NationStates

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:04 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Sounds like conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity.

They gave money to Uganda sounds more like something pulled out of someone's ass.

Right, forgot you enjoy getting a rise out of people.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:06 pm**

It'd need a very precise legal formula to allow foreign aid and assistance projects but curtail religious and politics influence through the programs while also satisfying domestic protections on free speech.

The sort of precise formula that'd be difficult to arrive at through the necessary bipartisan legislation, frankly, so unless the African Union want to do something it's time for a sternly worded memorandum of disapproval from America and pals before going back to sleep.

I presume that's what we mean by "action", as we must have learnt our lesson on "humanitarian military interventions" after Iraq and Libya, and sanctions will just speed up the transformation of Africa into Chinese client states which is against the grand strategy which the leader of the free world must - surely - be hiding somewhere under his hairpiece.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:08 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:They gave money to Uganda sounds more like something pulled out of someone's ass.

Right, forgot you enjoy getting a rise out of people.

Do you have a source that the Evangelicals bribed the Government of Uganda for this law ?

Failing that do you have a source that Evangelicals threatened to withhold missionary work unless this law was passed ?

No such source exists because otherwise that would have been brought up when Scott Lively was sued by the gay people of Uganda.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:11 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Sounds like Uganda needs a regime change.

It is a Democratically elected government regime changing them would be against international law.

Maybe if they had a lot of oil and were threatening to cut off the world from that oil it could be made legal.

Pretty sure genocide is also against international law.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:13 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
It is a Democratically elected government regime changing them would be against international law.

Maybe if they had a lot of oil and were threatening to cut off the world from that oil it could be made legal.

Pretty sure genocide is also against international law.

Yep though sadly when targeted against the LGBT community it is rarely if ever acted upon by the international community.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:14 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Right, forgot you enjoy getting a rise out of people.

Do you have a source that the Evangelicals bribed the Government of Uganda for this law ?

Failing that do you have a source that Evangelicals threatened to withhold missionary work unless this law was passed ?

No such source exists because otherwise that would have been brought up when Scott Lively was sued by the gay people of Uganda.

You find nothing wrong with lobbying for legal persecution and execution of LGBTs for nonviolence. Speaks volumes.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:23 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
Do you have a source that the Evangelicals bribed the Government of Uganda for this law ?

Failing that do you have a source that Evangelicals threatened to withhold missionary work unless this law was passed ?

No such source exists because otherwise that would have been brought up when Scott Lively was sued by the gay people of Uganda.

You find nothing wrong with lobbying for legal persecution and execution of LGBTs for nonviolence. Speaks volumes.

Morally absolutely. Legally no.

Also you are now moving the goal posts previously it was about money. Now its strictly about lobbying, You get to lobby for anything.

In this particular case the Lobbying was done publicly in the form of public speeches by Scott Lively. He spoke on the gay Agenda in a manner eerily reminiscent of Adolf Hitler except where Hitler might have spoke about Jewish people Lively spoke about gay people. Unlike Hitler however Lively did not attempt to become dictator of Uganda he just gave his gay conspiracy speeches and went back to America.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:27 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Gormwood wrote:You find nothing wrong with lobbying for legal persecution and execution of LGBTs for nonviolence. Speaks volumes.

Morally absolutely. Legally no.

Also you are now moving the goal posts previously it was about money. Now its strictly about lobbying, You get to lobby for anything.

In this particular case the Lobbying was done publicly in the form of public speeches by Scott Lively. He spoke on the gay Agenda in a manner eerily reminiscent of Adolf Hitler except where Hitler might have spoke about Jewish people Lively spoke about gay people. Unlike Hitler however Lively did not attempt to become dictator of Uganda he just gave his gay conspiracy speeches and went back to America.

I never said it was about money.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:27 pm**

There is a demonstrable link between American evangelists and this extreme hate movement in Uganda and they need to be taken to account for it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 93593.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/its-n ... ht-africa/

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:32 pm**

Genivaria wrote:There is a demonstrable link between American evangelists and this extreme hate movement in Uganda and they need to be taken to account for it.
Critics of the legislation say it is not homosexuality that has been imported from the West, but homophobia. Roger Ross Williams, the director of God Loves Uganda, a documentary about the influence of conservative US Christians in the East African nation, said, “The anti-homosexuality bill would never have come about without the involvement of American fundamentalist evangelicals.”

One of the first to investigate links between American conservatives and the African anti-gay movement was Kipya Kaoma, a Zambian clergyman living in Boston. Homosexuality was illegal in Uganda under existing colonial laws, he explained, “But nobody was ever arrested or prosecuted based on those old laws. People turned a blind eye to it. Homosexuality was not a political issue.”

That changed in 2009, Rev Kaoma said, when a group of American evangelicals led by Pastor Scott Lively, a self-proclaimed expert on the “gay movement”, held a series of talks in Uganda. Mr Lively warned audiences that the “evil institution” of homosexuality sought to “prey upon” and recruit Ugandan children in a bid to “defeat the marriage-based society”.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 93593.html
As the gay rights movement has gained traction in the United States, the more virulently homophobic ideologies of the religious right have been pushed further out of the mainstream and into fringe territory. But as their influence has waned at home, right-wing evangelists from the United States have been flexing their sanctimonious muscles influencing policymakers in Africa.

For years now, evangelical activists from the United States have been injecting themselves into African politics, speaking out against homosexuality and cheering on antigay legislation on the continent. The influence of these groups has been well documented in Uganda. The now-defunct Exodus International, for example, sent Don Schmierer, a board member, to Uganda in 2009 to speak at a conference alongside Scott Lively, a pastor who was later sued by a Ugandan gay rights group for his role in promoting human rights violations against LGBTQ people. The two participated in a disturbing antigay conference, where speakers blamed homosexuals for the rise of Nazism and the Rwandan genocide, among other abhorrent acts. Tony Perkins of the Family Research Council, a hard-right Christian group that is active in US politics as well, similarly supported antigay laws in Uganda. At the peak of the controversy over the “kill the gays” bill, Perkins praised the Ugandan president for “leading his nation to repentance.”

https://www.thenation.com/article/its-n ... ht-africa/

So he publicly advocated for things you don't like.

Yes that would be what the first amendment protects.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:33 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
It is a Democratically elected government regime changing them would be against international law.

Maybe if they had a lot of oil and were threatening to cut off the world from that oil it could be made legal.

Pretty sure genocide is also against international law.

yeah please don't send our soldiers to uganda. They've been in the middle East and we've talked about sending them to venezuela. They don't need to be sent to a place even more miserable.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:34 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Genivaria wrote:There is a demonstrable link between American evangelists and this extreme hate movement in Uganda and they need to be taken to account for it.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 93593.html

https://www.thenation.com/article/its-n ... ht-africa/

So he publicly advocated for things you don't like.

Yes that would be what the first amendment protects.

The first amendment protects incitement of violence?

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:37 pm**

Necroghastia wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
So he publicly advocated for things you don't like.

Yes that would be what the first amendment protects.

The first amendment protects incitement of violence?

The exception to free speech for incitement to violence it is imminent lawless action.

Did he call on the crowd to immediately go lynch some gays ? No. Then we are in protected speech land.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:43 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:
The first amendment protects incitement of violence?

The exception to free speech for incitement to violence it is imminent lawless action.

Did he call on the crowd to immediately go lynch some gays ? No. Then we are in protected speech land.

I believe the line is a little more gray then that. That being said, there is nothing illegal about advocating certain actions should fall under the death penalty.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:48 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:The exception to free speech for incitement to violence it is imminent lawless action.

Did he call on the crowd to immediately go lynch some gays ? No. Then we are in protected speech land.

I believe the line is a little more gray then that. That being said, there is nothing illegal about advocating certain actions should fall under the death penalty.

Yes I am going to use less specif language when dealing with non lawyers. Otherwise I get an endless trail of but this, sorry this doesn't apply because of that and that.

I only want specifics when I am dealing with derivatives because then I am getting paid for it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:57 pm**

Greed and Death wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:I believe the line is a little more gray then that. That being said, there is nothing illegal about advocating certain actions should fall under the death penalty.

Yes I am going to use less specif language when dealing with non lawyers. Otherwise I get an endless trail of but this, sorry this doesn't apply because of that and that.

I only want specifics when I am dealing with derivatives because then I am getting paid for it.

Makes sense to me.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:11 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
Do you have a source that the Evangelicals bribed the Government of Uganda for this law ?

Failing that do you have a source that Evangelicals threatened to withhold missionary work unless this law was passed ?

No such source exists because otherwise that would have been brought up when Scott Lively was sued by the gay people of Uganda.

You find nothing wrong with lobbying for legal persecution and execution of LGBTs for nonviolence. Speaks volumes.

He literally just said he found something wrong with how the international community does nothing when LGBT people are attacked in this way. Right above your post.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:33 pm**

Neutraligon wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:
Yes I am going to use less specif language when dealing with non lawyers. Otherwise I get an endless trail of but this, sorry this doesn't apply because of that and that.

I only want specifics when I am dealing with derivatives because then I am getting paid for it.

Makes sense to me.

I could be baited into but I don't see going past Brandenburg v Ohio as worthwhile.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:42 pm**

Luminesa wrote:
Gormwood wrote:You find nothing wrong with lobbying for legal persecution and execution of LGBTs for nonviolence. Speaks volumes.

He literally just said he found something wrong with how the international community does nothing when LGBT people are attacked in this way. Right above your post.

Do not mistake me telling you the reality of the situation for acceptance of it or lack of sympathy.

Ideally the international community can get Uganda to repeal these laws. But it will at most be trade sanctions that will be minimally effective as I see China and Russia not giving a rats behind and using this as a reason to increase their influence.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:45 pm**

Yet another reason Western civilization is superior to African cultures.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:49 pm**

The Alma Mater wrote:
Kaystein wrote:
What does Christianity have to do with this? It's a government imposing the law; not a church.

A government motivated by evangelical christianity. They are pretty open on why they want to kill da gayz: it is because Jesus wants them to.

I can assure you Jesus wants nothing of the sort.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:50 pm**

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Yet another reason Western civilization is superior to African cultures.

Nice racism you've got there.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 4:55 pm**

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Yet another reason Western civilization is superior to African cultures.

That we the westerners drew random lines across the country so countries do not have anything to tie them together so they end up allowing religion and homophobia do it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:18 pm**

Salus Maior wrote:
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:Yet another reason Western civilization is superior to African cultures.

Nice racism you've got there.

No comments here about race; it isn't just blacks that call for genocide of homosexuals, it's just that the west has largely moved on from it.

Posted: **Sat Oct 12, 2019 5:21 pm**

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Nice racism you've got there.

No comments here about race; it isn't just blacks that call for genocide of homosexuals, it's just that the west has largely moved on from it.

Which is why Evangelicals travelled to Africa to agitate and lobby in favor of killing LGBTs. But let's pretend it was entirely an African idea.

NationStates

Uganda to reinstate death penalty for Homosexuality