MAGAThread XVII: All Things NOT Impeachment

[Antityranicals]

Antitryranicals the leftists anti Trumpers are never going to agree with us on Trump.

No matter what comments we make, what articles we post, what sources we post, or what videos that speak for themselves we present. Trust me on this one, I have tried very hard, and it does not work. They all tell me my comments, articles and sources are wrong and they are right because they have the truth on their side. At least one or more fellow nation of ours has told this, in many similar ways, trust me on this one.

Provide us a source that President Trump didn't withhold aid, and that their was an ongoing US investigation into misconduct by Hunter and Joe Biden that needed Ukrainian cooperation.

Provide a source that he didn't do something? How does that work? Look at the transcript. Here's a URL, if you'd like.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... raine.html

[Spirit of Hope]

I also read the transcript, before the media pounced, it's true. Factually.

Quote where in the transcript Mr. Trump threatens to withhold aid. If you can, I'll admit I'm wrong. But I literally just reread it, to make sure I wasn't making a fool of myself.

Trump didn't do it in the transcript? President Trump had already withheld the aid? When talking about aid he asks for a favor? Other witnesses have stated that in other venues representatives of President Trump explicitly linked aid and an investigation? Those are all things that have happened.

[Telconi]

Quote where in the transcript Mr. Trump threatens to withhold aid. If you can, I'll admit I'm wrong. But I literally just reread it, to make sure I wasn't making a fool of myself.

Trump didn't do it in the transcript? President Trump had already withheld the aid? When talking about aid he asks for a favor? Other witnesses have stated that in other venues representatives of President Trump explicitly linked aid and an investigation? Those are all things that have happened.

Yeah but working a favor from a foreign government doesn't seem to be bribery. We do that all the time.

[Antityranicals]

Quote where in the transcript Mr. Trump threatens to withhold aid. If you can, I'll admit I'm wrong. But I literally just reread it, to make sure I wasn't making a fool of myself.

Trump didn't do it in the transcript? President Trump had already withheld the aid? When talking about aid he asks for a favor? Other witnesses have stated that in other venues representatives of President Trump explicitly linked aid and an investigation? Those are all things that have happened.

Even if that's true, the actions of Trump team members aren't Trump's actions. And even if they were, this still all falls under the take care clause! It would have the same constitutionality of hiring a detective!

[Greater Miami Shores]

He did not withhold aid! Read the transcript! That's a straight lie!

Factually wrong.

I agree with Antityranicals, but according to the leftists anti Trumpers we are factually wrong. If we present any counter evidence, we are still factually wrong, according to them.

[Spirit of Hope]

Trump didn't do it in the transcript? President Trump had already withheld the aid? When talking about aid he asks for a favor? Other witnesses have stated that in other venues representatives of President Trump explicitly linked aid and an investigation? Those are all things that have happened.

Even if that's true, the actions of Trump team members aren't Trump's actions. And even if they were, this still all falls under the take care clause! It would have the same constitutionality of hiring a detective!

If President Trump ordered it, then President Trump is at fault for it. Again, there is no evidence to indicate any illegal actions by the Biden's, and there was no ongoing Justice Department investigation that needed Ukrainian help.

[Kowani]

Factually wrong, as admitted by the president’s own team.

I don't care if Mike Pence himself said it, it doesn't make it true! Why don't you read the transcript? I'm not at all surprised that members of Trump's team caved, or that they didn't know the facts of the case, and simply believed the media narrative.

So, several things:
1) The transcript isn’t an exact record, as noted in the transcript itself.
2) Because it’s been confirmed by multiple people-Trump’s team, Ukraine, the Pentagon, we can assume the aid was withheld.
3) Perhaps not literally everything was discussed in the transcript?

Factually wrong.

I agree with Antityranicals, but according to the leftists anti Trumpers we are factually wrong. If we present any counter evidence, we are still factually wrong, according to them.

So where’s your evidence?

[Greater Miami Shores]

Even if that's true, the actions of Trump team members aren't Trump's actions. And even if they were, this still all falls under the take care clause! It would have the same constitutionality of hiring a detective!

If President Trump ordered it, then President Trump is at fault for it. Again, there is no evidence to indicate any illegal actions by the Biden's, and there was no ongoing Justice Department investigation that needed Ukrainian help.

Just like their is no evidence President Trump is guilty beyond a doubt and hearsay. No pressures, no quid pro quo and no blackmail according to President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky, a former comedian who said, it should have been on a video not on a phone call, lol good joke Volodymyr Zelensky.

I know here I go again, my mind is like a stuck computer.

[Spirit of Hope]

If President Trump ordered it, then President Trump is at fault for it. Again, there is no evidence to indicate any illegal actions by the Biden's, and there was no ongoing Justice Department investigation that needed Ukrainian help.

Just like their is no evidence President Trump is guilty beyond a doubt and hearsay. No pressures, no quid pro quo and no blackmail according to President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky, a former comedian who said, it should have been on a video not on a phone call, lol good joke Volodymyr Zelensky.

I know here I go again, my mind is like a stuck computer.

Except we have witnesses that say something illegal happened with regards to Ukraine, the big question is how involved was President Trump? The Ambassador to the EU has said he pushed a quid pro Quo, and that has been backed up by multiple other witnesses. Was he ordered to do so by President Trump, or Guiliani? Why did President Trump withhold aid, was it for legitimate reasons or illegal ones?

Meanwhile there is no evidence that Joe Biden worked to end the investigation into the business his son was working for, and evidence that the Obama administration was pushing for that investigation to take place.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Just like their is no evidence President Trump is guilty beyond a doubt and hearsay. No pressures, no quid pro quo and no blackmail according to President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky, a former comedian who said, it should have been on a video not on a phone call, lol good joke Volodymyr Zelensky.

I know here I go again, my mind is like a stuck computer.

Except we have witnesses that say something illegal happened with regards to Ukraine, the big question is how involved was President Trump? The Ambassador to the EU has said he pushed a quid pro Quo, and that has been backed up by multiple other witnesses. Was he ordered to do so by President Trump, or Guiliani? Why did President Trump withhold aid, was it for legitimate reasons or illegal ones?

Meanwhile there is no evidence that Joe Biden worked to end the investigation into the business his son was working for, and evidence that the Obama administration was pushing for that investigation to take place.

Both sides have witnesses and Democrat saints Adam Schiff and the committee will block any witnesses of the Republicans they don't like, Back to Fist Base here we go again, and I am not talking about myself this time.

[Cannot think of a name]

Trump didn't do it in the transcript? President Trump had already withheld the aid? When talking about aid he asks for a favor? Other witnesses have stated that in other venues representatives of President Trump explicitly linked aid and an investigation? Those are all things that have happened.

Even if that's true, the actions of Trump team members aren't Trump's actions. And even if they were, this still all falls under the take care clause! It would have the same constitutionality of hiring a detective!

In order for that to be valid there would have to be an investigation being conducted by the United States that it wanted Ukraine's help with. But there wasn't. Trump was pushing specifically for a public announcement that the Ukraine was investigating Biden. That doesn't fall under 'take care' as it wasn't part of an American investigation. It didn't assist the United States in anything it was doing, so the announcement's only purpose was to undermine a political rival. If the administration had reliable evidence that Hunter or Joe Biden had done something wrong they could open their own investigation and seek assistance from allies. But that's not what happened. Because there isn't evidence they did anything wrong, part of the pressure to remove the prosecutor was that he wasn't pursuing cases like the ones against Bursima and was part of an international effort, not expressly Joe Bidens.

This doesn't hold water once you actually know what happened. "I didn't say 'Simon Says'" is not going to work as a defense.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Cannot think of a name";p="36426592"][/quote]
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I do happen to have bad eye sight, those little quote tags and other tags do bother my eye sight at times, so I like to xxx the tags. I think my friend and supporter Antityranicals left, because he gave up arguing his point that President Trump did nothing wrong and nothing has been proven against him. Not because he does not think he is right, but because he thinks he cant convince you guys President Trump did nothing wrong. At least this is why I think he left.

See I am not the only who agrees with my views on this issue, their are millions of us across the nation and some of us on NS. but we are out numbered at least 21.73 % to 78.27 % percent by my estimate. I love math, statistics, percentages %, bookkeeping and accounting my profession. It is on my sig.

[San Lumen]

Except we have witnesses that say something illegal happened with regards to Ukraine, the big question is how involved was President Trump? The Ambassador to the EU has said he pushed a quid pro Quo, and that has been backed up by multiple other witnesses. Was he ordered to do so by President Trump, or Guiliani? Why did President Trump withhold aid, was it for legitimate reasons or illegal ones?

Meanwhile there is no evidence that Joe Biden worked to end the investigation into the business his son was working for, and evidence that the Obama administration was pushing for that investigation to take place.

Both sides have witnesses and Democrat saints Adam Schiff and the committee will block any witnesses of the Republicans they don't like, Back to Fist Base here we go again, and I am not talking about myself this time.

Thet want to call Joe and Hunter Biden. There is no reason too as they did nothing wrong. if Republicans actually cared about the Republic they would be cooperating with the investigation and then vote to convict him in the Senate effectively stabbing their base in the back. They would be upholding their oath of office. right now they are doing that. They care more about not having primary challengers.

In my view the Senate pages should stop working and any staffer of a Republican member of congress should do work unless they start cooperating with the investigation and they vote too remove. Let them get their own darn water on the Senate floor.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Both sides have witnesses and Democrat saints Adam Schiff and the committee will block any witnesses of the Republicans they don't like, Back to Fist Base here we go again, and I am not talking about myself this time.

Thet want to call Joe and Hunter Biden. There is no reason too as they did nothing wrong. if Republicans actually cared about the Republic they would be cooperating with the investigation and then vote to convict him in the Senate effectively stabbing their base in the back. They would be upholding their oath of office. right now they are doing that. They care more about not having primary challengers.

In my view the Senate pages should stop working and any staffer of a Republican member of congress should do work unless they start cooperating with the investigation and they vote too remove. Let them get their own darn water on the Senate floor.

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My darn bad eye sight again.
San Lumen on this particular post I did not even mention Joe Biden or his son Hunter Biden the Kid as President Trump calls him, so your argument seems to not be valid in this particular case. I am talking about Witnesses in Defense of President Trump the Democrats saints led by Adam Schiff would block from testifying in Defense of President Trump in general terms not specific terms. In this particular case I never said anything about Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden who President Trump calls the Kid.

So your point on this post seems to not be valid.

[San Lumen]

Thet want to call Joe and Hunter Biden. There is no reason too as they did nothing wrong. if Republicans actually cared about the Republic they would be cooperating with the investigation and then vote to convict him in the Senate effectively stabbing their base in the back. They would be upholding their oath of office. right now they are doing that. They care more about not having primary challengers.

In my view the Senate pages should stop working and any staffer of a Republican member of congress should do work unless they start cooperating with the investigation and they vote too remove. Let them get their own darn water on the Senate floor.

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My darn bad eye sight again.
San Lumen on this particular post I did not even mention Joe Biden or his son Hunter Biden the Kid as President Trump calls him, so your argument seems to not be valid in this particular case. I am talking about Witnesses in Defense of President Trump the Democrats saints led by Adam Schiff would block from testifying in Defense of President Trump in general terms not specific terms. In this particular case I never said anything about Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden who President Trump calls the Kid.

So your point on this post seems to not be valid.

who are they blocking? And just because Trump calls someone names doesn't mean you should. Its totally inappropriate

[Greater Miami Shores]

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My darn bad eye sight again.
San Lumen on this particular post I did not even mention Joe Biden or his son Hunter Biden the Kid as President Trump calls him, so your argument seems to not be valid in this particular case. I am talking about Witnesses in Defense of President Trump the Democrats saints led by Adam Schiff would block from testifying in Defense of President Trump in general terms not specific terms. In this particular case I never said anything about Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden who President Trump calls the Kid.

So your point on this post seems to not be valid.

who are they blocking? And just because Trump calls someone names doesn't mean you should. Its totally inappropriate

I don't have their names handy, nor do I Remember all the names the Republicans would wish to call to testify in defense of President Trump. But Spirit of Hope who believes President Trump to be guilty, says the Republicans on the committee can call for a committee vote. But the problem is Democrat Adam Schiff and the Democrat saints have a majority on the committee and can block any witnesses the Republicans wish to call in defense of President Trump the Democrat saints don't like.

Back to the Problem.

[Spirit of Hope]

who are they blocking? And just because Trump calls someone names doesn't mean you should. Its totally inappropriate

I don't have their names handy, nor do I Remember all the names the Republicans would wish to call to testify in defense of President Trump. But Spirit of Hope who believes President Trump to be guilty, says the Republicans on the committee can call for a committee vote. But the problem is Democrat Adam Schiff and the Democrat saints have a majority on the committee and can block any witnesses the Republicans wish to call in defense of President Trump the Democrat saints don't like.

Back to the Problem.

If Adam Schiff blocks every witness, which he hasn't so far, and if Democrats on the committee vote down every witness, which they haven't done, then you might have an argument. But they haven't done those things so you don't have an argument. Meanwhile President Trump has ordered people not to participate in the investigation, which he has no legal authority to do. But you aren't complaining about Trump blocking witnesses, only that Democrats might block witnesses.

[The Black Forrest]

Thet want to call Joe and Hunter Biden. There is no reason too as they did nothing wrong. if Republicans actually cared about the Republic they would be cooperating with the investigation and then vote to convict him in the Senate effectively stabbing their base in the back. They would be upholding their oath of office. right now they are doing that. They care more about not having primary challengers.

In my view the Senate pages should stop working and any staffer of a Republican member of congress should do work unless they start cooperating with the investigation and they vote too remove. Let them get their own darn water on the Senate floor.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
My darn bad eye sight again.
San Lumen on this particular post I did not even mention Joe Biden or his son Hunter Biden the Kid as President Trump calls him, so your argument seems to not be valid in this particular case. I am talking about Witnesses in Defense of President Trump the Democrats saints led by Adam Schiff would block from testifying in Defense of President Trump in general terms not specific terms. In this particular case I never said anything about Joe Biden and his son Hunter Biden who President Trump calls the Kid.

So your point on this post seems to not be valid.

Considering most of the Republicans are not interested in the truth; their “witnesses” are probably dubious at best.

Trump is a twat and the fact he calls Hunter the kid doesn’t mean you should.

[The Rich Port]

It is frankly disgusting that they're still digging for this whistleblower when both, he doesn't have to, and he shouldn't, because Trump fanatics will send him death threats and try to ruin his life for the crime of not toeing the general line of the party.

I've heard plans by Trump to publish his Little Orange Book that all Americans are required to own and read, full of all of his ridiculous, poorly written, grammatically horrifying sayings.

[Cannot think of a name]

I've heard plans by Trump to publish his Little Orange Book that all Americans are required to own and read, full of all of his ridiculous, poorly written, grammatically horrifying sayings.

I'm certain that is not a thing.

[Vassenor]

I've heard plans by Trump to publish his Little Orange Book that all Americans are required to own and read, full of all of his ridiculous, poorly written, grammatically horrifying sayings.

I'm certain that is not a thing.

Pretty sure that was a joke.

[Gravlen]

But is it Treason, Bribery, or another high crime of misdemeanor?

You could definitely make a case for bribery.

I don't think you could.

Extortion, on the other hand, you could make a case for. I'm not convinced that you could get it over the line and secure a criminal conviction, but you could certainly argue for it.

Important to note, however:

You don’t even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role […]. Impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.

[Gravlen]

He literally said I want you to do me a favor. People have testified he held up aid in exchange for an investigation into Biden. He literally called on the White House Lawn for China and Ukraine to interfere in our election. That is illegal under US law.

No, he didn't. He asked for the president's help in getting to the bottom of certain criminal acts of Americans.

Which criminal acts did he ask for help getting to the bottom of? There is no evidence that any US law enforcement entity has investigated Biden or his son regarding corruption in Ukraine, so why would he be asking for that?

Why did he demand the Ukrainian president publicly announce investigations into Mr Biden, and the origins of the Russia probe, in order to receive a White House visit?

That falls squarely underneath the president's duty to "Take care that the laws be faithfully executed."

What laws?
Why didn't he go through regular procedures to do so? If a domestic investigation into a US citizen requires information from a foreign government, US law enforcement has specific processes to request that information - including, but not limited to, agreements like mutual legal assistance treaties. Why didn't he go that route?

The· President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There-are a lot. of things that went on, the·
:whole situation..a[…]There's a lot of talk about Biden's son,. that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great.

Sounds like he’s asking for information to me.
The thing is, that’s illegal.

No it isn't! How is asking for information illegal? That doesn't even make sense!

Because the favor in question is not a policy favor for the United States, but a political favor for Trump. This is the overt solicitation by the president of a foreign investigation into a political opponent. That's abuse of power and a violation of his constitutional duties.

Factually wrong, as admitted by the president’s own team.

I don't care if Mike Pence himself said it, it doesn't make it true! Why don't you read the transcript? I'm not at all surprised that members of Trump's team caved, or that they didn't know the facts of the case, and simply believed the media narrative.

Is this the "Trump (and his team) is too stupid and incompetent to commit crimes" defence?

[Gravlen]

I love that you're trying to teach this guy how to debate. But he worked on the Reagan campaign. What is it they say about old dogs? And every time you quote him those of us who have him on ignore have to see his posts.

If you want I can begin to spoiler my replies to them.

Yes, please and thank you.

[Zurkerx]

A Plausible Path to Removing Trump From Office?

So basically, while Republicans can write the rules in the Senate, apparently three could defect and demand for a secret vote. This is highly improbable but I do think that the likes of Romney, Murkowski, and Collins could break Republicans in calling in witnesses and ensuring there are fairer rules and process in place (lead by example as they say). The thing is, the VP wouldn't get to vote so that means Republicans can't afford to lose three votes (Democrats have 45; Republicans 53; Independents 2). I'm hoping those Senators ensure McConnell and Graham don't ruin the process.