In enforcing Title VI, and identifying evidence of discrimination based on race, color, or national origin, all executive departments and agencies (agencies) charged with enforcing Title VI shall consider the following:

(i) the non-legally binding working definition of anti-Semitism adopted on May 26, 2016, by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA), which states, "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities"; and
(ii) the "Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism" identified by the IHRA, to the extent that any examples might be useful as evidence of discriminatory intent.
(b) In considering the materials described in subsections (a)(i) and (a)(ii) of this section, agencies shall not diminish or infringe upon any right protected under Federal law or under the First Amendment. As with all other Title VI complaints, the inquiry into whether a particular act constitutes discrimination prohibited by Title VI will require a detailed analysis of the allegations.

Sec. 3. Additional Authorities Prohibiting Anti-Semitic Discrimination.
Within 120 days of the date of this order, the head of each agency charged with enforcing Title VI shall submit a report to the President, through the Assistant to the President for Domestic Policy, identifying additional nondiscrimination authorities within its enforcement authority with respect to which the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism could be considered.

Sec. 4. Rule of Construction.
Nothing in this order shall be construed to alter the evidentiary requirements pursuant to which an agency makes a determination that conduct, including harassment, amounts to actionable discrimination, or to diminish or infringe upon the rights protected under any other provision of law.

Sec. 5. General Provisions.
(a) Nothing in this order shall be construed to impair or otherwise affect: (i) the authority granted by law to an executive department or agency, or the head thereof; or (ii) the functions of the Director of the Office of Management and Budget relating to budgetary, administrative, or legislative proposals.
(b) This order shall be implemented consistent with applicable law and subject to the availability of appropriations.
(c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United States, its departments, agencies, or entities, its officers, employees, or agents, or any other person.

Also, an opinion:
No, the Trump Administration Is Not Redefining Judaism as a Nationality

I think he makes a persuasive case, even though the Contemporary Examples of Anti-Semitism has some problematic elements (which I don't think come to a head here).

[Gravlen]

This should be obvious, it's self-determination, not Trump-determination.

The EO doesn't seem to imply that, though Trump's past rhetoric on the matter has been slippery and problematic. Hence why Trump probably didn't write the EO.

Also, it should be mentioned that Trump has fallen afoul of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance’s definition of anti-semetism through speech which fits well with their contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life.

[Vassenor]

So who writes Executive Orders then?

Those aren't laws Vassenor, no matter how much the executive would want them to be :^)

But the subject of this discussion is an Executive Order.

[Ifreann]

I have no issue with Jewish self-determination.

Then this EO wouldn't impact you and your activism given the definition of Antisemitism in use.

Telling American citizens that they are dual nationality American-Jewish citizens, not because they have chosen to be such but because the President wants to ban legitimate political protests, violates that right.

The EO doesn't grant Jewish Americans dual citizenship or insinuate in any way that American Jews and Israelis are synonymous with one another. It merely reiterates that Jewish Americans, like all other Jewish people, have a right to national self-determination and that attempts to mitigate that right are discriminatory even when a particular Jewish American may have no desire to exercise said right. And that's before we get into all the racist language a lot of these groups use.

Interpreting Judaism as a nationality does mean that Jewish Americans have another nationality in addition to their American nationality. A Jewish nationality, which is not the same as Israeli citizenship. This is a nationality without a nation, invented entirely for the purpose of shutting down protests and thus winning favour with AIPAC and Zionist Christians.

This should be obvious, it's self-determination, not Trump-determination.

The EO doesn't seem to imply that, though Trump's past rhetoric on the matter has been slippery and problematic. Hence why Trump probably didn't write the EO.

Trump didn't write it because he's illiterate. It's still his signature on the bottom, he is the one making this order, so he is the one telling Jews that their religion is now their nationality, whether they want that to be so or not.

[Myrensis]

The EO doesn't grant Jewish Americans dual citizenship or insinuate in any way that American Jews and Israelis are synonymous with one another. It merely reiterates that Jewish Americans, like all other Jewish people, have a right to national self-determination and that attempts to mitigate that right are discriminatory

"It doesn't suggest that Jews aren't real Americans or have other loyalties, it just says that they have the right act on behalf of nations other than the US! How could anyone possible misconstrue that?"

It's admittedly a clever move by Trump..which really means someone else in his administration. It manages to pander to Israel while simultaneously throwing red meat to his fascist 'fine people' fanboys because see, even President Trump knows the Jews aren't really loyal to America!

[Gravlen]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

[Gormwood]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

So where did he divert the money from to pay this off?

[Fahran]

Interpreting Judaism as a nationality does mean that Jewish Americans have another nationality in addition to their American nationality. A Jewish nationality, which is not the same as Israeli citizenship. This is a nationality without a nation, invented entirely for the purpose of shutting down protests and thus winning favour with AIPAC and Zionist Christians.

I would encourage you to read Gravlen's source above as well as the text of the executive order. There has been no attempt, conscious or otherwise, to redefine Judaism as a nationality. Essentially, this would effect people that we all know are actually Anti-Semites masquerading as champions of human rights.

Trump didn't write it because he's illiterate. It's still his signature on the bottom, he is the one making this order, so he is the one telling Jews that their religion is now their nationality, whether they want that to be so or not.

Except that's not what the executive order is telling them and is not the argument to which Trump is lending his name.

[Fahran]

"It doesn't suggest that Jews aren't real Americans or have other loyalties, it just says that they have the right act on behalf of nations other than the US! How could anyone possible misconstrue that?"

1. That wasn't the argument I made. The US would not prevent me from making aliyah and would not prevent a British immigrant from returning home either. I'm merely asserting that the United States historically acknowledges, on paper at least, a universal right to national self-determination. When you deny a specific group of people that right, it's a pretty safe bet that you're intention is to be ethnically discriminatory. That was my argument, at least in this specific case. Trump has engaged in the dual loyalty cannard in the past but that's not what this executive order is doing. Beyond that, you can't discriminate against people on the basis of their national origin. BDS and similar groups might run afoul of that because a lot of them do actually hate Jews and Israelis.

2. Read the text of the executive order and tell me what section would stifle legitimate criticisms of Israel.

It's admittedly a clever move by Trump..which really means someone else in his administration. It manages to pander to Israel while simultaneously throwing red meat to his fascist 'fine people' fanboys because see, even President Trump knows the Jews aren't really loyal to America!

Except it doesn't actually do any of that. It's clever because it pleases his base and makes asses of his more foolish enemies. A lot of the people who are going to see red and ramble about free speech are going to look like they stood with Antisemitism when people actually read the text of the executive order and realize that it's not too distinct from what Obama or Trudeau have implemented in the past without objections from anyone who isn't under suspicion of hating Jewish.

[Fahran]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

To be honest, he deserved that.

[Cannot think of a name]

In lighter news, it's a good day for Trump as he, today, have paid the $2 million in damages he was required to pay after admitting to misusing money in a charity he controlled. The President of the United States is still not allowed to run a charity, however, and has to seek permission from the courts if he ever wishes to do so again.

Trump 2020!

So where did he divert the money from to pay this off?

The campaign, probably.